High Speed Rail and Utica, NY

[James Turturo]

Congressman Richard Hanna needs to be fired immediately by
Oneida County Voters for standing in the way of high speed rail
jobs and transportation center. His 24 month fight against jobs and
transportation infra structure has cost thousand of dollars in payroll and made working for commuters to Syracuse, Albany and Rochester both more
difficult and expensive. In addition to killing jobs for Central New York
he is cause for delay in the transportation bill that held stimulus
funding for both jobs and highway safety. For Oneida County Residents
it is a morally aggregious act to support Richard Hanna for another
term in Washington. He is the problem not the solution. His direct actions have prolonged the recession for Utica Rome and working families while neglecting
public safety. The Reverend Jame Turturro, Minister from Utica NY

[DazedAndConfused]

Fired? You need to go back to school and take U.S. Government again because you don't know how the system works.

You want high speed rails to deliver drugs up to Utica a lot faster. Everyone knows that the dealers use the rail system for bringing their products up here.

The taxpayers pay for it and only a small percentage of NYS residents use it. Less than 10% of the population in NYS will use it in their lifetime. Do you want your taxes to go up even more? Wait, you probably don't pay for any taxes and are given my tax dollars every month. If you want to use it, then tell private businesses to fund the expensive project. Those that use the Thruway are always paying for it via tolls and through purchasing the high priced items sold at the thruway stops.

Don't go spending my TAX DOLLARS! Oneida County is filled with welfare and other people living off social services. If we keep it up, all businesses will leave because of the high property and sales tax. Businesses in Utica are picking up the tab for the school district because most of the city is filled with uneducated welfare druggies that send their bastard children (gangsters) to the schools to disrupt the other students. Get rid of welfare and more businesses will move in and will pick up the tab for the high speed rail.

[DazedAndConfused]

Let's spend billions so the employees of Amtrak can steal from us a little faster. The employees only stole $-$7 million dollars in food and the company loses $80 million dollars a year selling food. Stop serving food and have the people be responsible and bring their own snacks & meals. Wait, I said they have to be responsible. I'm sure the welfare cases bring fattening foods on my dime.

http://www.i4u.com/2012/08/amtrak/million-emp...

[Stu]

James Turturo wrote:

Congressman Richard Hanna needs to be fired immediately by
Oneida County Voters for standing in the way of high speed rail
jobs and transportation center. His 24 month fight against jobs and
transportation infra structure has cost thousand of dollars in payroll and made working for commuters to Syracuse, Albany and Rochester both more
difficult and expensive. In addition to killing jobs for Central New York
he is cause for delay in the transportation bill that held stimulus
funding for both jobs and highway safety. For Oneida County Residents
it is a morally aggregious act to support Richard Hanna for another
term in Washington. He is the problem not the solution. His direct actions have prolonged the recession for Utica Rome and working families while neglecting
public safety. The Reverend Jame Turturro, Minister from Utica NY

As someone who commutes long distances back and forth from Utica for work, I can tell you that this post is totally on point. Utica is hindered right now because it is NOT easy nor fast to reach (and don't say....we have our one paltry thruway exit/entrance...the thruway is not fast nor convenient and has been completely overrun for the past 2 decades with big box tractor trailers from all the distribution centers). You want jobs in Utica, we need high speed rail. If Hanna is working against it (he also doesn't seem to be doing anything with improving highway transporation and turning Rt 12 into an Interstate despite his presence on the highway committee....another improvement needed to bring Utica on par with Syracuse, Albany, etc.), he should be "fired" in the next election by being voted out. Every other competitive economy around the globe has high speed rail. If the same people who wonder why Utica looks so down and out are the same people fighting high speed rail, you need to get your logic in check! I agree with Rev Turturro.

[rocksandrolls]

Nobody could afford the ticket for high speed rail and the trains would run empty. Why does this part of the equation always get left out?

[Never Happen]

I had spoke to a man that works in that Department in Albany. He said it could never happen in NYS. The distance to get a train up to speed is to great, by the time it got to full speed from Buffalo to Albany it would have to slow down and wouldn't be able to make any stops between the two cities. The degree of the banking for a turn is so great, it would not even get to Albany. Also the space next to the tracks would take large portions of every major city in NY. Congressman Hanna is right in NOT wasting our tax dollars on a pipe dream.

[Orion Bus Employees]

Rep Hanna also voted against a transportation bill that would have included money for companies like Orion. By following the party line of voting, he screwed the people in his hometown that needed his vote. He originally agreed to support the bill, but after party leaders told him not to, he changed his vote. He's nothing more than a puppet.

He has done nothing for his term in office,,except for renaming a post office. He's a waste and needs to be shown the door.

[Stu]

rocksandrolls wrote:

Nobody could afford the ticket for high speed rail and the trains would run empty. Why does this part of the equation always get left out?

California is doing it......compare the prosperous landscape in California to Upstate NY, and you will see that if this doesn't happen, we have a huge mistake from which we will never recover. The Canal was never replaced nor was Upstate NY's heyday......this is sorely needed and long overdue.....implementing it would finally make New York one rather than two states between down and upstate. China gets it. India gets it. Don't complain when more jobs continue to go there. Transporation infrastructure is a basic investment and Republicans have made a real American mess out of this one. What a horrific shame.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021072...

[DazedAndConfused]

Stu wrote:

<quoted text>
California is doing it......compare the prosperous landscape in California to Upstate NY, and you will see that if this doesn't happen, we have a huge mistake from which we will never recover. The Canal was never replaced nor was Upstate NY's heyday......this is sorely needed and long overdue.....implementing it would finally make New York one rather than two states between down and upstate. China gets it. India gets it. Don't complain when more jobs continue to go there. Transporation infrastructure is a basic investment and Republicans have made a real American mess out of this one. What a horrific shame.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021072...

I'm sorry, but can you tell us about California's current economic status? Oh, that is right, they are almost bankrupt. NYS is heading in the same direction. Liberals just want to spend, spend, spend. Live within your means. Stop spending my tax dollars on wasteful spending. If they were to try to build this, it will cost at least 50% more than what they say it will because unions will get involved. We don't need more union jobs because they are destroying NYS. RIGHT TO WORK!

[Da Law]

Stu wrote:

<quoted text>Every other competitive economy around the globe has high speed rail.

And not a single country with passenger HSR has been able to make it work in under-populated areas without billions in subsidies. There are exactly *two* profitable HSR routes in the world, in France and Japan, and both connect gigantic metro areas. No one has been able to figure out how to make a system self-sustaining when it stops at small towns with populations of 60,000, like Utica.

Mind you, that's *real* high speed rail. The system being proposed in New York would only raise average track speeds from roughly 52 MPH to 71 MPH. That's roughly comparable to the running speeds of conventional trains during the heyday of passenger rail in the early 20th century. You're quite literally advocating that we spend untold billions on a system that will produce performance comparable to equipment from the 1940s.

If the same people who wonder why Utica looks so down and out are the same people fighting high speed rail, you need to get your logic in check!

Speaking of logic, could you point me to a single study supporting your contention that high speed rail in upstate NY will be anything other than a money sink?

I agree with Rev Turturro.

Sadly, trains aren't fueled by faith and magical thinking. If they were HSR, and the Reverend's bizarre rant, might make some sense.

Do you really want to help the local economy? Get rid of intrastate passenger rail completely. The US freight rail system outperforms every single other country's by huge margins in every respect. The only thing holding it back from even more explosive growth is the need to prop up the staggering dinosaur of passenger rail.

[Stu]

DazedAndConfused wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sorry, but can you tell us about California's current economic status? Oh, that is right, they are almost bankrupt. NYS is heading in the same direction. Liberals just want to spend, spend, spend. Live within your means. Stop spending my tax dollars on wasteful spending. If they were to try to build this, it will cost at least 50% more than what they say it will because unions will get involved. We don't need more union jobs because they are destroying NYS. RIGHT TO WORK!

And what's your solution to improve this mess of an economy that we have? Have you visited California, ever? Far more prosperity there than there is in highlhy depressed Upstate NY. Have you visited downstate NY lately? Far more prosperity there than there is in highly depressed Upstate NY. With a little bit of fast transit, that prosperity can spread north. Without it, it will surely spread in the places making appropriate infrastructure investments....China, India, California, and others. I don't like high taxes either but certain investments must be made. You should be questioning why the County Office building is too small yet the county's population has shrunk by 30% since it was built. You should be asking why the local municipalities have not consolidated services. You should be asking why more concessions aren't being made from public safety unions. You should be asking why Utica needs a tax payer funded, expensive union ambulance service. All of these contribute to high taxes. None of them contribute to private sector growth. I am sorry but you are asking the wrong questions and you are definitely part of the Upstate NY problem. When your kids go to the Silicon Valley to work because this region is so dead and riddled with nepotism for the few jobs that do exist, remember what you said and wished for!

[Da Law]

Stu wrote:

<quoted text>
California is doing it......compare the prosperous landscape in California to Upstate NY, and you will see that if this doesn't happen, we have a huge mistake from which we will never recover.

That would be the California with the $16 billion dollar deficit? The one undergoing a wave of municipal bankruptcies?

The Canal was never replaced nor was Upstate NY's heyday....

The Erie Canal was an economic juggernaut because it was both cheaper and faster for shipping goods than alternative forms of transportation. It died because, surprise, the railroad turned out to be even cheaper and faster than it was.

..this is sorely needed and long overdue.....implementing it would finally make New York one rather than two states between down and upstate.

I call shenanigans. When the area had a significantly larger population two decades ago it *still* couldn't support regular airline passenger service between Utica/Rome and NYC. That was with a subsidized ticket price roughly 2.5 times that of Amtrak and a one hour travel time. How is HSR going to be different? It only cuts a 5.5 hour trip down to 4 hours and the ticket price will be at least twice that of standard Amtrak service. Mind you, this is for a station that only has 175 riders on an average day.

http://www.democraticundergrou nd.com/10021072636

Perhaps you could take the time to link to a study, any study, showing the concrete benefits of HSR in upstate NY? That might actually be useful.

[Stu]

Da Law wrote:

<quoted text>
That would be the California with the $16 billion dollar deficit? The one undergoing a wave of municipal bankruptcies?
<quoted text>
The Erie Canal was an economic juggernaut because it was both cheaper and faster for shipping goods than alternative forms of transportation. It died because, surprise, the railroad turned out to be even cheaper and faster than it was.
<quoted text>
I call shenanigans. When the area had a significantly larger population two decades ago it *still* couldn't support regular airline passenger service between Utica/Rome and NYC. That was with a subsidized ticket price roughly 2.5 times that of Amtrak and a one hour travel time. How is HSR going to be different? It only cuts a 5.5 hour trip down to 4 hours and the ticket price will be at least twice that of standard Amtrak service. Mind you, this is for a station that only has 175 riders on an average day.
<quoted text>
Perhaps you could take the time to link to a study, any study, showing the concrete benefits of HSR in upstate NY? That might actually be useful.

You are comparing one Oriskany airport to the power of a cross state, multi-hub high speed transporation service? Let's just use apples and oranges to distort an argument. You are comparing California woes that come from many of the same woes we have -- that I've already cited -- and linking them to high speed rail, which has nothing to do with California's historic problems with public sector unions and other things? More apples and oranges. You are distorting my point on the Erie Canal, which was a commentary on the importance of appropriate transportation infrastructure investment as a spur for economic development, as is being done with high speed rail in emerging economies which typically take US and Upstate NY jobs. Get out of Utica my friend (maybe take a slow train ride to Westchester at least), and see how commerce is conducted around the globe. Insisting that a study be done to "prove" this all to you....or in other words...."no change until you prove it".....is a road to irrelevance......structured risk and competitiveness are just as important. Thank yourself and Utica attitudes like yours every time you see signs of this region's horrific suffering. If you know someone, maybe your kids can work for the Utica Fire Department.....those are the only high paying jobs in the region, pathetically. Too bad the taxpayers can't afford to fund them.

[Da Law]

Stu wrote:

<quoted text>
You are comparing one Oriskany airport to the power of a cross state, multi-hub high speed transporation service? Let's just use apples and oranges to distort an argument.

No, it's apples and apples. It's a concrete example that people will not pay for high speed service. And that was when the area's population wasn't in free fall.

You are comparing California woes that come from many of the same woes we have -- that I've already cited -- and linking them to high speed rail, which has nothing to do with California's historic problems with public sector unions and other things? More apples and oranges.

Then please, tell me how HSR is going to save California.'Cause, you know, it's going to have exactly the same inefficient, union and special interest dominated management approach as every other transportation initiative.

You are distorting my point on the Erie Canal, which was a commentary on the importance of appropriate transportation infrastructure investment as a spur for economic development, as is being done with high speed rail in emerging economies which typically take US and Upstate NY jobs.

Manufacturing left NY because it's too expensive to do business here. Your answer to that, apparently, is a project that will cost billions to construct and require billions more to subsidize for decades.

How exactly is that making NY a better place to do business?

Insisting that a study be done to "prove" this all to you....or in other words...."no change until you prove it".....is a road to irrelevance......structured risk and competitiveness are just as important.

And this is exactly the kind of rah-rah boosterism that has given the area an unbroken string of dismal development failures. There is absolutely no factual support for your contention that HSR will benefit Utica. None. Zero.

But somehow, if we all just wish hard enough, it'll work, by gum!

That's exactly the mentality that gave us such stunning projects as the Boston Store, Charlestown, Boston Store II, City Center, The Utica Film Company, and, of course, Union Station.

You know, the Union Station that was supposed to be a multi-modal regional passenger transportation hub? We invested, and invested, and kept on investing to the tune of over $40 million inflation adjusted dollars over the last three decades. It was supposed to become a bustling center of commerce filled with shops and multiple transportation options.

And now it's a just an Amtrak ticket counter surrounded by government offices.

Thank yourself and Utica attitudes like yours every time you see signs of this region's horrific suffering.

I wasn't aware that asking for evidence that a proposed project would actually succeed was an example of "Utica attitudes". Frankly, I think exactly the opposite is the case. Every single development disaster, and that list is a loooooooong one in Utica, has been the result of blind boosterism.

You want a great infrastructure project that will benefit the area? Fix the sewers. Last I checked the tab for that, including both the Utica municipal system and the Sauquoit Creek overflow, was around $300 million dollars. That would do far more to improve the quality of life in the Utica area than some pie in the sky fantasy.

[Stu]

Da Law wrote:

<quoted text>
No, it's apples and apples. It's a concrete example that people will not pay for high speed service. And that was when the area's population wasn't in free fall.
<quoted text>
Then please, tell me how HSR is going to save California.'Cause, you know, it's going to have exactly the same inefficient, union and special interest dominated management approach as every other transportation initiative.
<quoted text>
Manufacturing left NY because it's too expensive to do business here. Your answer to that, apparently, is a project that will cost billions to construct and require billions more to subsidize for decades.
How exactly is that making NY a better place to do business?
<quoted text>
And this is exactly the kind of rah-rah boosterism that has given the area an unbroken string of dismal development failures. There is absolutely no factual support for your contention that HSR will benefit Utica. None. Zero.
But somehow, if we all just wish hard enough, it'll work, by gum!
That's exactly the mentality that gave us such stunning projects as the Boston Store, Charlestown, Boston Store II, City Center, The Utica Film Company, and, of course, Union Station.
You know, the Union Station that was supposed to be a multi-modal regional passenger transportation hub? We invested, and invested, and kept on investing to the tune of over $40 million inflation adjusted dollars over the last three decades. It was supposed to become a bustling center of commerce filled with shops and multiple transportation options.
And now it's a just an Amtrak ticket counter surrounded by government offices.
<quoted text>
I wasn't aware that asking for evidence that a proposed project would actually succeed was an example of "Utica attitudes". Frankly, I think exactly the opposite is the case. Every single development disaster, and that list is a loooooooong one in Utica, has been the result of blind boosterism.
You want a great infrastructure project that will benefit the area? Fix the sewers. Last I checked the tab for that, including both the Utica municipal system and the Sauquoit Creek overflow, was around $300 million dollars. That would do far more to improve the quality of life in the Utica area than some pie in the sky fantasy.

And this is exactly why lawyers don't make good CEO's.....they can argue up a storm with a whole list of no's but couldn't create anything viably innovative nor grow a business if their life depended on it. I hope you're a divorce lawyer or something far away from business. Championing stagnation isn't the answer and fixing the sewers is unimaginative maintenance work not a growth initiative to spur commerce and business development in New York State.

[Never Happen]

Typical liberal,when you are losing an agument attack the person. That productive.

[Tony P]

Stu wrote:

<quoted text>
And this is exactly why lawyers don't make good CEO's.....they can argue up a storm with a whole list of no's but couldn't create anything viably innovative nor grow a business if their life depended on it. I hope you're a divorce lawyer or something far away from business. Championing stagnation isn't the answer and fixing the sewers is unimaginative maintenance work not a growth initiative to spur commerce and business development in New York State.

I couldn't agree more. We shouldn't be wasting money on things like sewers that work and streets that aren't goat paths. Instead, we need a monorail. A glorious, shiny, high speed monorail!

[Stu]

Tony P wrote:

<quoted text>
I couldn't agree more. We shouldn't be wasting money on things like sewers that work and streets that aren't goat paths. Instead, we need a monorail. A glorious, shiny, high speed monorail!

I never said that fixing the sewers and streets weren't necessary. Those need to get done as a matter of routine and there are many other places from which to squeeze money to fund them (local government consolidation, elimination of redundant services that are or can be privatized like Utica's ambulance, tougher union negotiations and concession, elimination of costly overtime, etc.). If routine sewer repair is Utica-Rome's idea of economic development, this region will indeed shrink to nothing. The place to cut is not transportation infrastructure at a time when the economy has gone global and competitors for work like India, China, and others are making such investments. With the thinking on this board (let nothing change, take no risk, condemn the wrong initiatives, uphold routine maintenance as a path to economic development when the competitive stakes are at an all time high, and let the status quo in government waste stand instead of challenging that to fund hygiene), it is no wonder Utica is so horribly backward. You people have really stuck it to your kids. Wow.

[huh]

So where is this HSR going to run on? The existing CSX mainline? Or are we going to carve out a completely separate right of way and lay in new infrastructure? Oh and never mind all those property owners along the way, they just love imminent domain.
Right now… on this very day, Amtrak travels on the CSX main at 80mph, if you don’t believe me, get yourself a scanner and listen to the defect detectors when they call out the axle count and train speed.
Freight typically goes from 50-60mph, and Amtrak goes 80mph.

The speeds the trains can go are dictated by: track conditions, system congestion, train stopping distance (an Amtrak can stop a lot sooner than a 1 mile long freight) number and frequency of grade crossings and weather conditions.

So it sounds to me that you will never go faster on the existing rail than you do now. So what does that leave us with? Empty the system of all freight traffic to give a hi-baller a clean shot? Haahahahah yeah right… Upgrade the rails; super elevate every curve and put crossing gates on every crossing??? Hahahahaha yeah right…

Establish a new right of way, construct infrastructure at the tune of billions and hope that people will use it? WHAT????

Now let’s move on to people… who is actually going to use this? Commuters? Commuters to where? NYC? Boston? Do you really think there are enough people (hundreds? tousands?) who live up here that will go down there on a daily basis? Or the other way around? People live where their jobs are, the only type of people that commute are the ones that can afford it, and THEY ARE NOT THE ONES TO USE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. They use the beautiful people methods. Private planes, charters, etc.

High speed rail has no place in upstate NY. There are just not enough people moving around here. The only place that high speed rail would make sense is downstate, or between Mexico and the Midwest for all the farmers. As long as heavy freight shares the same rails as passenger service, you will never go faster than what you do now.

If you want to juice up Upstate NY, add lanes to the thruway and make them like out west, 90mph or higher. Redo the toll plazas on the thruway so that you can enter and exit at a high rate of speed and not get stuck winding through S-turns behind a semi truck. There’s no reason that the biggest road in the area should terminate onto Genesee Street. What a freaking joke, I should be able to get off the thruway and get right on 790 or 12 and not go below 60mph… Also, remove the private corporation bullshit and make it a freeway.

And here is an idea…

Instead of focusing on a steel-rail train, what about a ROAD TRAIN. Add 2 lanes to the thruway right of way, and reserve them for “high-speed-long-bus”. Take 5 bus’s and join them together, make it hybrid electric, aero dynamic, and you could even lay electrified track on the ground so that it is “green”. This thing drives in its own lane at 150mph and stops at stations just like a train. Its a lot lighter than a regular train, so bridges and infrastructure where it leaves the thruway corridor would cost less, you could float it right into a city center elevated above everything. It would be a lot cheaper to build and maintain and you won’t have to compete with freight traffic, and you won’t be dealing with specialized maglev bullshit that consumes huge amounts of electricity and requires specialized parts and support.

Think outside the box people, steel rails are for heavy freight, road trains are the way to go.

[Ron the Dreamer]

You people need to stop relying on facts. It's upsetting Stu and his dream.