Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72025 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#69337 Mar 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
What you're saying is religion is somehow off limits. Sacred?
.
Wars have been fought, and people have been slaughtered in the name of religious proselytizing (or what you call, marketing). Totally different history than the car industry. If Nissan had a history of persecuting others, I would advocate banning or at least limiting their outreach activities as well.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#69338 Mar 13, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a good question and sort of a catch-22. If your against the cross, you come across looking like a jerk. If you're for it, then what next?
American Atheist is, if nothing else, consistent. The main impetus of their argument is separation of church and state. We should all be for that (atheist or believer). The argument is that once you start making exceptions, you are setting a precedent that you know will be taken advantage of at some point in the future.(Case in point - Ten Commandments in court houses, Nativity scenes on town hall lawns, prayers to open local government meetings, etc, etc, etc...)
I happen to take a very black and white approach to this problem. If it's government funded, then you either have to allow displays from any and all faiths (and no faiths at all), or you don't allow any. Obviously, the second option is easier.
I dont think you would necessarily come off as a jerk for opposing the cross. The question would be to what extent are religious displays allowed in the museum? If the museum, through its bylaws, outlaws religious displays, then case closed. If the bylaws dont address it, then they can be amended but the display grandfathered, if the BOD desires this.

The point being that the debate should be over the abstract principal, not the cross in particular. That way, it is more objective, and not tailored to a specific religion.

Also, I wonder if a middle ground couldnt be found. Display the beams, but with no signage. Let the viewers assign meaning to it on their own, if they choose. At the end of the day, they ARE beams.

Since: Aug 11

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#69339 Mar 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I've always said I'm more pragmatic than idealistic, to a point that is.
But this does strike me as a PR nightmare for the chosen independent thinkers among us!:))
Though I respect their position.
I wouldn't for example fight to get "In god we trust" off the money.
I don't think it would ever happen and the pragmatist in me would say let it go.
I am against nativity scenes at town hall and the like.
I, too, see this as a pragmatic issue, only, I take the opposite position as you. Allowing one exception opens the door to allowing more exceptions, and it becomes an issue of practicality. Best to avoid the issue all together by not allowing it in the first place.

FWIW - Based on some of the blogs I read, the atheist community (as loosely defined as they are) are split fairly evenly on this issue.

Stephen Colbert did a funny take on this issue, though, of course, I disagree with him this one time (hey, nobody's perfect)...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/...

Since: Aug 11

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#69340 Mar 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont think you would necessarily come off as a jerk for opposing the cross. The question would be to what extent are religious displays allowed in the museum? If the museum, through its bylaws, outlaws religious displays, then case closed. If the bylaws dont address it, then they can be amended but the display grandfathered, if the BOD desires this.
The point being that the debate should be over the abstract principal, not the cross in particular. That way, it is more objective, and not tailored to a specific religion.
Also, I wonder if a middle ground couldnt be found. Display the beams, but with no signage. Let the viewers assign meaning to it on their own, if they choose. At the end of the day, they ARE beams.
It's already gone too far...

1. The beams were consecrated via a religious ceremony.

2. An atheist plaque was rejected.

This is as one-sided and religiously motivated as it gets. And lets not forget that this shrine (umm, museum), is partially funded with public money.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#69341 Mar 13, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
It's already gone too far...
1. The beams were consecrated via a religious ceremony.
2. An atheist plaque was rejected.
This is as one-sided and religiously motivated as it gets. And lets not forget that this shrine (umm, museum), is partially funded with public money.
Well, then the aggrieved need to bring the issue to court.

Since: Aug 11

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#69342 Mar 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, then the aggrieved need to bring the issue to court.
That's what AA is doing. Actually, it's in appeal since the courts sided on the side of the cross. My guess is that AA will lose based on some technicality. And, unfortunately, they've already lost to the court of public opinion as well :-(

I'm actually more concerned right now on the fact that the House overwhelmingly voted in favor of H.R. 1814 which will allow religious exemptions to the ACA. What's worse is that 80 Democrats signed on as co-sponsors.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

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#69343 Mar 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
And did you know the honey badger is an exceptionally clever, resourceful and formidable animal?
And they make the BEST shaving brushes. I have three (brushes, not honey badgers).

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

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#69344 Mar 13, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
It's already gone too far...
1. The beams were consecrated via a religious ceremony.
2. An atheist plaque was rejected.
This is as one-sided and religiously motivated as it gets. And lets not forget that this shrine (umm, museum), is partially funded with public money.
I'm as opposed to religious proselytism as anyone, but I refuse to be offended by a religious reliquary. If I were, I couldn't enter a museum, monument, or pretty much any public building in the world without seeing religious iconography (almost never the iconography of my own religion).

I've been to theAnkor Wat, The Great Mosque of Sophia (previously the great Church of Sofia), the Taj Mahal, the Western Wall and the Crystal Cathedral in Anaheim. Some of it sublime, some of it tacky, but always stuffed to the rafters with religious iconography and always interesting.

Should we be offended by religiously-motivated art? I don't see why. Take a look at a Raphael Madonna and then Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ". Most people consider Raphael to be the superior artist and the Madonna's are arguably much less offensive.

If a piece of toast is believed the likeness of Simon Cananeus (despite the fact we don't know what he looks like) AND it is interesting enough that people will want to come and look at it, go ahead, put it in a museum. Those who are big fans of Simon the Zealot will be awed, those who are not will be amused -- everyone wins.

As for the inclusion of an "Atheist Plague" at a 911 museum, what on Earth would it say? You can't get 20 people to agree who destroyed the WTC, does anyone really need a bronze sign saying "This pile of rubble and hole in the ground are certified proof that G-d doesn't exist"? It's not artistically interesting and it's not even true.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#69346 Mar 13, 2014
Atheist Plague -- Freudian corset
aegege

T├│rshavn, Faroe Islands

#69347 Mar 14, 2014
Messianic jews are persecuted in Israel.
So what....

Stop being a faggot Christian.....Christianity is for gays....

Isreal only exists because of christian americans donating money to jews.

and because of the overwhelming jews in US government......

The jews have made lots of attrocities, killed 60 mio people in USSR.
The jews should pay for it with their lifes!!!!!

We gentiles should kill 60 jews!!

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#69348 Mar 14, 2014
RICK, the brainless gay nurse, is heavily into nude makeup.....

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#69349 Mar 14, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm as opposed to religious proselytism as anyone, but I refuse to be offended by a religious reliquary. If I were, I couldn't enter a museum, monument, or pretty much any public building in the world without seeing religious iconography (almost never the iconography of my own religion).
I've been to theAnkor Wat, The Great Mosque of Sophia (previously the great Church of Sofia), the Taj Mahal, the Western Wall and the Crystal Cathedral in Anaheim. Some of it sublime, some of it tacky, but always stuffed to the rafters with religious iconography and always interesting.
Should we be offended by religiously-motivated art? I don't see why. Take a look at a Raphael Madonna and then Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ". Most people consider Raphael to be the superior artist and the Madonna's are arguably much less offensive.
If a piece of toast is believed the likeness of Simon Cananeus (despite the fact we don't know what he looks like) AND it is interesting enough that people will want to come and look at it, go ahead, put it in a museum. Those who are big fans of Simon the Zealot will be awed, those who are not will be amused -- everyone wins.
As for the inclusion of an "Atheist Plague" at a 911 museum, what on Earth would it say? You can't get 20 people to agree who destroyed the WTC, does anyone really need a bronze sign saying "This pile of rubble and hole in the ground are certified proof that G-d doesn't exist"? It's not artistically interesting and it's not even true.
The difference in this case is that in the US, there is at least a pretense of LEGAL separation of church and state in a publicly funded venue. If there were no public funds involved, it would be a different story...The rest of the world does not function under that principle, and therefore can be conducted under different standards.

If there were no public funds, I would obviously agree with the idea that was is appropriate for a museum is in the eye of the beholder. As Stephen Colbert basically put it, what a SHOCK that from a building that was built on a steel frame with right angles, that two pieces of steel at a right angle survived. How heavenly - praise the Lord!

Dunno if the atheists were purporting to worship atheism, or to merely list prominent atheists who died. I believe it was probably the latter. Either way, if the door is to be opened, I strongly believe that any group should have a chance. If they want to locate Satans throne (out of rubble, of course) I am all for that.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#69350 Mar 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The difference in this case is that in the US, there is at least a pretense of LEGAL separation of church and state in a publicly funded venue. If there were no public funds involved, it would be a different story...The rest of the world does not function under that principle, and therefore can be conducted under different standards.
If there were no public funds, I would obviously agree with the idea that was is appropriate for a museum is in the eye of the beholder. As Stephen Colbert basically put it, what a SHOCK that from a building that was built on a steel frame with right angles, that two pieces of steel at a right angle survived. How heavenly - praise the Lord!
Dunno if the atheists were purporting to worship atheism, or to merely list prominent atheists who died. I believe it was probably the latter. Either way, if the door is to be opened, I strongly believe that any group should have a chance. If they want to locate Satans throne (out of rubble, of course) I am all for that.
The National Gallery in Washington DC. a publicly funded institution, is home to a fine collection of Byzantine religious artifacts as well as religious-themed art from dozens of artists, including Rembrandt, Raphael and Rubens. And it's not typically considered to be a religious institution.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#69351 Mar 14, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
The National Gallery in Washington DC. a publicly funded institution, is home to a fine collection of Byzantine religious artifacts as well as religious-themed art from dozens of artists, including Rembrandt, Raphael and Rubens. And it's not typically considered to be a religious institution.
yes, but people do not come to WORSHIP in front of those pieces of art. They are accepted as art, religious art, but not as subjects to worship with. Thats the difference. If the cross was just art, I would be fine with it. But it is intended as a memorial, as sacred worship space.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#69352 Mar 14, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
. And it's not typically considered to be a religious institution.
I missed that last sentence. Thats exactly what i was saying. The 911 crosses, as I understand it, is intended as a religious institution. Place for prayer.

My way of dealing with it, as I posted yesterday, is to display it but dont present signage encouraging public worship. If people want to pray in front of it, or eat popcorn in front of it, I could care less.But I hold the line at active marketing. The same for the gorgeous Byzantine artifacts.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#69353 Mar 14, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
The National Gallery in Washington DC. a publicly funded institution, is home to a fine collection of Byzantine religious artifacts as well as religious-themed art from dozens of artists, including Rembrandt, Raphael and Rubens. And it's not typically considered to be a religious institution.
Frijoles pretty much explained it. The cross is not being presented as art or historic artifact. If it were, no issue here. But, no honest person is clinging to that false pretense. The cross is meant as an active religious symbol on "sacred" ground. In essence, they've built an active shrine.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#69354 Mar 14, 2014
Why don't people here take objection to public displays of silly religious symbols like the MENORAH in secular democracies? Even if it is done during HANUKKAH to publicize the bull-shit miracle of the event it should be banned.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#69355 Mar 14, 2014
Candle lighting ceremonies of stupid religious symbols like Menorahs should be banned.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

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#69356 Mar 14, 2014
There should be no public display of any religious symbol.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

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#69357 Mar 14, 2014
JEWISH STUDENTS LAG BEHIND

Concessions given to Jewish students in admission to elite or not-so-elite universities in the US should be discontinued when the evidence shows that the SAT scores of Jewish students are inferior and not on par with the top performing students who're overwhelmingly non-Jewish. Besides, at university and at national/international competitions in Math, Physics and Chemistry, Jewish students perform quite miserably and are no where near the top. So, communal quotas in education should be banned. The Jewish founders of the universities, who insist on quotas for Jewish students, should be restrained by law. Admission to university education courses should be based only on merit.

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