Justice For David Camm

Full story: Topix 8,254
WE CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR: THE ADMISSION OF EVIDENCE JUSTICE FOR KIM, BRAD & JILL FREEDOM FOR DAVID CAMM THE TRUTH...THE SIMPLE TRUTH On September 28, 2000, Kimberly, Bradley, and Jill Camm were shot to death in the Camm family garage, located in Georgetown, Indiana, just a few miles from Louisville, Kentucky. The Indiana State Police (ISP) responded to the scene, as did the local prosecutor, Stanley Faith, who called for the assistance of a blood stain and crime scene re-constructionist. Three days after the crimes occurred, the husband of Kim and the father of Jill and Brad, David Camm, was arrested. In early 2002 David Camm was convicted of their murders and sentenced to 195 years in the Indiana Department of Corrections. Case solved. Case closed. In August, 2004, the Indiana Court of Appeals overturned Camm's conviction. Camm got a new trial. In November, 2004, Prosecutor Keith Henderson recharged Camm after having a "Fresh Eyes" team re-investigate the crime. Camm was re-charged. In March, 2005, another man, Charles Darnell Boney, was charged with murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Camm was re-charged with Boney. In February, 2006, Boney was convicted and sentenced to 225 years in prison. Camm was convicted in March, 2006, and sentenced to life in prison without parole. Case solved. Case closed. Those are the facts of this case. Well, at least a few facts. Most people in the metropolitan area of Louisville are convinced that David Camm is a molester and murderer. They are convinced that Charles Boney helped him in some shape, manner, or form. There are those who know many more facts that are thoroughly convinced of David Camm's innocence and continue to fight for him and his family. Full Story
camm supporter

Southwest Brevard Cnty, FL

#1491 Jul 6, 2010
well put; unfortunately the denizens of southern indiana just hate this guy; another of the brilliant jobs done by the prosecutors; if God came down and said this guy was innocent, best camm would get from these people is a hung jury; i dont recall a single person in the juror surveys who expressed an opinion expressing that david is innocent or that the evidence is inconclusive
Whazzup

United States

#1492 Jul 6, 2010
Will Boney testify in Camm's next trial?

Has he cut a deal with the prosecutor?
Southern Indiana Denizen

Prospect, KY

#1493 Jul 6, 2010
camm supporter wrote:
well put; unfortunately the denizens of southern indiana just hate this guy; another of the brilliant jobs done by the prosecutors; if God came down and said this guy was innocent, best camm would get from these people is a hung jury; i dont recall a single person in the juror surveys who expressed an opinion expressing that david is innocent or that the evidence is inconclusive
Just because everyone disagrees
with the biased Lockhart family, you are assuming that everyone hates this guy. Get real, if everyone would subscribe to your way of thinking, he would have not even had a 1st. trial. A juror has no reason to express any reason of innocence or guilt because they have not gotten the true facts. Maybe you think they should agree with with you and just say he is innocent. But of course you think that everyone is an idiot, I believe that I read this on the blog somewhere. What a wonderful juror you would make.
EdSed

Liverpool, UK

#1494 Jul 7, 2010
Two reversals wrote:
..
If the prosecutors had such a strong case, why did they need to use unfair tactics?
(shortened for space)
Strong case?:-) They didn't know about Boney when they brought it and trusted these $300,000+ forensic "experts" to "explain it".

http://www.wlky.com/video/23835225/index.html
Mr Henderson portrayed the defence as “forum shopping” for venue and judge. Put fairly and objectively: there are now 3 possibilities to consider:
-New venue; new judge; & new prosecutor
- 1 or 2 of the above.
- none of the above.
(Naturally, a new judge must hear trial 3).

New judge?
Though it is normal for a judge to determine leave to appeal, it might not seem best practice for past judges to make these particular decisions regarding the next trial. Has Judge Aylesworth no bias regarding a future verdict now? Even subconsciously? Hopefully, his written decisions will adequately show that his justifications and rulings are sound - if the ISC doesn’t have to do it for him.

New prosecutor?
Mr Henderson previously argued that it is in the interests of justice for the people with the most knowledge and experience of the case to present it. Not the argument he offered this time, yet it is only strong one for keeping him as prosecutor, despite the damage this case (IMO) should have done to his reputation and standing. From:
http://indianalawblog.com/archives/2010/01/in...
“[Henderson] said the book deal was contingent on Camm’s conviction being upheld.”
An argument for a new prosecutor is that Mr H will now be seen by many as having deep personal interests in a guilty verdict and not just for book-of-the-crime royalties.

New venue?
If Mr David Camm were tried again at the same venue, how convincing will a verdict be either way? Compared with a verdict reached with a new prosecutor, judge and venue I mean. Not a question Mr H’ and Judge A’ prioritise, but crucial if one considers how important it is that the next verdict is received with less frank disbelief and far, far less serious criticisms.

Mr H:“These are the legal wranglings and games that get played in the practice of law,”
These wrangs & games are discrediting:$3m spent, ten years in prison and Mr C stands convicted of no crime at all and it looks unlikely he ever will be. Even if he is, the way it is gradually being achieved harms the reputation of these types of law court – particularly outside the USA from where the process looks demonstrably unsafe, even farcical. It mocks the NDAA too.
http://www.ndaa.org/publications/ndaa/new_hom...

Wouldn’t a 3rd guilty verdict be received with yet more disbelief and derision? The basic problem remains the lack of any convincing evidence that disproves Mr David Camm’s consistent story of what happened that night. He seems to have told the truth.(Camm’s deceit regarding his infidelities is no more than many other people are guilty of, including other members of the ISP [ODN p33]– and ruled irrelevant to the charges).
EdSed

Liverpool, UK

#1495 Jul 7, 2010
Whazzup wrote:
Will Boney testify in Camm's next trial?
Has he cut a deal with the prosecutor?
I was just thinking about that..
At a press conference in 2009, Henderson said he might call Boney to testify against David C at a possible third murder trial. Since Boney is a notorious liar his evidence must be corroborated or verified to have any value.(Or to be admissible?) There apparently never was a conspiracy (Camm effectively acquitted of that 2006? No evidence), so the only evidence he could give is the whereabouts of the gun. He could have done that from prison. Even following the implausible logic of the allegations, either he or Mr Camm would have had to get rid of it. Did Mr Camm get rid of that and the covering for his gym clothes in the short period he is supposed to have been absent from the gym? As well as the rendezvousing, cleaning, dog restraining and all the other things he was supposed to have done? The juries thought so then, which is what has attracted so much attention to this case, but unsurprisingly the ISC overturned the cases they viewed. It looks even more implausible with every passing year.

(To Kimmer re: p69/1399,“Welcome Back ..” Thanks. Too many commitments but try to follow this case very occasionally. Nice to see some interesting recent posts and that more people there asking the difficult questions).
http://www.mattoxwilson.org/blog2/blog1.php/2...
camm supporter

Southwest Brevard Cnty, FL

#1496 Jul 8, 2010
dear denizen

thanks for proving my point; that rant was as non-sensical as the 2nd jury foremen that said the molestation had everything to do with it, then when the supremes overturned, he said it had nothing to do with it except everything

maybe you are the 2nd jury foreman

read the surveys; i believe that about 69 of the 185 said camm was guilty and none of them said that they were unsure or thought he was innocent

thats what i was trying to say; good luck trying to re-read your post and deciphering what you were saying other than you hate the lockharts and camm and anyone who supports them

yada yada yada
kimmer

Jeffersonville, IN

#1497 Jul 9, 2010
razor wrote:
to kimmer you are an idiot he is proven qquilty twice shut up about it let him rot in prison
Since you are SOOOOO smart would you like to discuss the evidence that the State of Indiana has or does not have against David Camm? I doubt you would want to do that as it would take you knowing about this case which from your posts it appears you don't.
brother jake

Lexington, KY

#1498 Jul 11, 2010
Why in the universe is this posted in the Charlestown topixs forum? Was it news? These post here have nothing to do with the venue of the case, and can not influence the case outside the community in which the crimes were committed. Hence this will only amount to endless speculation.

Without referring these post to the forum of the community that the crimes occurred in. No influence of any kind will be realized.
Gaches

Birmingham, UK

#1499 Jul 11, 2010
Stumbled across this the other day. Interestingly, it's a case which involves Englert & Epstein and another blood splatter disagreement. It appears Englert's credentials and reliability are once again being brought into question. Bearing in mind it's the only physical evidence the prosecution have, it's just a tad concerning. It's worth a read if anyone's got five minutes and an open mind......

http://www.enddeathpenaltyforbretthartmann.co...
Southern Indiana Denizen

Prospect, KY

#1500 Jul 11, 2010
camm supporter wrote:
dear denizen
thanks for proving my point; that rant was as non-sensical as the 2nd jury foremen that said the molestation had everything to do with it, then when the supremes overturned, he said it had nothing to do with it except everything
maybe you are the 2nd jury foreman
read the surveys; i believe that about 69 of the 185 said camm was guilty and none of them said that they were unsure or thought he was innocent
thats what i was trying to say; good luck trying to re-read your post and deciphering what you were saying other than you hate the lockharts and camm and anyone who supports them
yada yada yada
Did my post touch a nerve, you seem awfully excited. Sometimes the truth does hurt.
camm supporter

Southwest Brevard Cnty, FL

#1501 Jul 12, 2010
oooooooooh, it really touched a nerve dude; good job faking me out and getting me going; i should have known that you were just teasing and that you could not possibly be as ignorant as your posts indicate
camm supporter

Clermont, FL

#1502 Jul 12, 2010
i guess the case has now finally been moved; now its in spencer county; i assume this means the supreme court is saying move this case along; hopefully the new judge will get to the venue issue asap; we will see what he thinks of getting rid of the former prosecutor of the year as a former prosecutor himself; but i'm assuming it will still take a while to schedule all these things; i'm not really getting this at all why the temporary move to a new temporary judge and why it took so long for the supremes to agree that its taking too long but hopefully it will start to pick up speed
camm supporter

Southwest Brevard Cnty, FL

#1503 Jul 23, 2010
it is curious that a judge with one years experience as a judge and 8 years as a prosecutor was given this case by the chief judge shepard who hates camm; i hope this was a fair decision and that dartt is not known as closed minded pro-prosecution; i wonder what dartt thought of henderson when henderson was co-winner of the prosecutor of the year award in about 2006; maybe dartt would think its not right to try to do that book and maybe he would be concerned about the foolish decisions of the prior judges about letting in the bogus molestation evidence; as they say, we shall see
EdSed

Liverpool, UK

#1504 Aug 1, 2010
Gaches wrote:
Stumbled across this the other day. Interestingly, it's a case which involves Englert & Epstein and another blood splatter disagreement. It appears Englert's credentials and reliability are once again being brought into question. Bearing in mind it's the only physical evidence the prosecution have, it's just a tad concerning. It's worth a read if anyone's got five minutes and an open mind......
http://www.enddeathpenaltyforbretthartmann.co...
(Englert discussed about p12)
From:
http://www.dailyvanguard.com/debunking-the-cs...
Quote:...from real life cases that [Mr E] has worked on. For instance, a dispute between a man and his girlfriend, where the man claims he was standing 40 feet away.“He has tiny little specks on him, which is consistent with a gun spatter,” Englert said.“That tells me he's lying because he had to be within three feet of her. The tinier the specks, the less distance it traveled.”

‘Consistent with’ does not equate to ‘had to be’. The Camm case also apparently proves that Englert cannot know if crucial blood spatter is caused by gunfire or a number of other means, but he does not admit even to doubts.

From:
http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/deadline/...
“[Hartmann] lifted her body, which was difficult because one leg was tied to the bed with a pair of pantyhose. It was then he noticed that Snipes had no hands.”
And
“[Mr E] also stated that Snipes' hands had been removed by someone experienced with cutting flesh — a doctor or maybe a cook.”

More bold guesswork.(Similar to the assumption that Jack the Ripper (1887) had to be a surgeon, or maybe a butcher?) Perhaps it shows why some prosecutors prefer him to less emphatic scientists?

“Bandy's forensics "expert," Rod Englert, had no formal science education. His résumé appears to have been misrepresented or outright falsified. In a New York trial, Englert altered the laws of physics to better fit the prosecution's case when he told the jury that blood spatter never falls straight down, but always at a 45-degree angle. Real experts, like Herbert MacDonnell, have called him a "liar for hire." (Cleveland Science).

Mr E did not even get to the Camm crime scene for 3 months.

This allegation (and others) seem to require investigation by official enquiry..
From a comment on:
http://www.beloblog.com/WHAS_Blogs/CammBoney_ ...
“Layne said:.. I attended the first trial and tried to convict Davie myself, but I could not put him there nor am I convinced that those 8 dots are velocity splatter. After I learned that Rod Englert lied about one particular larger dot. He lied to me and the jury and said it was brain tissue of Jill's. It was never tested!!”

What would people trust Englert? He is an ex-cop. He has conducted 492 training seminars on managing criminal investigations, solving unresolved homicides, forensic hypnosis, blood spatter interpretation and crime scene reconstruction to law enforcement personnel and district attorney’s in 35 states, as well as in Canada, Russia, and England. He has consulted in over 273 homicides in the United States and testified in homicide in 20 states. He has done some good work and is liked by certain prosecutors who share his apparent disregard of the importance of expert consensus.
Hopefully, he’ll never work in the UK again.
fry ole dave

Trafford, PA

#1505 Aug 3, 2010
meliss1106 wrote:
<quoted text>
You never met David!So you have no right to judge him! I knew David I know he loved his family!!
........Oh yes he loved his family , thats the reason he cheated on his wife . what was he suppose to have bout a dozen girlfriends . have sex in the median of the interstate while on duty . yes he loved his wife and family . and you want the truth about ole dave . why do they try to hide his personal life and his life as a dirty cop . tax payers is paying for the 3rd trial . the average joe would of never gotten the 2nd trial . but a dirty ex-cop will keep getting them till hes found innocent
grow up

Fort Knox, KY

#1506 Aug 4, 2010
fry ole dave wrote:
<quoted text>........Oh yes he loved his family , thats the reason he cheated on his wife . what was he suppose to have bout a dozen girlfriends . have sex in the median of the interstate while on duty . yes he loved his wife and family . and you want the truth about ole dave . why do they try to hide his personal life and his life as a dirty cop . tax payers is paying for the 3rd trial . the average joe would of never gotten the 2nd trial . but a dirty ex-cop will keep getting them till hes found innocent
love it.... and it is true. how many times does this man need to be found guilty before it flippin sticks? and to all the defenders of "david camm"... you better hope you are right. i pray that he will be convicted again, but if he is not, just know that a man that had it in him to kill his entire family will be walking the streets amoung us here in floyd county.
camm supporter

Southwest Brevard Cnty, FL

#1507 Aug 5, 2010
always good to hear from hicksville...good to see that even in the internet age hicksville hasnt lost its ignorant charm; camm is not getting a 3rd trial because he's a former cop you idiot

i think judge dartt will ship this case out to indianapolis and hopefully kick henderson off the case; these 2 prosecutors have been nothing short of a joke in terms of their ethics and professionalism; the case should be given to a new prosecutors office

and if you are a new albany person, why dont you "grow up" and try to prove the guy is guilty instead of just accusing him; are you telling me that boney and camm conspired to murder his family and noone in your little podunk town ever even saw them together? hard to believe
grow up

Fort Knox, KY

#1508 Aug 5, 2010
not sure where the hicksville thing comes in. you are the one that sounds ignorant. to make fun of the place we live, really mature, and you are telling me to "grow up". yeah... kind of hypocritical dont you think>??? just sayin. and i hope that they do send this trial as far away from here as possible, but i also know that he has already been found guilty how many times, he will be found guilty again. he killed his family, he and boney hanging out in public wouldnt have been something he would have done while conspiring to kill his beautiful children and wife...wouldnt you think? this man was a state police officer, a not so straight arrow as is seems, so i am sure he thought to dot all his I's, you family members need to stick to the sappy website for david...you get to defensive over your opinions. we are all entitled to our own. no need for you to poke fun of a city, or the people who live here. shame on you!
EdSed

Liverpool, UK

#1509 Aug 5, 2010
fry ole dave wrote:
<quoted text>........Oh yes he loved his family , thats the reason he cheated on his wife . what was he suppose to have bout a dozen girlfriends . have sex in the median of the interstate while on duty . yes he loved his wife and family . and you want the truth about ole dave . why do they try to hide his personal life and his life as a dirty cop . tax payers is paying for the 3rd trial . the average joe would of never gotten the 2nd trial . but a dirty ex-cop will keep getting them till hes found innocent
So any man who cheats on his wife does not love his family? And why would he kill his children? That is why these blinkered authorities were pleased to believe the rather implausible molestation theory.

And IF ten years were especially good treatment, what would that say about US justice?
EdSed

Liverpool, UK

#1510 Aug 5, 2010
grow up wrote:
<quoted text>love it.... and it is true. how many times does this man need to be found guilty before it flippin sticks? and to all the defenders of "david camm"... you better hope you are right. i pray that he will be convicted again, but if he is not, just know that a man that had it in him to kill his entire family will be walking the streets amoung us here in floyd county.
How many flippin’ times? The convictions were overturned, so Mr Camm has never been convicted of any charges – molestation, conspiracy, fraud, murder – none of it. The principle of innocent until proven guilty should apply.

How would I feel if Mr Camm was released and went on to murder or molest “again”?

This was something I carefully considered well before making any comment. I see no convincing evidence he has not told the truth from day one (apart from the irrelevant infidelity, of which many ISP officers are rumoured to be guilty), but there is ample proof that these authorities are incompetent and it is they who “walk the streets amongst us”. I have not voiced an insincere criticism or doubt and am prepared to stand by my comments. Also, there is Wm Blackstone’s principle..
http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/guilty.htm
..better ten guilty men..than one innocent..

Having considered that possibility, one must consider this too:

Would it be okay if my son were prosecuted this way? If he stood convicted of nothing, should people come here and talk as though he were guilty?

Faith in these authorities is looking rather blind. If these authorities’ actions go unchallenged one must expect degrading farces like this to recur.

As fryolddave points out, many people do defend and have faith in Mr David Camm, but few of us here defend him at all. I object to people being locked in prison for ten years without clear evidence of guilt because I feel it seriously harms the US justice system, the NDAA, the AAFS and the IABPA. It humiliates and discredits them (and western systems generally by implication). And access to a speedy trial?

Who is to blame for all this?(I recall Caveman’s comments re: state reps earlier). Your post 1508 is mere innuendo. No smoke without fire perhaps? Miscarriages of justice prove that is a saying, not a truism.

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