New atheism gives voice to some, alie...

New atheism gives voice to some, alienates others

There are 22 comments on the The Gazette story from Jan 15, 2010, titled New atheism gives voice to some, alienates others. In it, The Gazette reports that:

Posted on Jan 15, 2010 by Molly Rossiter . Lydia Hartunian When Lydia Hartunian first became involved in the atheist community a few years ago, she was taken aback by the aggression she faced from other atheists.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Gazette.

First Prev
of 2
Next Last

Since: Dec 09

Gardendale, AL

#1 Jan 16, 2010
I'm kind of in the same boat as Molly as I find myself stunned at the dogmatism of some of my supposedly antidogma atheist brothers and sisters, I jokingly commented to a chum a few years ago that I was considering resigning my membership in the club in favor of a new movement I had tenatively titled "Be Cool". Since this revelation I have taken to referring to myself as a Freethinker and shall continue to use this moniker until the more vocal of my atheist brothers and sisters cease embarrasing me with their narrowmindedness and dogmatism.

As long as they are not on my porch most christians are harmless folk, good natured with vapid smiles. In ways remind me of people with Down's Syndrome, sweet folk who wouldn't harm a fly that you absolutely do not want to lend your car to. Kicking them for sport simply gives their vocal minority of lunatic fringers fodder for their "Atheist's sure are mean" rhetoric and perpetuates silly stereotypes that are too numerous to list; you all know them anyway.

There is a psychotic minority of Christians that are dangerous but if you look throughout history, eventually they police this themselves. I am also comforted in the knowledge that "No religion" is the world's fastest growing religion which indicates that superstition is dying out quite nicely on it's own without all that much help from me. If you want a real threat to consider, take a good hard look at Islam.

My advice: Be Cool; this problem will take care of itself.
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#2 Jan 16, 2010
The way I see it;

I do not want, or require someone to be my voice. I prefer the idea that I cam allowed and capable to speak for myself.

I kinda figured most atheists held this as a valuable trait to have - the ability and means to speak for them selves.

This whole idea of a 'voice' for atheists, imho, is a strawman, as if discrediting one, will collapse atheism like some house of cards - and imho, is a load of crap.

Its very clear to me - all atheists posting here, agree on one thing and one thing alone - disbelief in god(s).

If one thinks 'disbelief' is dogmatic, well - it is - it is the ONE thing an atheist MUST have to be an atheist - but its not a doctrine - its a definition.

I can be an atheists and still have an opinion on all kinds of matters that have NOTHING to do with my disbelief in god(s). And I would not call it 'dogma'- as there is NO atheism doctrine beyond 'disbelief'.

Since: Dec 09

Gardendale, AL

#3 Jan 16, 2010
NotBuyingIt wrote:
If one thinks 'disbelief' is dogmatic, well - it is - it is the ONE thing an atheist MUST have to be an atheist - but its not a doctrine - its a definition.
JIC I inadvertently led you down the garden path bro

dogmatism - bigotry: the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot

I was using the term in this respect not in the context of a belief system.
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#4 Jan 16, 2010
JimX wrote:
<quoted text>
JIC I inadvertently led you down the garden path bro
dogmatism - bigotry: the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot
I was using the term in this respect not in the context of a belief system.
No, mostly, I reacted to the thread title, that infers we have a 'voice'... your dogma references just inspired me to clear up what dogma any atheist *could* have being an atheist.

You see - I can have several opinions on a wide range of subjects - for instance some may be in agreement with a republican - but that does not make me a republican.

Dogma infers adherence to a doctrine - as in complete... with what I see - there are few who adhere to ALL of a doctrine, but rather stick to cherry picked parts of their doctrine.

Atheists - are the few who adhere to that 'dogma' completely required of atheism - disbelief. The 'doctrine' of atheism is so short and simple - to NOT follow that doctrine - equates to NOT being an atheist.

To pick and choose apsects of Christianity does not equate to not christian, or to be anti-choice democrat does not always equate to not democrat - an atheist who believes in god is on the other hand an oxymoron.

Any other ideas of dogma - have nothing to do with atheism, but positions on any number of ideas that may be associated with *other* groups.

Could there be an atheist who strongly feels creation should be taught in science?- perhaps - is 'anti-creationism' a 'doctrine' of atheism - I am saying - of course not - but I bet creationists think it is - as a for instance.

You see many inferences that ALL atheists are all obama supporters - for what ever reasons - its just a false correlation.
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#5 Jan 16, 2010
JimX wrote:
<quoted text>
JIC I inadvertently led you down the garden path bro
dogmatism - bigotry: the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot
I was using the term in this respect not in the context of a belief system.
Also... no disrespect... but why use 'dogma' to replace bigotry - they are two completely different ideas.

I mean - are atheists intolerant? YES intolerant to obvious lies, errors in statements claimed as 'factual'- but vocal objection is hardly 'bigotry'.

Calling some one who claims something that is factually wrong -(even after presenting evidence that contradicts them and they off NO reasonable rebuttal) an 'idiot' is not 'bigotry'- its an observation.
Marc

Phoenixville, PA

#7 Jan 17, 2010
JimX wrote:
I'm kind of in the same boat as Molly as I find myself stunned at the dogmatism of some of my supposedly antidogma atheist brothers and sisters, I jokingly commented to a chum a few years ago that I was considering resigning my membership in the club in favor of a new movement I had tenatively titled "Be Cool". Since this revelation I have taken to referring to myself as a Freethinker and shall continue to use this moniker until the more vocal of my atheist brothers and sisters cease embarrasing me with their narrowmindedness and dogmatism.
Why do you think Thomas Huxley coined the term agnostic? I think it was to avoid offending his religious contemporaries. It was a reflection of the power of religion in his culture that he needed to pander to religious sensitivities. It's a shame that a century and a half later the pandering continues...
JimX wrote:
As long as they are not on my porch most christians are harmless folk, good natured with vapid smiles. In ways remind me of people with Down's Syndrome, sweet folk who wouldn't harm a fly that you absolutely do not want to lend your car to. Kicking them for sport simply gives their vocal minority of lunatic fringers fodder for their "Atheist's sure are mean" rhetoric and perpetuates silly stereotypes that are too numerous to list; you all know them anyway.
Your generalizations about "christians" seem like the definition of "narrowmindedness." I love to talk about religion and have studied Christianity at length. I'm fascinated by individual religious experience and perspective. I've met some very knowledgeable Christians.
JimX wrote:
There is a psychotic minority of Christians that are dangerous but if you look throughout history, eventually they police this themselves.
The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades and the Hundred Years War seem like good examples of Christians getting out of hand.
JimX wrote:
I am also comforted in the knowledge that "No religion" is the world's fastest growing religion which indicates that superstition is dying out quite nicely on it's own without all that much help from me. If you want a real threat to consider, take a good hard look at Islam.
Don't you think the louder atheist voices are a symptom of its increasing popularity?

Do you think our reverence for our cultural superstitions undermines our ability to confront Islam? If we must respect one bunch of guys with funny hats don't we have to respect them all? Have you studied Islam? It is a more advanced religion than Christianity...
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#8 Jan 17, 2010
Marc wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you think Thomas Huxley coined the term agnostic? I think it was to avoid offending his religious contemporaries. It was a reflection of the power of religion in his culture that he needed to pander to religious sensitivities. It's a shame that a century and a half later the pandering continues...
Sure.. if he is the one who coined it.. perhaps in the context of religion?? but its greek for 'without knowledge' and I am fairly certain it was coined by a greek in the same context long before Huxley. but...?? what ever.
Marc wrote:
Your generalizations about "christians" seem like the definition of "narrowmindedness." I love to talk about religion and have studied Christianity at length. I'm fascinated by individual religious experience and perspective. I've met some very knowledgeable Christians.
Here on topix - I confess it is easy to make generalizations about christians that tend to troll the atheism forums/threads - not for the purpose of stimulating conversation, but to stirr things up - some have confessed as much... and often we see the ol revenge fantasy displayed 'yur gonna burn in hell I tell ya'

So, keep that in mind - I use much harsher generalizations toward chirstians who come here compared the many friends I have and have no problems with.

In other words - those knowledgeable christians don't post much here - the fanatic fringe is what I found here most.
Marc wrote:
The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades and the Hundred Years War seem like good examples of Christians getting out of hand.
Yes and I would say, it was the leaders who were most culpable - considering it was frowned upon to second guess them. But does that excuse anyone from not standing up against them ?? its something I ponder, sincerely.
Marc wrote:
Don't you think the louder atheist voices are a symptom of its increasing popularity?
Actually just the opposite... Recently there has been increases in activity by the churches... pushing creationism into schools amid decisions in court stateing there is not real science to teach with creationism - and admitted that to include creationism in public school classes - they would also allow palm reading, tarrot, astrology etc etc - this is dangerous, and imho, has brought out the clost atheists...

we have so very little to gain otherwise by making the admission in this predominant christian nation who have already been demonizing atheists for years.
Marc wrote:
Do you think our reverence for our cultural superstitions undermines our ability to confront Islam?
Actually my stance on christian icons on public land is MOSTLY this...

In Michigan - they used the precedence of church bells to justify allowing islam calls to prayer - now, I have NO problems with church bells - I am used to them and think they sound very nice.

BUT - I heard the call to prayer and find it quite objectionable - SO - I am fighting to keep ALL religions symbols and icons etc from public property.
Marc wrote:
If we must respect one bunch of guys with funny hats don't we have to respect them all? Have you studied Islam? It is a more advanced religion than Christianity...
Yes that's another problem with allowing religious icons on public property - allow one - allow them all - ALL 30,000+ of christian ones alone - add who knows how many... talk about a mess to maintain... no thanks - its bets and cheapest to allow NONE.

Go ahead put what ever you like and your neighborhood association will allow on your own property... teach actual science in public science class - and you would likely never know I was an atheist.
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#9 Jan 17, 2010
Marc wrote:
Do you think our reverence for our cultural superstitions undermines our ability to confront Islam? If we must respect one bunch of guys with funny hats don't we have to respect them all? Have you studied Islam? It is a more advanced religion than Christianity...
I guess I went off on a bit of a tangent on this before..

But yes - fanaticism will beget equal but opposite fanaticism.

You see it all the time in so many areas. Chevy v Ford fist fights.
Band Z v Band X fist fights... I mean people fight over the simplest of things - the common thread is high emotions - a common trait with just about any religion.

This reverence you speak of I would say, in too many cases is a an understatement.

Read some posts here - you'll see what I mean. WOW.
Marc

Phoenixville, PA

#10 Jan 18, 2010
NotBuyingIt wrote:
Sure.. if he is the one who coined it.. perhaps in the context of religion?? but its greek for 'without knowledge' and I am fairly certain it was coined by a greek in the same context long before Huxley. but...?? what ever.
There was an Ancient Greek sect called the Gnostics. I think Huxley was the first to use the term in its current context.
NotBuyingIt wrote:
Here on topix - I confess it is easy to make generalizations about christians that tend to troll the atheism forums/threads - not for the purpose of stimulating conversation, but to stirr things up - some have confessed as much... and often we see the ol revenge fantasy displayed 'yur gonna burn in hell I tell ya'
So, keep that in mind - I use much harsher generalizations toward chirstians who come here compared the many friends I have and have no problems with.
In other words - those knowledgeable christians don't post much here - the fanatic fringe is what I found here most.
Most religious people don't want to have an honest conversation about their faith with an atheist. Religious ideas don't fare well under scrutiny. I think of the fire and brimstone stuff as the equivalent of a three year old throwing a temper tantrum when told they can't have cake and a coke for dinner.
NotBuyingIt wrote:
Yes and I would say, it was the leaders who were most culpable - considering it was frowned upon to second guess them. But does that excuse anyone from not standing up against them ?? its something I ponder, sincerely.
But those leaders were a product of and constrained by their religions. Their power was by divine right. Religion in power is a lot scarier than religion on paper...
NotBuyingIt wrote:
Actually just the opposite... Recently there has been increases in activity by the churches... pushing creationism into schools amid decisions in court stateing there is not real science to teach with creationism - and admitted that to include creationism in public school classes - they would also allow palm reading, tarrot, astrology etc etc - this is dangerous, and imho, has brought out the clost atheists...
we have so very little to gain otherwise by making the admission in this predominant christian nation who have already been demonizing atheists for years.
The ID agenda is so asinine that it unites a wide array of people including atheists. I still think that there is a growing sense of empowerment in the atheist community. Atheists should be proud of their beliefs and outspoken about them. Our position is the most defensible.
NotBuyingIt wrote:
Actually my stance on christian icons on public land is MOSTLY this...
In Michigan - they used the precedence of church bells to justify allowing islam calls to prayer - now, I have NO problems with church bells - I am used to them and think they sound very nice.
BUT - I heard the call to prayer and find it quite objectionable - SO - I am fighting to keep ALL religions symbols and icons etc from public property.
It seems like a sound ordinance would do the trick.
NotBuyingIt wrote:
Yes that's another problem with allowing religious icons on public property - allow one - allow them all - ALL 30,000+ of christian ones alone - add who knows how many... talk about a mess to maintain... no thanks - its bets and cheapest to allow NONE.
Go ahead put what ever you like and your neighborhood association will allow on your own property... teach actual science in public science class - and you would likely never know I was an atheist.
Isn't that the gist of the atheist agenda? I don't care what magic nonsense people want to believe in so long as they neither force that belief on me nor demand that I respect it. That is not a bargain religions are willing to make.
Marc

Phoenixville, PA

#11 Jan 18, 2010
NotBuyingIt wrote:
I guess I went off on a bit of a tangent on this before..
But yes - fanaticism will beget equal but opposite fanaticism.
You see it all the time in so many areas. Chevy v Ford fist fights.
Band Z v Band X fist fights... I mean people fight over the simplest of things - the common thread is high emotions - a common trait with just about any religion.
This reverence you speak of I would say, in too many cases is a an understatement.
Read some posts here - you'll see what I mean. WOW.
And I think that rational people have an obligation to speak out against religious nonsense. Our cultural reverence for Christianity empowers Islam and this alliance has and will cost many people their lives.
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#12 Jan 18, 2010
Marc wrote:
It seems like a sound ordinance would do the trick.
I'd presume they had em already, most cities do, I also presume, the church bells were an exception made - and thus, the Muslims are exploiting that exception for their calls to prayer.
To not allow that exception would be religious discrimination.
Either way - its a problem for non Muslims living within ear shot of them - and well - I'm no lawyer.
Marc wrote:
Isn't that the gist of the atheist agenda? I don't care what magic nonsense people want to believe in so long as they neither force that belief on me nor demand that I respect it. That is not a bargain religions are willing to make.
Exactly - and when you hear it from the fanatic fringe - we are destroying Christianity - and this 'christian nation'
..pft.
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#13 Jan 18, 2010
Marc wrote:
<quoted text>
And I think that rational people have an obligation to speak out against religious nonsense. Our cultural reverence for Christianity empowers Islam and this alliance has and will cost many people their lives.
yeah, I've said basically the same thing - most christians do not really want to hear it - they have their minds made up for them already and are not encouraged to think critically.
humor

Seattle, WA

#14 Jan 18, 2010
NotBuyingIt wrote:
<quoted text>yeah, I've said basically the same thing - most christians do not really want to hear it - they have their minds made up for them already and are not encouraged to think critically.
most atheists do not really want to hear it - they have their minds made up for them already and are not encouraged to think critically.
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#15 Jan 18, 2010
humor wrote:
<quoted text>
most atheists do not really want to hear it - they have their minds made up for them already and are not encouraged to think critically.
You know imitation is the highest form of flattery right...

I was raised a christian - then I grew up. It started with realizing santa clause was a fraud and went from there.

Let us know when you grow up - never mind - we'll tell by what you post. Ok Mr 'scientist'

ROFLMAO
Marc

Phoenixville, PA

#16 Jan 18, 2010
NotBuyingIt wrote:
I'd presume they had em already, most cities do, I also presume, the church bells were an exception made - and thus, the Muslims are exploiting that exception for their calls to prayer.
To not allow that exception would be religious discrimination.
Either way - its a problem for non Muslims living within ear shot of them - and well - I'm no lawyer.
I don't get either. I guess I just got lucky.
NotBuyingIt wrote:
Exactly - and when you hear it from the fanatic fringe - we are destroying Christianity - and this 'christian nation'
..pft.
I'm sure it's tough to accept a level playing field when once you could kill people for mere blasphemy.
Marc

Phoenixville, PA

#17 Jan 18, 2010
NotBuyingIt wrote:
yeah, I've said basically the same thing - most christians do not really want to hear it - they have their minds made up for them already and are not encouraged to think critically.
Critical thinking is not helpful for faith based beliefs. It's completely ridiculous when combined with prosthelytizing.
Marc

Phoenixville, PA

#18 Jan 18, 2010
humor wrote:
most atheists do not really want to hear it - they have their minds made up for them already and are not encouraged to think critically.
I was raised atheist. My parents encouraged me to learn about religions and I have found religious belief fascinating. Have you read religious works?
nina

Ottawa, Canada

#19 Jan 18, 2010
JimX wrote:
...There is a psychotic minority of Christians that are dangerous but if you look throughout history, eventually they police this themselves....
when does this "self policing" start?

because I don't see a lot of difference between the crusades and now

or witch burnings and the insistence on just say no to sex campaigns that lead to more pregnancies and disease transmission

and certainly the historic oppression of xtians and their continued opposition to the various civil rights movements of the last century and continuing against gays and lesbians now
NotBuyingIt

Mesa, AZ

#20 Jan 18, 2010
Marc wrote:
I'm sure it's tough to accept a level playing field when once you could kill people for mere blasphemy.
lol

Yeah those were the days huh?

When you could call ANY sort of criticism 'blasphemy'.

Oh the fond memories.. of the *dark* ages...

lol
nina

Ottawa, Canada

#21 Jan 19, 2010
well, if this gal doesn't like new atheism

why not start new new athiesm?

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 2
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

North Liberty Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Free Moshi Monster Accounts (Jun '12) 18 hr iamdamooshimonstaa 106
News In Iowa, more constituents flood a GOP town hal... Mar 21 Larry Craig s WC ... 13
muhommed the pig licker Mar 17 UeatPigs 1
News Marvin Sims Sr., 66 (Apr '10) Mar 6 Robyn Canady 2
News Veterans with Mild TBI Have Brain Abnormalities (Feb '13) Mar 5 Humanspirit 3
Nicholas Darnell Cannon died September 29 Mar 3 None 6
Nicholas Darnell Cannon died September 29th Mar 1 MyThreeSons7 3

North Liberty Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

North Liberty Mortgages