Same-sex marriage goes down to legisl...

Same-sex marriage goes down to legislative wire in New York

There are 58 comments on the Reuters story from Jun 19, 2011, titled Same-sex marriage goes down to legislative wire in New York. In it, Reuters reports that:

Supporters and opponents of gay marriage made 11th-hour appeals on Sunday as state lawmakers weighed a vote on making New York the sixth state -- and the most populous -- to legalize same-sex marriage.

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“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#42 Jun 21, 2011
hi hi wrote:
Know what I've also seen, though?
MANY, MANY people and "pundits" saying that if marriage equality is inevitable anywhere, it's inevitable in New York and is a matter of time -- sooner rather than later.
Which I agree with.
If this doesn't happen this year, it's GONNA HAPPEN next year or the year after. This is in sight.
When 70% of Americans under age 35 support marriage equality, it's inevitable EVERYWHERE eventually. The only question is will it take 2 years or 5 years or 10 years or 20 years to get there. Compared to other civil rights battles (blacks, women, etc), the gay rights movement has actually moved along very fast- though I admit to feeling frustrated at the seemingly slow pace of change at times.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will see nationwide marriage equality in the next 20 years, but likely much sooner.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#43 Jun 22, 2011
WeTheSheeple wrote:
The latest I've read is agreement has been reached on property taxes & rent control paving the way for the marriage bill to come up tomorrow. Only the Senate leader knows for sure what will happen tomorrow, and he's not talking to the press.
The biggest hangup is over individuals being able to discriminate based on their religious beliefs- i.e. a caterer refusing service to a gay wedding. The problem is that would violate the anti-discrimination law passed in 2003 which specifically prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation.
We'll find out tomorrow.......or the next day.....or the next.....
Indeed, that appears to be the major problem. Sensible, commonsensical laws prohibit that kind of discrimination; and we ALL KNOW it's wrong. We all know there is no reason, no matter how much you "hate" gays, to refuse to SELL A GODDAMN CAKE to a group of people if you're running a bakery. But this hatred is so hysterical and such a "cultural flash point" now that they want the right to *make a public, theatrical show* of having nnnnothing to do with gay people. If it were under my control, the "caving" on this specific issue would be nonexistent, and I would calmly tell the senate that I would be contacting allies and activists to end their careers come the 2012 elections. I would shrug and walk out the damn door.

I have utterly had it with people who pretend this is "nothing like" racial discrimination; it makes me want to projectile-vomit in their faces. The older generations cry about it like pussies. Meanwhile, the younger generations are becoming MORE AND MORE racist, and I'm surprised no one is seeing the trend. It really, really shocks me.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#44 Jun 22, 2011
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
When 70% of Americans under age 35 support marriage equality, it's inevitable EVERYWHERE eventually. The only question is will it take 2 years or 5 years or 10 years or 20 years to get there. Compared to other civil rights battles (blacks, women, etc), the gay rights movement has actually moved along very fast- though I admit to feeling frustrated at the seemingly slow pace of change at times.
I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will see nationwide marriage equality in the next 20 years, but likely much sooner.
I withhold all judgment on that; you guys seem soooooo confident but the pro-gay aren't really fighting these people like they have been in New York. My statement was specifically for New York. I believe THAT state will have it within two years. But when you tell me Maryland or Rhode Island is gonna have it soon, I stolidly point back to the fiascoes that happened just this year or last. I would feel more comfortable if some of you would admit that they didn't fight *NEARLY* so savagely as they might have.

Because ya know what? None of us can deny that they FAILED, pure and simple. And the WHY is pretty obvious.

I also DON'T have confidence that the supreme court will OK this on its first national go-round.

As tone and intent may be missing here, I am not really arguing your points so much as expressing serious, serious, serious reservations, based on what I *see*, not what anyone hopes.

“WAY TO GO”

Since: Mar 11

IRELAND

#45 Jun 22, 2011
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
I withhold all judgment on that; you guys seem soooooo confident but the pro-gay aren't really fighting these people like they have been in New York. My statement was specifically for New York. I believe THAT state will have it within two years. But when you tell me Maryland or Rhode Island is gonna have it soon, I stolidly point back to the fiascoes that happened just this year or last. I would feel more comfortable if some of you would admit that they didn't fight *NEARLY* so savagely as they might have.
Because ya know what? None of us can deny that they FAILED, pure and simple. And the WHY is pretty obvious.
I also DON'T have confidence that the supreme court will OK this on its first national go-round.
As tone and intent may be missing here, I am not really arguing your points so much as expressing serious, serious, serious reservations, based on what I *see*, not what anyone hopes.
Those States DID fail.......just like the No on Prop 8 folks FAILED in 2008!!

However I do agree with Sheeple that eventually Marriage Equality will happen, but in my opinion it will hopefully happen sooner, than later!!!
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#46 Jun 22, 2011
RnL2008 wrote:
<quoted text>
Those States DID fail.......just like the No on Prop 8 folks FAILED in 2008!!
However I do agree with Sheeple that eventually Marriage Equality will happen, but in my opinion it will hopefully happen sooner, than later!!!
You weren't born yesterday, and I needn't tell you that hope *will do absolutely and literally nothing* for the cause.

It is action that will do anything for the cause.

It is that simple.

With all due respect, I no longer pay attention to hopes and dreams on these issues. I base EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING I say on the track record, on politics, and on logic. Right now, New York's passage of marriage equality is EXTREMELY questionable. However, New York is also the only state where a gigantic, colossal push was made; and it stands as the only state where LOGIC -- not hope -- dictates that this will happen within the next year or two.

“WAY TO GO”

Since: Mar 11

IRELAND

#47 Jun 22, 2011
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
You weren't born yesterday, and I needn't tell you that hope *will do absolutely and literally nothing* for the cause.
It is action that will do anything for the cause.
It is that simple.
With all due respect, I no longer pay attention to hopes and dreams on these issues. I base EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING I say on the track record, on politics, and on logic. Right now, New York's passage of marriage equality is EXTREMELY questionable. However, New York is also the only state where a gigantic, colossal push was made; and it stands as the only state where LOGIC -- not hope -- dictates that this will happen within the next year or two.
I know that hope won't help get things done per say........but there is nothing wrong with being hopeful in my opinion!!!

It might even happen this week, but that still remains to be seen.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#48 Jun 22, 2011
RnL2008 wrote:
<quoted text>
I know that hope won't help get things done per say........but there is nothing wrong with being hopeful in my opinion!!!
It might even happen this week, but that still remains to be seen.
I smiled; you are right. There's nothing wrong with being hopeful. And it does remain to be seen. But many pundits are saying the "religious exemptions" arguments are a babyish, whining smoke screen of the anti-gay, their bid to use ANYTHING to turn this down and refuse to pass it, and I agree.

I have lost much of my respect for the gay rights movement, but I will lose *even more* if this vote loses and they DON'T determine that they are going to do *everything* they have to, including ending careers, to get this passed in 2012. I don't know when anyone pro-gay is going to get that the time for "pleading and crying" is over, but it was over long ago, period.

If this vote is lost, they will be completely worthless not to begin *the very next day* to plot on how they are going to change the makeup of the senate -- by ANY means they can find -- to push this legislation through.

Period.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#49 Jun 22, 2011
They don't care about you and your families. You have cited the lives of your children.

They. don't. care. about. your. children.

That leaves only one option.

You must fight and battle and force and cram these legal protections through by any. legal. means. you. can. find.

It's pretty simple logic. If NOTHING will sway them, then nothing remains to be done but to fight like crazy,*by every means you can find*, until you have protected your children. A self-respecting parent would do nothing but. Period.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#50 Jun 22, 2011
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
I withhold all judgment on that; you guys seem soooooo confident but the pro-gay aren't really fighting these people like they have been in New York. My statement was specifically for New York. I believe THAT state will have it within two years. But when you tell me Maryland or Rhode Island is gonna have it soon, I stolidly point back to the fiascoes that happened just this year or last. I would feel more comfortable if some of you would admit that they didn't fight *NEARLY* so savagely as they might have.
Because ya know what? None of us can deny that they FAILED, pure and simple. And the WHY is pretty obvious.
I also DON'T have confidence that the supreme court will OK this on its first national go-round.
As tone and intent may be missing here, I am not really arguing your points so much as expressing serious, serious, serious reservations, based on what I *see*, not what anyone hopes.
Obviously we failed in Rhode Island and Maryland and California and Maine and........

My point is the simple demographics mean this issue WILL be settled eventually. Maybe it will take 20 years, but it will happen. The older generation that opposes marriage equality is dying off at a rate of 6,000 per day. Considering over half the "no" votes on referendum like Prop 8 were over age 65, it's just a matter of time before enough of them die and are replaced by the next generation which is more in favor of equality.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#51 Jun 22, 2011
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously we failed in Rhode Island and Maryland and California and Maine and........
My point is the simple demographics mean this issue WILL be settled eventually. Maybe it will take 20 years, but it will happen. The older generation that opposes marriage equality is dying off at a rate of 6,000 per day. Considering over half the "no" votes on referendum like Prop 8 were over age 65, it's just a matter of time before enough of them die and are replaced by the next generation which is more in favor of equality.
I laughed at (and appreciate) your ice-cold and pragmatic analysis. I agree. I wrote a much longer response to this but I'll skip it. I think what I think. I accept what you say here but continue to disagree about some tactics, and I now know -- I know all too well -- that some of (the lot of) us, the pro-gay as a general group, will NEVER, NEVER agree.

Only the fear of the pro-gay offends me to my bones. Nothing else. Only that.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#52 Jun 22, 2011
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
I laughed at (and appreciate) your ice-cold and pragmatic analysis. I agree. I wrote a much longer response to this but I'll skip it. I think what I think. I accept what you say here but continue to disagree about some tactics, and I now know -- I know all too well -- that some of (the lot of) us, the pro-gay as a general group, will NEVER, NEVER agree.
Only the fear of the pro-gay offends me to my bones. Nothing else. Only that.
I often get accused of wishing for my opponents death when I mention the demographics in such a manner. Unfortunately I think it will take most of the current 65+ generation dying before we'll see a victory at the polls on marriage equality. No matter the polling data, the simple fact is 95% of old people vote in every election, every time. Conversely, the age group which overwhelmingly states support for gay rights is the least likely to vote.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#53 Jun 23, 2011
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I often get accused of wishing for my opponents death when I mention the demographics in such a manner. Unfortunately I think it will take most of the current 65+ generation dying before we'll see a victory at the polls on marriage equality. No matter the polling data, the simple fact is 95% of old people vote in every election, every time. Conversely, the age group which overwhelmingly states support for gay rights is the least likely to vote.
I wouldn't fault you if you did wish for their deaths. The anti-gay have turned this culture was so horrifically nasty that I wouldn't fault you for a millisecond. I just can't wrap my head around the near-WORLDWIDE condemnation of this one group that throws everyone into such a fucking tizzy and causes such incredible, endless panic, hatred and efforts to curtail their *every last goddamn right* to the point that it sometimes -- to me -- seems WORSE than what blacks endured. I get flak for that, and I won't stop saying it. It's too unreal for me to presume anyone has the right to dare to silence me.

What are people thinking? It's completely beyond me.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#54 Jun 23, 2011
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
I wouldn't fault you if you did wish for their deaths. The anti-gay have turned this culture was so horrifically nasty that I wouldn't fault you for a millisecond. I just can't wrap my head around the near-WORLDWIDE condemnation of this one group that throws everyone into such a fucking tizzy and causes such incredible, endless panic, hatred and efforts to curtail their *every last goddamn right* to the point that it sometimes -- to me -- seems WORSE than what blacks endured. I get flak for that, and I won't stop saying it. It's too unreal for me to presume anyone has the right to dare to silence me.
What are people thinking? It's completely beyond me.
It may not be worse than what blacks endured, but it's certainly close. Gays were pretty much left alone so long as we were all closeted, didn't expect any rights, and were basically unseen by the majority of society. Oh sure, everybody knew we existed, but out of sight out of mind.

Now that we're open & visible & (gasp!) demanding equal rights we become an easy target for those who need someone/something to blame for all the evils in the world.

What I wonder is who will be the next target of the scared bigoted religious conservatives? Who will they claim will destroy American society once the gays get equality?
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#55 Jun 23, 2011
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
It may not be worse than what blacks endured, but it's certainly close. Gays were pretty much left alone so long as we were all closeted, didn't expect any rights, and were basically unseen by the majority of society. Oh sure, everybody knew we existed, but out of sight out of mind.
Now that we're open & visible & (gasp!) demanding equal rights we become an easy target for those who need someone/something to blame for all the evils in the world.
What I wonder is who will be the next target of the scared bigoted religious conservatives? Who will they claim will destroy American society once the gays get equality?
There was an article about this on topix, wasn't there? The "religious" conservatives assimilate each subgroup they have hatefully fought, subsuming them into the "fabric" of their group and then targeting a new one. I, too, wonder who will be next. But that doesn't erase what I saw. I will never forget what I saw during this era. The way I see this country and the way I see "religion" has been utterly changed, and forever. I will never, never forget. Never.

Since: Dec 08

United States

#56 Jun 23, 2011
Almost all churches are hurting for participants. They can't quite figure out why yet they continue to propagate nonsensical and unnecessary hatred toward one group or another. They have done so for generation upon generation throughout their history. The worse when I was growing up were against the blacks although the Mexicans were pretty much in the same territory at least in the non-catholic area where I was raised. And of course there was always the gypsies who were and are probably the most misunderstood group in the world today.

hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
There was an article about this on topix, wasn't there? The "religious" conservatives assimilate each subgroup they have hatefully fought, subsuming them into the "fabric" of their group and then targeting a new one. I, too, wonder who will be next. But that doesn't erase what I saw. I will never forget what I saw during this era. The way I see this country and the way I see "religion" has been utterly changed, and forever. I will never, never forget. Never.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#57 Jun 23, 2011
hi hi wrote:
<quoted text>
There was an article about this on topix, wasn't there? The "religious" conservatives assimilate each subgroup they have hatefully fought, subsuming them into the "fabric" of their group and then targeting a new one. I, too, wonder who will be next. But that doesn't erase what I saw. I will never forget what I saw during this era. The way I see this country and the way I see "religion" has been utterly changed, and forever. I will never, never forget. Never.
I whole heartedly agree. I will NEVER be able to look religion (and the catholic church in particular) with anything but complete disgust and yes outright hatred for their numerous crimes against humanity.

This world will be a much better place when organized religion is finally on the trash heap of history. One day people will look back and wonder how so many billions of people could ever be so gullible.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#58 Jun 24, 2011
TomInElPaso wrote:
Almost all churches are hurting for participants. They can't quite figure out why yet they continue to propagate nonsensical and unnecessary hatred toward one group or another. They have done so for generation upon generation throughout their history. The worse when I was growing up were against the blacks although the Mexicans were pretty much in the same territory at least in the non-catholic area where I was raised. And of course there was always the gypsies who were and are probably the most misunderstood group in the world today.
<quoted text>
If you were to believe the bible as a basis for faith,

only a basis, mind you, as subsumed into, as part and parcel of, a faith in a higher being who has any control over goings-on upon this earth,

you would have reason to believe that that being is so disgusted by what *earthly humans* have made religion into that he has purposely and deliberately wrecked it *as the bible arguably predicts*, showing the "religious" for the mongers of evil that they are.

You could easily make a case that the "religious," as the bible states, are the *evil* ones who do nothing in the name of god or Jesus, but instead in the name of evil and satan.
hi hi

Philadelphia, PA

#59 Jun 24, 2011
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I whole heartedly agree. I will NEVER be able to look religion (and the catholic church in particular) with anything but complete disgust and yes outright hatred for their numerous crimes against humanity.
This world will be a much better place when organized religion is finally on the trash heap of history. One day people will look back and wonder how so many billions of people could ever be so gullible.
I now see it, in fact, as intrinsically *evil*.

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