Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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#70340
Mar 27, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

You asserted a connection between pop Tantra and the Torah. I asked you elaborate.
Pop Tantra?

There's nothing like Pop Tantra.

There's right-handed (spiritual) Tantra and left-handed Tantra (sensual/negative) Tantra.

The negative aspect of Tantra and teachings of Torah are barbaric involving murder, blood sacrifice, threats, abuse, curses etc. Both are forms of sorcery. Nothing refined or spiritual or profound about left-handed Tantra and Torah.

Didn't you know this ordinary thing?

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#70341
Mar 27, 2014
 
Left-handed Tantra is called vaamachaari Tantra.

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#70342
Mar 27, 2014
 

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The dynamic descent of the force of the higher consciousness from the planes that lie above the head has unsettled my nervous system as the descent is too powerful. I am finding it difficult to endure it. I am aglow and am experiencing many subtle phenomena with light, sound and heat being the manifestations. The force has descended all the way to the abdominal region and is vibrating my entire being/body. Need to assimilate the force. I am swaying. it's a powerful yogic experience. I can barely keep my eyes open as the force is causing my eyes to upturn like in deep trance. Bye. Later.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#70343
Mar 27, 2014
 

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HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe--- My memory tells me that the substance in his blood should not have been at the level it was based on its half-life. It was a long time ago but that is what my memory tells me. I believe it was some preservative.
Former---There was a trail of his blood from the crime scene to his truck to his bedroom.
Guilty.
HughBe--- Intelligent of you. I take it that a trail of blood from point x via the road to your house miles away means that you are responsible for it.
More than likely.

I think nowadays, with cameras everywhere and advanced forensic science, it would be hard to get away with a crime. Maybe in Jamaica but not here.

So be careful when you drug Frijoles and drag him to church.

Have you ever been bitten by a snake while at church?
JOEL

Mumbai, India

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#70344
Mar 27, 2014
 

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ADAM,

You have the intelligence level of a garbage cleaner. Expected.

I'll reply to your posts later.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#70345
Mar 27, 2014
 
HughBe wrote:
We have a lot of bible thumpers here, like you :))
HughBe--- There are not many like me anywhere on this planet.
This why we would like to meet you and visit with you.
HughBe wrote:
Former---Bygones. We also used to have slaves. Get with the times my man.
HughBe--- Son it cannot be bygones. It shows the INTENT of the founders. One cannot intentionally or unintentionally misrepresent the ORIGINAL INTENT and it is acceptable.
On the matter of slavery is it part of the Constitution? Did the Constitution speak to the enslavement of whites and other races?
“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?”

&#8213; Robert Browning, Men and Women and Other Poems

In other words our ideals are often higher and better than our actions.

The intent of the founding fathers is spelled out - separation of church and state; all men are created equal.

Do not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good, my friend.
HughBe wrote:
This is called human rights or civil rights.
Former---I would think as a person of shiny color you would appreciate the rights of minorities being protected and upheld.
HughBe--- Indeed I am a minority in INTELLIGENCE, CHARACTER and INTEGRITY but as a non-white person I am in the MAJORITY in the world and in Jamaica.
So this means that you don't care about minorities? civil rights? human rights?

I would be surprised if you said yes.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#70346
Mar 27, 2014
 
HughBe wrote:
Former---Would you like a cross burned on your front lawn?
HughBe--- Which MONGREL could do that and get away with it?
This was common practice in the southern US not all that many years ago (along with church burnings).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_burning

Done by a nice little club known as the KKK.

And similar harassment and intimidation of gays as well.

Is this ok with you?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#70349
Mar 28, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
This why we would like to meet you and visit with you.
<quoted text>
“Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?”
&#8213; Robert Browning, Men and Women and Other Poems
In other words our ideals are often higher and better than our actions.
The intent of the founding fathers is spelled out - separation of church and state; all men are created equal.
Do not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good, my friend.
<quoted text>
So this means that you don't care about minorities? civil rights? human rights?
I would be surprised if you said yes.
What it is looking like is that Huggie, living (poorly) a heterosexual life, middle class, christian,(arguably) male and living in a country with a substantial black population, never really has experienced racism, class-ism, religious discrimination, or homophobia.

So he is oblivious. Lacks empathy.

If he was in the US and white he surely would be a follower of Rush Limbaugh or Michelle Bachman, and definitely a Republican. His position in life and world view is in synch.

The irony, of course, is that if he DID live in the US, AS IS, he would never be accepted within this wing, and likely they would chase his shiny tush away. Only so many Herman Cains allowed, and I doubt he would rise up to be a Clarence Thomas.

former res

Cheshire, CT

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#70350
Mar 28, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
What it is looking like is that Huggie, living (poorly) a heterosexual life, middle class, christian,(arguably) male and living in a country with a substantial black population, never really has experienced racism, class-ism, religious discrimination, or homophobia.
So he is oblivious. Lacks empathy.
If he was in the US and white he surely would be a follower of Rush Limbaugh or Michelle Bachman, and definitely a Republican. His position in life and world view is in synch.
The irony, of course, is that if he DID live in the US, AS IS, he would never be accepted within this wing, and likely they would chase his shiny tush away. Only so many Herman Cains allowed, and I doubt he would rise up to be a Clarence Thomas.
Fair analysis.

The lack of empathy part is interesting and also disturbing. How some people seemingly cannot imagine having a certain problem or issue unless it already affects them directly. These are the same folks who live as though the world revolves around them..

And he clearly has the "follower" mentality. When asked why he is against gays, he says it's due to his religious beliefs or "God told me to think this" or some such. Maybe he feels that lets him off the hook somehow.

Definitely closer to a Herman Cain than a Clarence Thomas, agreed. But first he'd have to build a successful business and become a multi-millionaire. But he'd certainly be entertaining like Herman was.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#70351
Mar 28, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Fair analysis.
The lack of empathy part is interesting and also disturbing. How some people seemingly cannot imagine having a certain problem or issue unless it already affects them directly. These are the same folks who live as though the world revolves around them..
And he clearly has the "follower" mentality. When asked why he is against gays, he says it's due to his religious beliefs or "God told me to think this" or some such. Maybe he feels that lets him off the hook somehow.
Definitely closer to a Herman Cain than a Clarence Thomas, agreed. But first he'd have to build a successful business and become a multi-millionaire. But he'd certainly be entertaining like Herman was.
Though I think it is still a question of why, despite his lack of empathy, he partially dwells on American racial politics - his sympathy for OJ etc etc.

I'd imagine it comes from the SAME root of his persona that never misses an opportunity to knock Judaism - basically a hatred for all things American (or Jewish)- probably because our American tolerance is an existential threat to his identity and lifestyle, which of course involves superimposing his theocracy over everything.

Just speculating....

And of course, the more I think about it, he is more Cain than Thomas. Cain is an entertaining fellow. Thomas not. But both tools in the eyes of whitie.

I dont doubt Huggies ability to empire build - he is obviously diligent and intelligent in certain ways, though not self reflective.

HUGGIE - when you read this, please realize we are saving you vast sums of money that would normally go towards psychotherapy.

former res

Cheshire, CT

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#70352
Mar 28, 2014
 
Yes, Huggy - please know that our incisive analysis and helpful observations come form a place of caring. If we didn't care, we wouldn't spend the time to discuss you, your attributes and your challenges.

We want you to succeed and only want all the best for you in every phase and domain of your life.

We would love for you to reach your full potential and self-actualize as we know you are capable of doing.

From your helpful American friends.

Since: Aug 11

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#70353
Mar 28, 2014
 
former res wrote:
This was common practice in the southern US not all that many years ago (along with church burnings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_burning
Done by a nice little club known as the KKK.
And similar harassment and intimidation of gays as well.
Is this ok with you?
This video, which conveniently just came out today, seems very apropos to the conversation at hand.

http://youtu.be/WtjMFh9MJGQ

Since: Aug 11

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#70354
Mar 28, 2014
 
former res wrote:
Right, so the thumpers can't force prayer in public schools, but in many states they still teach creationism./ID; and no nativity scenes in town squares. so generally they can't force their beliefs on the rest of us.
But this law would force them to PAY for what is effectively an abortion (the morning after pill). This runs squarely against their religious beliefs.(Thought again Christians have been forced to vaccinate their kids and so on)) But abortion is a very hot button issue needless to say. And it's not like the employees can't pay for this one benefit themselves, those few it would affect.(Again just playing devil's advocate here..)
Here's my arguments against your "devil's advocate" argument...

It was my understanding that, due to the initial backlash, the law was updated so that the burden of providing the contraception was shifted from the employers to the insurance companies. Now, you can argue that the cost is fungible, but it's also my understanding that providing contraception saves the insurance company money in the long run since pregnancies are far more expensive to cover. Therefore, I don't see how any company is being forced to do anything against their religion.

Here's another argument I would have liked to see from the Supreme Court. If a company paying a ladies salary learns that she plans on paying for an abortion with that money, do they have a right to withhold that pay or to fire her for that reason? What she does with that money is her own business. Likewise, what she does with her insurance is also her own business. I fail to see the difference.

I also believe the Jehovah's Witness / Christian Scientist argument is a very valid one. Blood transfusions, surgical procedures, etc... are all big no-no's to these guys. Why wouldn't they be allowed to exclude these items from there insurance policies if we allow special exclusions for birth control?

And finally, what of the Xtian pharmacists who refuses to dispense birth control because of their religious beliefs? Should they be allowed to do so?

Slippery slopes, indeed!

Unfortunately, the right leaning side of the Supreme Court is failing to look at this issue logically, rationally and from a strictly legal perspective. Instead, they are focusing on ideology, informed by their religious beliefs.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#70355
Mar 28, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
This video, which conveniently just came out today, seems very apropos to the conversation at hand.
http://youtu.be/WtjMFh9MJGQ
Very much so!

Huggy, check this video out and let us know what you think.

(I had to click through to this link to get to video

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/ )

Thanks

Happy Friday all
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#70356
Mar 28, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's my arguments against your "devil's advocate" argument...
It was my understanding that, due to the initial backlash, the law was updated so that the burden of providing the contraception was shifted from the employers to the insurance companies. Now, you can argue that the cost is fungible, but it's also my understanding that providing contraception saves the insurance company money in the long run since pregnancies are far more expensive to cover. Therefore, I don't see how any company is being forced to do anything against their religion.
I remember when my employer paid 80% and the employee share was 20% of health insurance premiums. This has definitely shifted but the employers I know of are still paying around 2/3s of more of premiums. So they are paying the lion's share. And many (including my wife's last employer) "self-insure" so the insurance co is only there to handle the paperwork and provider relationships.

In other words, I would see this as a moot point, who is actually cutting the check for birth control. It's largely being paid for by the boss.

Also, cost effectiveness (and other good reason) has never held much water for true anti-choice folks. Many also tithe which is not cost effective for the families.

But if I own a company, and my religion is dead set against abortion, I would argue that the law is forcing me to pay for that which goes against my religion - abortion.

Now for some legal reason (which I don't know as yet) this particular case does not address or allow to re-open the discussion of what is and isn't abortion but a good argument could be made that the morning after pill and IUD is a form of early abortion.

This guy's freedom to practice his religion is being threatened. Do the employees' rights get to trump his?
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's another argument I would have liked to see from the Supreme Court. If a company paying a ladies salary learns that she plans on paying for an abortion with that money, do they have a right to withhold that pay or to fire her for that reason? What she does with that money is her own business. Likewise, what she does with her insurance is also her own business. I fail to see the difference.
Companies evidently can fire/not hire/or charge more for insurance for smokers and maybe soon obese people. It all depends and who is a "protected class." Those who get abortions - not a protected class though their religion itself (or lack thereof) could be protected??

Generally (absent an employment contract or a union) we have "employment at will" where either side can end it any time without reason. Again as long as no discrimination is involved.

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#70357
Mar 28, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Very much so!
Huggy, check this video out and let us know what you think.
(I had to click through to this link to get to video
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/ )
Thanks
Happy Friday all
The direct YouTube link didn't work for you?

What about this link: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/...
former res

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#70358
Mar 28, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I also believe the Jehovah's Witness / Christian Scientist argument is a very valid one. Blood transfusions, surgical procedures, etc... are all big no-no's to these guys. Why wouldn't they be allowed to exclude these items from there insurance policies if we allow special exclusions for birth control?
I agree that it was an excellent argument and that the retort from HobbyLobby's lawyer was weak. That somehow abortion was "special" in terms of a religious objection. Talk about bias.

He should have just stuck to his argument: "Exactly! How does the gov't get to trample all over our dearly held religious beliefs so that a few slxts can kill their babies?!!" [editorialized]

But seriously, who is he to say that abortion is any more important to believers than blood transfusions or vaccinations?
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
And finally, what of the Xtian pharmacists who refuses to dispense birth control because of their religious beliefs? Should they be allowed to do so?
Slippery slopes, indeed!
Similar as the store owners forced to serve gays. Or make their wedding cakes.

Or diners owners forced to serve black folks.

It's all about whose rights trumps whose rights.

Do we force ladies gyms to accept men? Or do we say they can go to men's gyms or co-ed gyms? Where do we draw the line.

I think generally we're doing ok and things are moving in the right direction. The dems re-branded gay marriage as marriage equality and now it polls much better. Even legal weed is spreading. My pot smoker friends have been held down by the man for way too long!
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Unfortunately, the right leaning side of the Supreme Court is failing to look at this issue logically, rationally and from a strictly legal perspective. Instead, they are focusing on ideology, informed by their religious beliefs.
Fair enough/ But I can see the other side as well.

Almost always when you grant one group new or special or any rights, it's at the cost of another group. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just tends to be the case.

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#70359
Mar 28, 2014
 
former res wrote:
Companies evidently can fire/not hire/or charge more for insurance for smokers and maybe soon obese people. It all depends and who is a "protected class." Those who get abortions - not a protected class though their religion itself (or lack thereof) could be protected??

[QUOTE who="former res"]
Generally (absent an employment contract or a union) we have "employment at will" where either side can end it any time without reason. Again as long as no discrimination is involved.
One could argue that firing someone over a medical procedure (abortion) IS discrimination. I'm no lawyer, but unless the employer is a religious institution with a morality clause that specifically spells that out up front, I can't envision that being legal. Coming from the corporate world, I can tell you that, even with the notion of "employment at will", firing someone is not as easy as you may think.

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#70360
Mar 28, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I remember when my employer paid 80% and the employee share was 20% of health insurance premiums. This has definitely shifted but the employers I know of are still paying around 2/3s of more of premiums. So they are paying the lion's share. And many (including my wife's last employer) "self-insure" so the insurance co is only there to handle the paperwork and provider relationships.
In other words, I would see this as a moot point, who is actually cutting the check for birth control. It's largely being paid for by the boss.
Also, cost effectiveness (and other good reason) has never held much water for true anti-choice folks. Many also tithe which is not cost effective for the families.
But if I own a company, and my religion is dead set against abortion, I would argue that the law is forcing me to pay for that which goes against my religion - abortion.
Now for some legal reason (which I don't know as yet) this particular case does not address or allow to re-open the discussion of what is and isn't abortion but a good argument could be made that the morning after pill and IUD is a form of early abortion.
This guy's freedom to practice his religion is being threatened. Do the employees' rights get to trump his?
<quoted text>
Companies evidently can fire/not hire/or charge more for insurance for smokers and maybe soon obese people. It all depends and who is a "protected class." Those who get abortions - not a protected class though their religion itself (or lack thereof) could be protected??
Generally (absent an employment contract or a union) we have "employment at will" where either side can end it any time without reason. Again as long as no discrimination is involved.
Have you seen this?

http://news.yahoo.com/jon-stewart-reveals-abs...

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#70361
Mar 28, 2014
 
[QUOTE who="former res"...It's all about whose rights trumps whose rights.[/QUOTE]
But here's the crux of the thing where I don't think we'll be able to meet eye to eye -. I don't believe a business offering insurance that covers contraception is having their religious rights taken away any more than a business that pays a salary to someone who chooses to use that money to do something against the employer's religious beliefs. Whether it's salary or insurance, it's up to the employee how they choose to use it.

What kills me is that this really is just a farce to whittle away at the ACA. Prior to the ACA, multiple Catholic organizations were offering insurance that covered contraception, and no one ever made a big deal about it.

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