Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72039 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66466 Jan 28, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Man! You make a lot of presumptions. You have no idea what my "way" is. Are you like this with everyone, or just the Jews?
I'm referring to your actions/words on this forum, Rick.

I'm referring to specifically what we have been discussing.

It sounds to me as though the attacker is feeling attacked.

Now who is it that is failing to have a "thick skin?"

In American we would say "You can dish it out but you can't take it."

Religious hypocrisy is admittedly a pet peeve of mine. Equal opportunity.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66467 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
...is something that goes right up my axx sideways. Call it a hobby.
We really don't need to know that much about you. We already have Hugh to share that kind of kinky detail.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66468 Jan 28, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you're being too literal. It would be ridiculous to compare Jeesus with a unicorn. Very few Jews have been slaughtered in the name of unicorns (none to my certain knowledge).
which is interesting in its own right, considering their (the unicorns) abundance

("there are no gays in Sochi" said the mayor yesterday as the reporter was on his way to one of two gay night clubs)

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66469 Jan 28, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Caustic? Moi? If anything, I have an overabundance of Hydrogen ions.
Buffering is everything these days

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66470 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm referring to your actions/words on this forum, Rick.
I'm referring to specifically what we have been discussing.
It sounds to me as though the attacker is feeling attacked.
Now who is it that is failing to have a "thick skin?"
In American we would say "You can dish it out but you can't take it."
Religious hypocrisy is admittedly a pet peeve of mine. Equal opportunity.
Hate to weigh in again, but technically speaking, Rick IS correct. He has yet to share his beliefs.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66471 Jan 28, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, what I said was ... "Judaism might be a myth, but it's MY myth."
What that means is, you might consider it a myth and I'm perfectly cool with that. Your beliefs effect my beliefs in no way whatsoever. My beliefs (unlike electrons going through a crystal lattice) don't change when they're observed. I might consider it a myth, literal truth, or historical allegory ... you don't know. You can only make assumptions.
Remember what happens when you make an assumption -- you make an ass out of you and umption.
I don't see where I've made any assumptions. I've been responding to your words.

If you see it differently, please point it out.

My point was simple:

You compared JC with unicorns.

There is no more evidence to support
the beliefs of any religion than there is
for the existence of unicorns.

That's it.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66472 Jan 28, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
We really don't need to know that much about you. We already have Hugh to share that kind of kinky detail.
You're being too literal.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66473 Jan 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Hate to weigh in again, but technically speaking, Rick IS correct. He has yet to share his beliefs.
Other than to say "Judaism is my myth" he has not.

But I don't think I said otherwise.

Hence it's a straw man argument.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66474 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see where I've made any assumptions. I've been responding to your words.
If you see it differently, please point it out.
My point was simple:
You compared JC with unicorns.
There is no more evidence to support
the beliefs of any religion than there is
for the existence of unicorns.
That's it.
But he wasnt presenting evidence to support his beliefs - he was criticizing the beliefs of others.

You can argue whether that behavior was "neighborly" (I would say yes (eye for an eye..), you would say no, perhaps), but he wasnt using that allusion to assert his beliefs behind his religion).

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66475 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Other than to say "Judaism is my myth" he has not.
But I don't think I said otherwise.
Hence it's a straw man argument.
Beg to disagree. You are arguing he is being hypocritical. He can only be hypocritical if he was using the unicorn argument to bolster his belief. He was not.

I dont think you were out of line for questioning his thought process. Thats what we do here. But I view that as an extracurricular affair - not germane to the motivation behind his comment.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66476 Jan 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But he wasnt presenting evidence to support his beliefs - he was criticizing the beliefs of others.
You can argue whether that behavior was "neighborly" (I would say yes (eye for an eye..), you would say no, perhaps), but he wasnt using that allusion to assert his beliefs behind his religion).
Nor did I say he had.

He stated what his own myth was.

On the side, are you saying it's ok to do whatever
anyone does to you? Are there any limits to this approach?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66477 Jan 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Beg to disagree. You are arguing he is being hypocritical. He can only be hypocritical if he was using the unicorn argument to bolster his belief. He was not.
I dont think you were out of line for questioning his thought process. Thats what we do here. But I view that as an extracurricular affair - not germane to the motivation behind his comment.
Would he ridicule his own beliefs in the same way?

I doubt it.

It's his chosen myth. Therefore it is better.

Perhaps hypocrite is not the correct word.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66478 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Nor did I say he had.
He stated what his own myth was.
On the side, are you saying it's ok to do whatever
anyone does to you? Are there any limits to this approach?
Doctrine of proportional response

also known as "eye in place of eye, tooth in place of tooth, hand in place of hand, foot in place of foot, burnt-scar in place of burnt-scar, wound in place of wound, bruise in place of bruise...."

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66479 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Would he ridicule his own beliefs in the same way?
I doubt it.
It's his chosen myth. Therefore it is better.
Perhaps hypocrite is not the correct word.
How do you know?

I find fundies (or any religion) lack sense of humor. Jews, otoh, invented self-deprecation.

But to get deeper - thats what I was getting back to with my labeling of your bias. Judaism isnt that beholden to personal belief, its actually quite fluid and robust with regard to God concept, so your unicorn analogy is not so critical. For example - concept of holiness. Ask a observant Jew what it means to be holy or to act holy and you might get 26 different interpretations and shades of meaning. You really can not compare it to fundie Christianity- which is rigid and lacks nuance.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66480 Jan 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Doctrine of proportional response
also known as "eye in place of eye, tooth in place of tooth, hand in place of hand, foot in place of foot, burnt-scar in place of burnt-scar, wound in place of wound, bruise in place of bruise...."
...and soon everyone is blind.

Fortunately the law doesn't quite see it that way.
Otherwise we'd all probably be dead by now.
Or in perpetual war. Hey, I guess we are!

Except under the great Jimmy Carter!:))
(I know you're a big fan.)

No shots fired by US military during his reign.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66481 Jan 28, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you know?
I find fundies (or any religion) lack sense of humor. Jews, otoh, invented self-deprecation.
But to get deeper - thats what I was getting back to with my labeling of your bias. Judaism isnt that beholden to personal belief, its actually quite fluid and robust with regard to God concept, so your unicorn analogy is not so critical. For example - concept of holiness. Ask a observant Jew what it means to be holy or to act holy and you might get 26 different interpretations and shades of meaning. You really can not compare it to fundie Christianity- which is rigid and lacks nuance.
Christians would also give a variety of responses. Jews aren't the only ones able to think for themselves, or laugh at themselves for that matter.

Ever listen to George Carlin? He used to talk about his days in Catholic school.

We're all cafeteria followers in our own way.

OTOH most religions have liberal and more conservative wings.

Fundies are the extreme, though admittedly there are a lot of them. esp in the heartland.

I could see a fundie Christian hillbilly shooting anyone who got near his still.
Thou shalt not kill be damned.

Heading out. Back tomorrow. Have a good one.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66482 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
...and soon everyone is blind.
Fortunately the law doesn't quite see it that way.
Otherwise we'd all probably be dead by now.
Or in perpetual war. Hey, I guess we are!
Except under the great Jimmy Carter!:))
(I know you're a big fan.)
No shots fired by US military during his reign.
You might not realize it, but the normative interpretation that verse is that you can monetize damages and sue. The key is proportional. I.E. as in not excessive. I.E. if you damage someones eye its not fair to go after their teeth....

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66483 Jan 28, 2014
Thank you for the judgements Stefano-idiot.

glad to see you are still here

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66484 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Would he ridicule his own beliefs in the same way?
I doubt it.
It's his chosen myth. Therefore it is better.
Perhaps hypocrite is not the correct word.
Would a Jew ridicule his own beliefs? Have you ever MET a Jew? We're not hard to find. Talk to your boss, your landlord, your parole officer ... try to get some first hand information on us.

Do I believe Judaism is better than other faiths? Yes, but only for me. I believe that whatever you believe is best for you (and if it's not, why would you believe it?).

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66485 Jan 28, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
...I could see a fundie Christian hillbilly shooting anyone who got near his still.
Thou shalt not kill be damned...
Hey! I happen to be a hillbilly (the Jewish variety) and we have a long history and rich culture. I find your condescending tone offensive to my people and my creed. I personally have never had to shoot anyone near my still because I keep it locked up. Prevention is better than cure.

And the biblical injunction isn't "Thou shalt not kill", it is "You shall not murder.", People kill all the time, we kill to eat, to keep our homes from of vermin and to survive. Murder, on the other hand is a completely different thing involving the deliberate killing of a person not in the defence of ourselves or others and (most of the time) I agree it's impolite to murder someone.

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