Do you think Character first church o...

Do you think Character first church or cult ?

Created by forgiving husband on Dec 11, 2007

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cult

church

a business to make money

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forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#1 Dec 14, 2007
I have been asked what I believe. I did note vote but here are some facts that point to it being a business wrapped in the cloth of a realign. Before I go further it’s not the ones who jumped on board to try to solve issues within their city or town, not saying they have low I .Q or any thing like that. My beef is with the ones behind the program and promote it. With not all the facts put out.
How can this be the answer to all the issues to sell it to other cities They are pitting it out all over the country. Look what it has done for Ok. City

You would think in the home of Character first there would be none of the issues they claim will fix every thing. Here are some Statements from character first news letters. The facts don’t back up their claims.

Strengthening Families.
.I think this would include our elderly in nursing homes.
Yet Oklahoma rated at low rating
. http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1107/476578 ....

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/oklahoma-city ...

May be getting sex offenders out of nursing homes.

Lowe crime rate. Check out the latest stats

Oklahoma City Crime Report

Murder: 49
Forcible Rape: 365
Robbery: 1,381
Aggravated Assault: 2,847
Burglary: 8,300
Larceny or Theft: 35,367
Car Theft: 3,928
Arson: 208
Data Source:
2003 FBI Report of Offenses
Look at the ones they are putting out as role models do as I say not as I do.
The Institute also teaches that if we honor these principles, God is required to honor us. All of the city’s problems could be attributed to its unwitting failure to honor these principles. If everyone had just gotten the formula right, God would have had to make me a success."

Next they will come out with that’s behind the ice storm.

In this article I would like to bring your attention to one statement.
http://newsok.com/article/3177534/1196896211
All six organizations preach a form of the "prosperity gospel," the belief that God wants his faithful followers to reap material rewards

The program How to Demonstrate Cautiousness at Church
•Avoiding listening to gossip or "bad reports" about church leaders or other members.
I think there may be another reason for this teaching.

Gothard has a unique strategy for marketing his own books and material -- you could only get them by attending his seminars.
In their own words it’s a business. A business is designed to make money.
How could it be non profit?
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#2 Dec 15, 2007
Character Counts! Last year, Arizona State Treasurer David Petersen stood in front of the International Building Cities of Character Conference t a keynote address. Inside the Character Training Institute's headquarters, Petersen took to the conference podium to tell how his state's Family Services Committee passed "Character Education Legislation." "All schools now have it implemented," he said. "We're fighting for the soul of this nation." Petersen added that he attributed his passion for character to a personal meeting with evangelist Bill Gothard, founder of Institute in Basic Life Principles. Petersen is now the focus of a theft and fraud inquiry alleging that he used his position and state funds to promote the character education program, a program to which he had financial ties.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opin...

Modeling is another approach in transmitting values. This is accomplished when people present themselves as attractive models that live by a certain set of values.

What about conflicting values and messages that are being sent to students from the ones being set up as mentors such as the developer of the program and others.

What the main problem with Peterson was is ethics. He promoted a private business on government time. That business employed his family members. He bullied employess with evangelizing and made them support his program. The program in question is also a problem. It is supposedly a character education program that is taught in public schools. In fact it is a proselytizing program designed to get past public school rules and proselytize to kids. It is run by someone who is not putting out facts and trickery if needed, the constitution scrapped, and U.S. run by the his version of what the bible means.

This, of course, is unconstitutional. By promoting this group, Peterson has violated his oath of office and should have been fired.
Petersen, a former state senator, fits the profile. But he bowed out of the treasurer's race in February after the Arizona Attorney General's Office seized a computer and other documents from his office. The move came after Petersen's former executive assistant sent a letter to legislative leaders and the Governor's Office alleging that the treasurer's family members and friends used state computers for campaign work and work for Character First, a private education program he had been associated with for several years.
.
State Treasurer David Petersen, who resigned from office as part of a guilty plea for failing to disclose income from a character-education non-profit.

prosperity gospel," the belief that God wants his faithful followers to reap material rewards
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#3 Dec 16, 2007
http://www.characterpitch.com/
Note the logo to the right.
Character pitch
Because Character is more caught than taught.
Than why are they trying to teach it ?
Another remark made on the page.
“To train a child in mind but not in morals is to educate a menace to society”
Theodore Roosevelt

The purpose of schools has and should always be that of education not to teach morals.

Don,t worry Oklahoma Schools Named 'Dropout Factories'

http://www.koco.com/news/14456045/detail.html

Will be blamed on lack of character not the fact they no longer put effort into teaching reading writing and math skills. Only good character to get grants and to have a reason why they fail.

This remark not ment to say teachers are not trying only they are only not given the resources they have to teach with.

December trait of the month
Perseverance
The act of preserving; in any thing undertaken; continued pursuit or prosecution of any business or enterprise begun

I must be of good character .I intend to continue putting out the truth of this business.

“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.(Hebrews 11:1)”

In this program there is a lot not seen except in their letters put out such as the evil cabbage patch doll.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Gothard seems to being doing just that.
anon

AOL

#4 Dec 16, 2007
forgiving husband,

Do you have a little OCD problem with Character First? Hey, look at your own poll results. Most people think it is a biz out to make a buck.

D.A.R.E. had folks thinking it was a great idea that would help keep kids away from drugs. A few decades later, data has proven it did nothing but suck money out of city coffers and give some well meaning cops soft time chatting with kids in classrooms. Character First is the adult version. Does every city want honest people on the payroll and their government free of corruption? Yes. Can Character First actually make that happen? No. Will they make some bucks before city officials find out how much "feeling" like they do some good costs? Yes. Will your posts on here stop that in any way? No.
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#5 Dec 16, 2007
The only way this will stop is if people know the truth. I agree thats it's a bussiness not a church of God. The way they have spread has affacted not only the school system but the justice system as well.
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#6 Dec 16, 2007
The only way the truth about the character first program is to let the people no the truth . yes it is a bussiness not a church of God. Deserving a non profit rating. It's not only in the school system providing conflicting message listen to what I say not as mentors do. But in the court system as well. I think there is more to the over crowding issue. Look at the partership of corp America one of the largest private Prison systems and character first. They are trying to say there is no such thing as seperation of church and state. This country was formed from people looking to be ably to prey the way they wanted. Not by a king who claimed his was the only one.
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#7 Dec 18, 2007
http://www.koco.com/news/14862812/detail.html

Using private prisons to ease inmate overcrowding was the preference expressed earlier this year by Senate Co-President Pro Tem Glenn Coffee, R-Oklahoma City, who opposed prison-building recommendations.

Some officials warn that it is dangerous to depend so much on private prisons that they gain leverage to force the state into increases in the cost for housing inmates.

I agree it would be dangerous in more than one way not only to gain leverage to force the state into increases in the cost for housing inmates but to rewrite the term against what the separation of church and state means.
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#8 Jan 19, 2008
Checking the results of my poll. It seems most are having the same problem of trying to decide between cult or bussiness.
With the stats of crime gangs still on the rise, coupled with child abuse and Domestic issues.
As well as Oklahoma being rated with the highested depression rating.
One has to wonder why there have been so many events that are linked to the character first program. Why no one has questioned the fact that every thing the program claims it fixes don,t.
Its interesting to me how certain events just seem to disappear from the media. Case in point there have been no up dates on school board issue.

How this could be in the home of character?
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#9 Jan 24, 2008
My poll seems to be having trouble showing results
Buss 49%
Cult 46%
Church 4%
Have no idea why my other posting double posted or why the last post disappeared.
When actions & words don't match
forgiving husband

United States

#10 Mar 31, 2008
New program puts character on lesson plan
With students assaulting teachers, phoning in bomb threats and joining gangs, & with none of the middle schools meeting federal benchmarks, Tony Warenzak wonders just how much character Richmond County's character education is instilling.
Since 2000, state law has required schools to integrate anti-bullying lessons & at least 27 character traits into classroom instruction. But use of the current character curriculum -- Character First!, rooted in the teachings of a Chicago-based evangelist has become scattershot, Richmond County schools Superintendent Dana Bedden said.
Mr. Warenzak, the proprietor of The Athenaeum bookstore on Monte Sano Avenue, is leading a drive to overhaul and reboot the program. Through his nonprofit, Augusta's Call to Character, he's in the early stages of a plan to form character committees in schools, set up adopt-a-school relationships with businesses and develop a speakers bureau to send volunteers to classrooms and student assemblies.
"For us, character is more than just a word on a marquee. It's a way of life. It's a paradigm that everybody buys into, with one voice."
My coment:
It's a paradigm that everybody buys into, with money as well. They are blaming the program for not working on the schools with so much emphasis on test scores you no learning . Which is why I thought they where going to school for.
Character education at Lamar had become defunct, teachers and administrators said. Fifth-grade teacher Darlene Gaines, who's worked there almost 20 years, recalls a lot of enthusiasm after Character First! was adopted.
"Once the hype died down, so did Character First!," Ms. Gaines said.
With so much emphasis on test scores and Criterion-Referenced Competency Tests, teachers started putting their white character notebooks aside, she said. Pupils aren't tested on it, so it didn't seem important.

First-year Principal Ben Motley said he's asked Mr. Warenzak to start by working with fifth-graders bound for Tubman Middle School, which has discipline problems and is one of the worst schools in the state under No Child Left Behind standards.
Character education has come and gone in American schools since the 1890s, school systems that don't comply could lose state funding.
The goal is to promote a functioning democracy, because a democracy's survival depends on its future citizens' good judgment, said Marvin Berkowitz, a character education professor at the University of Missouri-St. Louis.
My comment:
And here I thought the goal of going to school was to learn. And their future depended on how well they did it.
"Change must come from in here," he told the assembly with a palm on his chest.
He said he'll also pick & choose pieces of other programs, including Los Angeles-based Character Counts!, founded by ethicist Michael Josephson.
That curriculum is based on tenets of Bill Gothard, whose Institute in Basic Life Principles oversees a religious empire that includes centers for troubled youths, a home-school curriculum, an Internet filtering program, a Christian law school, orphanages, a paramilitary academy for emergency disaster responders & a medical training center. Some Christian cult-watch groups have criticized the Rev. Gothard's doctrines as overly legalistic & authoritarian.
"I know there's a lot of attack on what I've been trying to do over the years," the Rev. Gothard said. "It's just really amazing, because so much of it's untrue. And so that's only allowed us to deepen our message & widen the outreach of it, so I rejoice in that."
My comment:
Whats really amazing "Once the hype died down, so did Character First!," was because the whole truth was coming out.
http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/033008/m...
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#11 Apr 1, 2008
MinistryWatch.com Calls on Copeland and Dollar to Comply
By clubxzalt Editor • Apr 1st, 2008 • Category: News
The Senate Finance Committee announced today that two of the six televangelists who have been asked for information continue to refuse to comply, almost five months after the original request went out from Sen. Charles Grassley.
Atlanta-based Creflo Dollar has failed to provide any information to Sen. Grassley and Sen. Max Baucus, who joined Grassley in his call for financial transparency. Texas-based Kenneth Copeland has turned over some documents, but is nowhere near full compliance, according to a Grassley spokesperson.
“It is truly unconscionable that these ministries have failed to comply,” said Rusty Leonard, founder of MinistryWatch.com , a group that advocates for the rights of donors.“First of all, what Senators Grassley and Baucus are asking for is nothing more than what these ministries should be disclosing as a matter of course,” Leonard said.“But for five months to go by without even an attempt at compliance - as is the case with Creflo Dollar - is a true slap in the face both to the Senate Finance Committee and, tragically, to their own donors.”
According to Grassley’s office, four of the ministries are either in substantial compliance with the requests, or have taken significant steps toward compliance. Joyce Meyer Ministries has complied with all requests, and Benny Hinn has made significant progress in complying. Eddie Long and Paula and Randy White, who had been non-compliant, have taken significant new steps toward compliance, according to Grassley’s office.
“The fact that Sen. Baucus and Sen. Grassley worked together to on this new March 31 compliance deadline seems to have made a difference,” said Leonard.“Now the non-complying ministries know that Grassley and Baucus together could, without a vote of the additional members of the committee, issue subpoenas.”
Leonard added, though, that “it would be unfortunate if these Christian ministries were to have their non-compliance be their testimony to the world, rather than open and transparent dealings with both their donors and the Senate Finance Committee. The cloud of suspicion raised by this non-compliance affects not only the public’s perception of these ministries, but also undermines the reputations of the many ministries that do voluntarily inform their donors and others of their financial activities.”

http://content.clubxzalt.com/2008/04/01/minis...
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#12 Apr 4, 2008
WASHING ON -- Television ministers Kenneth Copeland & Creflo Dollar again have declined to answer questions sparked by news coverage of lavish lifestyles, according to a U.S. senator pushing the investigation.
Republican Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, however, played down the significance of Copeland's vow that he would go to jail before handing over certain information.
"That isn't unusual," Grassley, the ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, said in an interview. "I don't blame them for being cautious."
My comment;
I fail to see the need to be cautious still" Nothing has happen to the others over their concerns.
Citing his oversight of other nonprofit organizations and their tax status, the senator said Copeland's reaction is not all that different than the reactions received from others over the past five years.
"They wonder what you are up to. They wonder what do you want," Grassley said. "They don't understand what congressional oversight is, and, in the case of ministers, they are fearful of the First Amendment (issues)."
My comment there are several who wonder what they are up to and why they seem to want to hide behind first amendment issues only when its in their best interest.
When pressed on whether Copeland's vow to go to jail was a bit more unusual, Grassley said he did not want to comment on that specifically.He also declined to set
a timeline for dealing with Copeland & Dollar's refusal to answer questions or handling information from the ministries of Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Eddie Long & Paula & Randy White.
"There is no time limit for us to dwell on this stuff," Grassley said.
My comment: I hope he takes action before the election.
What is the point of setting dead line if it means nothing?
I believe people of faith should no all the facts.
"meaning all"
"And I want to make people like the Copelands feel as comfortable as they can. If they want to talk to me, I'd be even personally glad to talk to them because if they think we are up to some sort of mischief, I think I can satisfy them that we are just doing what our constitutional responsibilities are."
Representatives for Copeland & Dollar did not return phone calls.
My comment:
I don.t think they feel comfortable or will.
Copeland had supplied a packet of information, but Grassley's office said this week it did not provide answers to the senator's questions.
In a February letter to supporters, still posted on his ministry's Web site, Copeland made it clear he did not intend to comply with the Grassley requests. He cited Scripture in stating his ministry provides financial information to the Internal Revenue Service but not to others.
"If it were to come to it, I would go to jail before I would break my word on this."
According to Grassley, Dollar had indicated that a subpoena would be necessary.
In a television appearance several months ago, Dollar disputed some of the information used by Grassley in justifying the investigation.
"Of course, we don't have any problems complying to a valid request," Dollar said, but questioned whether the Senate panel should become a tax examiner.
Grassley triggered the standoff last November when he wrote to the six media ministries, asking them questions covering issues such as ministers' compensation, housing allowances, jets, cars, credit card statements and love offerings. He made no specific allegations of wrongdoing but said he was looking into such matters after news coverage of ministries' certain practices.
Grassley's letters were sent during a controversy that engulfed Oral Roberts University. Three of the six -- Copeland, Hinn and Dollar -- were ORU regents at the time.
A second letter was sent last month, and it was signed by Grassley and Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx...
Florian

Oklahoma City, OK

#13 Apr 7, 2008
Can't you at least try to post on some other subject once in a while? Maybe something about Oklahoma City?

We all get the point that you don’t approve of Prosperity Gospel based ministries. It may surprise you to know I don’t approve of them either. All the same, I don’t let the fact of their existence rule my life.

Your obsession is bringing into question your mental stability. You're not going to convince many people of your point if they think you are lunatic.
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#14 Apr 8, 2008
I have posted on several issues relating to this subject. I get severl e-mails a day asking me to post any up dates or news . This issue goes much more into effecting other areas. The shool system,police,the courts. Not to mention how it effects other churchs that follow the rules for non profits. trying to help make things better not just line their pockits.
If the money donated by the folks of OKC.went to where it was intended. There would be fewer problems. Fewer homeless ect, not saying its the answer but a start. the share number of people these so called orgs have hurt greatly out ways any thing they claim to have gained.
Not approve of Prosperity Gospel based ministries is but small part of the issue. Teaching kids to be ready to function in the real world and have the skills to work with in it. not to just be ably to pass a test and be happy about it. Justice within our court system where the truth is search for and alll the true facts come out. Do a little research your self about Bill Gothard and certain relation ships he has with ones in postion to promote his character first program, character city ect.
I hope this answers your question as to my mental stability. There are those that I would worry more about their mental stability.
forgiving husband

Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

#15 Apr 8, 2008
several sorry e - mails sorry for typo for typo
Florian

Oklahoma City, OK

#16 Apr 8, 2008
I'm wondering, why does your location show up as different places? There is Wilkesboro, NC. Then there is Leesburg, FL. There is also Whittier, CA.'forgiving husband' has posted from all of these locations. Is there more then one of you or are you well traveled? From the style of your writings, it appears that there may be several of you pretending to be one, which would be dishonest and unethical.

I still question the stability of someone that obsessively posts on one subject only, over and over, at such great length. Can't you at least try to post on some other subject? Maybe something to do with OKC? I do. I post on many different subjects. Not you. Every time I come here, there you are, front and center, with the same worn out old lament.

If your intent is to gain attention by saturating and dominating discussion boards, then you are being dishonest and disrespectful to your audience. You still don't seem to understand that with your relentless rudeness you risk alienating many of the people you purport to sway. Like me. I basically agree with you. I disagree with your ‘Swift Boat’ methods, your inappropriate use of this discussion board, and your belaboring your point.

You’ll have a lot less typos if you run your posts through a word processor before posting them. You still need to audit freshman comp, but a word processor could help you a lot.
forgiving husband

Roy, WA

#17 Apr 8, 2008
Only one of me. I don.t no why I show up posting from different locations.. can't disagree about my typing. My word processor doen't adapt to this posting don,t no why. I mean no disrespect toward any who have been involved in looking for a way to help them seleves sovle problems or go to any church to worship to whom or any any mannor just those who take advantage of them .Hiding behind being a church and non profit org. That to me being dishonest and disrespectful to those who give or donate to what they believe being an church. Telling them one thing and doing another.
I recive over 100 e-mails a week from the Okc area asking for up dates . My posting stay up for long periods of time because no one eles posts so I don't appear to hog the forum. I only post up dates or replys to any one. I do not mean to put you or any other one who replys down. Please do not take it that way . But I do tend to come stright to the point . When what they say and do. don,t match something very very wrong.
OldCrow

United States

#18 May 23, 2008
If your not a registered user & are not logged in, when you post on Topix, it will show a different place nearly every time you post.

I'm not logged in at this time, so it will not show my home town, perhaps not even my home state of Arkansas.
Florian

United States

#19 May 24, 2008
Learn something new every day. Thank you for the info.
forgiving husband

United States

#20 May 31, 2008
Ketchum: Televangelists resent look into their coffers

This title says a lot. Televangelists resent look into their coffers AKA their Financial resources; funds. That money is not theirs but that of the church and the donators they have the right to no where and how their money being spent
1. A strongbox.
2. often coffers
a. Financial resources; funds.
Sen. Charles Grassley must have hit a nerve.
Grassley, R-Iowa, wants some answers from six big-time televangelists to make sure nobody is playing fast and loose with the nation's tax laws.
The televangelists are Joyce Meyer of Missouri, Benny Hinn of Texas, Bishop Eddie Long of Georgia, Paul White of Florida, Kenneth Copeland of Texas and Creflo Dollar of Georgia. Grassley is concerned about the way they handle money and their tax-exempt status.
All but Copeland and Dollar have cooperated with the inquiry. According to the Washington Post, Copeland has said the investigation is "aimed at publicly questioning the religious beliefs of the targeted churches, their ministers and their members while ignoring televangelists of other denominations."
Grassley, a Baptist, is the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. He launched an investigation last winter into whether seemingly lavish spending by the televangelists might indicate misuse of contributions.
According to the Post, the committee is looking into the practices of the televangelists -- all Pentecostals -- who preach something called the "prosperity gospel."
It's not a gospel you'll find after Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. It isn't tucked in near Revelation. You won't find it anywhere in the Bible. The basic idea is that God will grant financial and spiritual wealth to the faithful. What a deal. Just really, really, really believe and take the rewards to the bank.
After all, doesn't God help those who help themselves? No, wait. That's not in the Bible. Benjamin Franklin said that, and while he accomplished a lot, I don't think Franklin contributed anything to the Scriptures.
So far, the prosperity gospel seems to work well for the televangelists who are cashing in on all the stuff they sell and the Social Security checks little old ladies are donating to their churches. I'm not sure how prosperous the donors are getting.
I've had the privilege to know a good number of believers, none of whom would be considered wealthy. Maybe I hang out with the wrong crowd. It's just that I keep remembering what Jesus told that rich guy: "Sell everything you have and give the proceeds to the poor. Then follow me." The rich guy declined.
The prosperity preachers apparently don't include that story in their sermons. They have taken some umbrage at Grassley and the committee asking so many pesky questions. They are calling it an example of Grassley's religious bias and an example of government persecution. Grassley says doctrine has nothing to do with it, that he wants to make sure everyone is playing by the IRS rules governing tax-exempt ministries.
Let's understand. Government has no business trying to tell any religious group what sort of doctrine it should preach, however loony it might be. That is part of what the separation of church and state is all about. And I'm no fan of senators poking around in areas where they have no business going. In this case, the power to tax is the power to destroy.
Where the rub comes is when anyone under the guise of religion illegally tries to pick the pockets of the faithful. The rest of us taxpayers get stuck with the bill.

http://www.thetimesherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...

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