Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72024 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70478 Mar 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know. The whole thing seems shakier than most. Joseph Smith was a known charlatan with a long criminal record. Everything was based on his own word as far as I can tell.
The Mormons are a very powerful, controlling, wealthy and secretive group.
They are listed as the 4th largest religion in the US, so they must be doing something right.
(I read that somewhere this weekend.)
No question they are controlling. In fact, that is the opposite of naivety (which I am assuming is the stereotype the musical is making fun of?).

What they are doing right is that they wrestled a homeland, using violence, and continued to build up their institutions over time. Hyper-organized.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70479 Mar 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know. The whole thing seems shakier than most. Joseph Smith was a known charlatan with a long criminal record. Everything was based on his own word as far as I can tell.
The Mormons are a very powerful, controlling, wealthy and secretive group.
They are listed as the 4th largest religion in the US, so they must be doing something right.
(I read that somewhere this weekend.)
not as secretive as they would hope to be anymore

http://www.amazon.com/Unveiling-Grace-Story-M...
Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church

If I recollect, there was another big expose during the mid 90s as well - billed at the time as the "first" expose.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70480 Mar 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
not as secretive as they would hope to be anymore
http://www.amazon.com/Unveiling-Grace-Story-M...
Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church
If I recollect, there was another big expose during the mid 90s as well - billed at the time as the "first" expose.
I remember seeing the various exposes - 60 Minutes/Dateline-type shows - about them. You'd think you were dealing with KGB at times. Big money and power.

I don't believe every word I see or hear but after a while you have to wonder.

I think they would like to think the play was just mocking some stereotype but to me it was doing as good a job at making fun of the religion itself and many of their beliefs.

For example "The Garden of Eden is in Missouri." Now why that sounds any sillier than if it were wherever the bible said it was.....is a good question....but it does!

"Adam-ondi-Ahman (/ęd&#601;m &#593;&#720;nda&#6 18; &#593;&#720;m&#601 ;n/, sometimes clipped to Diahman) is a historic site along the east bluffs above the Grand River located about five miles south of Jameson in Daviess County, Missouri. According to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), it is the site where Adam and Eve lived after being expelled from the Garden of Eden. They believe it will be a gathering spot for a meeting of the priesthood leadership, including prophets of all ages and other righteous people, prior to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam-ondi-Ahman

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#70481 Mar 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
no, not at all. I dont think most people think this through. That play was intended to poks fun at Mormons in general. But in general that stereotype is probably mainly because of the youth factor.
The Mormons loose a huge percentage of believers a year due to the mission rite of passage.(source: dated a Mormon long long time ago)
What stereotypes are you referring to?

Their beliefs are all well documented. Their missions are ubiquitous and witnessed by many. What exactly are you referring to as a stereotype?

In their defense, however, their religion is no weirder than most other religions.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#70482 Mar 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
not as secretive as they would hope to be anymore
http://www.amazon.com/Unveiling-Grace-Story-M...
Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church
If I recollect, there was another big expose during the mid 90s as well - billed at the time as the "first" expose.
The Internet and the ubiquitousness of information makes keeping secrets pretty difficult these days. Just ask the Scientologists; or the NSA.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#70483 Mar 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I remember seeing the various exposes - 60 Minutes/Dateline-type shows - about them. You'd think you were dealing with KGB at times. Big money and power.
I don't believe every word I see or hear but after a while you have to wonder.
I think they would like to think the play was just mocking some stereotype but to me it was doing as good a job at making fun of the religion itself and many of their beliefs.
For example "The Garden of Eden is in Missouri." Now why that sounds any sillier than if it were wherever the bible said it was.....is a good question....but it does!
"Adam-ondi-Ahman (/ęd&#601;m &#593;&#720;nda&#6 18; &#593;&#720;m&#601 ;n/, sometimes clipped to Diahman) is a historic site along the east bluffs above the Grand River located about five miles south of Jameson in Daviess County, Missouri. According to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), it is the site where Adam and Eve lived after being expelled from the Garden of Eden. They believe it will be a gathering spot for a meeting of the priesthood leadership, including prophets of all ages and other righteous people, prior to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam-ondi-Ahman
Human Nature. Stories coming from ancient manuscripts create an illusion of authenticism and truth due to their longevity. It's the old Argument From Age (Wisdom of the Ancients) logical fallacy.

But really, stories of ancient religions (2000+ years old) are no sillier than Mormonism or any other modern religion. Take mainstream Xtianity, for instance. A child (through no fault of their own) is born with original sin. So God sent himself (Jesus) in human form to be sacrificed to himself in order to save mankind. So now, Xtians eat his body and drink his blood (real, not metaphor, according to Catholics), and all is good.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70484 Mar 31, 2014
Relation to Judaism

See also: Mormonism and Judaism

Although Mormons do not claim to be part of Judaism, Mormon theology claims to situate Mormonism within the context of Judaism to an extent that goes beyond what most other Christian denominations claim. The faith incorporates many Old Testament ideas into its theology, and the beliefs of Mormons sometimes parallel those of Judaism and certain elements of Jewish culture. In the earliest days of Mormonism, Joseph Smith taught that the Indigenous peoples of the Americas were members of some of the Lost Tribes of Israel. Later, he taught that Mormons were Israelites, and that they may learn of their tribal affiliation within the twelve Israelite tribes. Members of the LDS Church receive Patriarchal blessings which declare the recipient's lineage within one of the tribes of Israel. The lineage is either through true blood-line or adoption. The LDS Church teaches that if one is not a direct descendant of one of the twelve tribes, upon baptism he or she is adopted into one of the tribes. Patriarchal blessings also include personal information which is revealed through a patriarch by the power of the priesthood.

The Mormon affinity for Judaism is expressed by the many references to Judaism in the Mormon liturgy. For example, Smith named the largest Mormon settlement he founded Nauvoo, which means "to be beautiful" in Hebrew. Brigham Young named a tributary of the Great Salt Lake the "Jordan River". The LDS Church created a writing scheme called the Deseret Alphabet, which was based, in part, on Hebrew. The LDS Church has a Jerusalem Center in Israel, where students focus their study on Near Eastern history, culture, language, and the Bible.[69]....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Cosmol...

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70485 Mar 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
What stereotypes are you referring to?
Their beliefs are all well documented. Their missions are ubiquitous and witnessed by many. What exactly are you referring to as a stereotype?
In their defense, however, their religion is no weirder than most other religions.
I am writing on the assumption that the stereotype (based on viewing the Youtube that FR posted) of a young naive missionary who believes every last drop.

Its been my experience, and assumption, that "buy in" is less for the older members. They are more in it for the sense of community and perhaps (within the elite) power.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70486 Mar 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I remember seeing the various exposes - 60 Minutes/Dateline-type shows - about them. You'd think you were dealing with KGB at times. Big money and power.
I don't believe every word I see or hear but after a while you have to wonder.
I think they would like to think the play was just mocking some stereotype but to me it was doing as good a job at making fun of the religion itself and many of their beliefs.
For example "The Garden of Eden is in Missouri." Now why that sounds any sillier than if it were wherever the bible said it was.....is a good question....but it does!
"Adam-ondi-Ahman (/ęd&#601;m &#593;&#720;nda&#6 18; &#593;&#720;m&#601 ;n/, sometimes clipped to Diahman) is a historic site along the east bluffs above the Grand River located about five miles south of Jameson in Daviess County, Missouri. According to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), it is the site where Adam and Eve lived after being expelled from the Garden of Eden. They believe it will be a gathering spot for a meeting of the priesthood leadership, including prophets of all ages and other righteous people, prior to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam-ondi-Ahman
Their beliefs are no sillier than any other religion.

What they are doing, regarding Eden, is geographically internalizing the myth. I am sure they are not the first group to read the bible, and say "aha".

I remember listening to Jerry Garcia once at a Dead show, convinced that he was sending is lyrics straight to me.(certain substances helped me along with this idea). Same process. Making meaning.

I have run into a number of people here in CT who when seeing glacial erratics (big rocks in the forest) are convinced they were left by vikings. Is that any sillier?

All religion is silly from the outside. Inside is a different game altogether.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70487 Mar 31, 2014
Nevertheless, the LDS Church differs from the many other churches within contemporary Christianity, and many people do not accept the church as part of Christianity.[91] The faith itself views other modern Christian faiths as having departed from true Christianity[92] via a general apostasy and that it is a restoration of 1st-century Christianity and the only true and authorized Christian church.[93] Differences between the LDS Church and most of traditional Christianity include disagreement with aspects of the Nicene Creed, belief in a unique theory of human salvation that includes three heavens (referred to as "degrees of glory", its interpretation of I Cor. 15:35 et.seq.),[94] a doctrine of "exaltation" which includes the ability of humans to become gods and goddesses in the afterlife,[95] a dietary code called the Word of Wisdom, and unique ceremonies performed privately in LDS temples, such as the endowment and sealing ceremonies.


Latter-day Saints believe in the resurrection of Jesus, as depicted in this replica of Bertel Thorvaldsen's Christus statue located in the North Visitors' Center on Temple Square in Salt Lake City
Officially, major Christian denominations view the LDS Church as standing apart from creedal Christianity.[96] Leaders of the LDS Church assert that the LDS Church is the only true church and that other churches do not have the authority to act in Jesus' name.[97]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Je...

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70488 Mar 31, 2014
former res wrote:
Relation to Judaism
See also: Mormonism and Judaism
Although Mormons do not claim to be part of Judaism, Mormon theology claims to situate Mormonism within the context of Judaism to an extent that goes beyond what most other Christian denominations claim. The faith incorporates many Old Testament ideas into its theology, and the beliefs of Mormons sometimes parallel those of Judaism and certain elements of Jewish culture. In the earliest days of Mormonism, Joseph Smith taught that the Indigenous peoples of the Americas were members of some of the Lost Tribes of Israel. Later, he taught that Mormons were Israelites, and that they may learn of their tribal affiliation within the twelve Israelite tribes. Members of the LDS Church receive Patriarchal blessings which declare the recipient's lineage within one of the tribes of Israel. The lineage is either through true blood-line or adoption. The LDS Church teaches that if one is not a direct descendant of one of the twelve tribes, upon baptism he or she is adopted into one of the tribes. Patriarchal blessings also include personal information which is revealed through a patriarch by the power of the priesthood.
The Mormon affinity for Judaism is expressed by the many references to Judaism in the Mormon liturgy. For example, Smith named the largest Mormon settlement he founded Nauvoo, which means "to be beautiful" in Hebrew. Brigham Young named a tributary of the Great Salt Lake the "Jordan River". The LDS Church created a writing scheme called the Deseret Alphabet, which was based, in part, on Hebrew. The LDS Church has a Jerusalem Center in Israel, where students focus their study on Near Eastern history, culture, language, and the Bible.[69]....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism#Cosmol...
Chuckle.

I dont know if you ever noticed this, but about 50-75% of all English place names in the US are rooted in the bible. And even though they may sound "English"to you, a Hebrew speaker can tease out fairly easily the actually underlying Hebrew. At least the Mormons disposed with the pretensions and went straight to the transliteration.

They are not the first group to claim lost tribe either.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70489 Mar 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
What stereotypes are you referring to?
Their beliefs are all well documented. Their missions are ubiquitous and witnessed by many. What exactly are you referring to as a stereotype?
In their defense, however, their religion is no weirder than most other religions.
Permit me to revise my explanation of the stereotype (which incidentally stems from FR).

A naive missionary who steps into an "exotic" culture and misunderstands almost everything around (i.e. in the musical -walks obliviously into an insurgent camp), and thinks exposure to LDS will cure all social ills, especially those that arent really even ills. I.E. its not just the mormon belief system - its the naivety regarding the native culture)
Abolish The Fed

Baltimore, MD

#70490 Mar 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Human Nature. Stories coming from ancient manuscripts create an illusion of authenticism and truth due to their longevity. It's the old Argument From Age (Wisdom of the Ancients) logical fallacy.
But really, stories of ancient religions (2000+ years old) are no sillier than Mormonism or any other modern religion. Take mainstream Xtianity, for instance. A child (through no fault of their own) is born with original sin. So God sent himself (Jesus) in human form to be sacrificed to himself in order to save mankind. So now, Xtians eat his body and drink his blood (real, not metaphor, according to Catholics), and all is good.
Do you love your parents?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#70491 Mar 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
...All religion is silly from the outside. Inside is a different game altogether.
Having been on the inside myself, I can attest that it is just as batshxt crazy there as it is on the outside.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70492 Mar 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>

But really, stories of ancient religions (2000+ years old) are no sillier than Mormonism or any other modern religion.
Hey Brainless Idiot,

Which are these silly stories of ancient/modem religions are you referring to?

Give me 2 or 3 examples (excluding creation from nothing which is really an irrational teaching of certain faiths) and I'll show you some deeper meaning beneath the myths, metaphors and allegories.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70493 Mar 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>

A child (through no fault of their own) is born with original sin.
No child is born "tabula rasa".

Had you thought a little deeper you wouldn't have made that stupid comment.

A child is born with his ancestral psychology, emotionality and physicality contributed by both father and mother and so in this sense it may be said that the psychological, emotional and physical flaws are inherent in the new born ("sins of the parents are on their children").

Besides, if reincarnation is valid, in keeping with causation and in view of the dozens of verified cases of past birth memories, then, the child's consciousness holds his previous birth tendencies which cannot be explained by heredity in many instances.

So, in either instance or in both ways, no child is born with a clean slate (tabula rasa).

Understand, now?

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70494 Mar 31, 2014
TABULA RASA - IRRATIONAL

If a kid is born tabula rasa, which, any way, is not the case since even new borns display certain marked propensities on account of heredity/past life tendencies, then, such a child born with a clean slate, should be perfect from day one in all ways since psychological, emotional and physical flaws being absent in him should not mar his personality. No one is born perfect. Each person is born with a mix of good and adverse traits or tendencies. A kid born without adverse/beneficial traits would be a blank slate and his case would be similar to the absurdity of creation ex nihilo and as such this infant devoid of personality would either die or develop haphazardly. LOL.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70495 Mar 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Their beliefs are no sillier than any other religion.
What they are doing, regarding Eden, is geographically internalizing the myth. I am sure they are not the first group to read the bible, and say "aha".
I remember listening to Jerry Garcia once at a Dead show, convinced that he was sending is lyrics straight to me.(certain substances helped me along with this idea). Same process. Making meaning.
I have run into a number of people here in CT who when seeing glacial erratics (big rocks in the forest) are convinced they were left by vikings. Is that any sillier?
All religion is silly from the outside. Inside is a different game altogether.
The trick is not to get sucked in in the first place!:))

And certainly there many avenues one can take towards embracing the myth.

(For me it was a Yes concert at the New Haven Coliseum in the mid 70s! I was convinced they were playing for a stoned audience - which might have been true - and specifically for me!)

I don't know that all religions are created equal. I don't think so. But that could be for another day or two or three.(Christianity certainly takes another giant leap of faith beyond the OT. While Buddhists are fairly loose. from what I hear/you tell me.)

But it's true what CoR said that antiquity somehow bestows a certain weight or respect in some of us.(How about the pejorative term "nouveau riche?" Johnny come lately etc )

Of course this is more about appearances than substance. So one still has to do the research.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70496 Mar 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Human Nature. Stories coming from ancient manuscripts create an illusion of authenticism and truth due to their longevity. It's the old Argument From Age (Wisdom of the Ancients) logical fallacy.
But really, stories of ancient religions (2000+ years old) are no sillier than Mormonism or any other modern religion. Take mainstream Xtianity, for instance. A child (through no fault of their own) is born with original sin. So God sent himself (Jesus) in human form to be sacrificed to himself in order to save mankind. So now, Xtians eat his body and drink his blood (real, not metaphor, according to Catholics), and all is good.
Very true.

Not too long after I was confirmed, I realized I probably should have declined. Though that wouldn't have gone over well at that young age.(Plus I would have missed out on a nice little party a few gifts....though I doubt I made out near as well as Frijoles did!)
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70497 Mar 31, 2014
Abolish The Fed wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you love your parents?
Are you really ATF or is this Dr. Phil?

Test question: Where should one go for the best cheesy garlic bread in Stamford?

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