meme

Hollywood, FL

#142 Aug 2, 2010
This is one good thing about the internet. I have been a Croce fan since 11 years old. people would not be able to find this information 30 years ago. Thanks
meme

Hollywood, FL

#143 Aug 2, 2010
Trippin n double dippin wrote:
No One I have ever talked to in 45 yrs in this parish has Ever thought it was an accident. But that might just be what the Establishment wants us to remember.
I do know that after Eddie Money walked out after the show a very buzzed,young and over zealous fan (me)bent his ring finger shaking hands. I got the response i deserved and treasure the memory today!
woohoo
EDDY MONEY ????
Jason

Lubbock, TX

#144 Aug 16, 2010
I have been reading all of the posts and would like to share some information. I searched the web and found a few interesting things. First, if you want a great but chilling read, search for "Groundless" by Joseph A. Salviuolo. He was the guy that met Jim first and introduced him to Maury Muehleisen. This document chronicles the last couple of day of Jim and Maury's lives. He also covers how they found out about the accident and it goes on thru the Jim's funeral

Also, I did a search and got a hit on a wrongful death lawsuit in 1976 brought by Ken Cortese's widow. The lawsuit I was reading was an appellate court petition. In this document, it is part of the court record that Ken Cortese (Jim's road manager from Chicago who was also killed in the crach)had one joint in his coat pocket and various other "controlled substances" were found in luggage. Other than Ken Cortese, the lawsuit court documents to not specify who's luggage the drugs were found in.

I don't know believe it was Jim or Maury.

If you want another good read, search for the interview of Tommy West. He produced Jim's records and played piano on all of his songs.

The only downer in this is that Joseph A. Salviuolo passed away June 24th, 2010 and many great stories about Jim and Maury died with him.

Jason
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#145 Aug 16, 2010
Thanks Jason. I also read both, Joe's account of the last time he met Jim and Maury, which is a very emotional story; and also Tommy West's interview, a lot of things there about Jim.

If you want an account of their last hours, you can read "Falling stars - air crashes that filled rock and roll heaven" a book by Rich Everrit, but you find it online here.
http://books.google.ca/books...
It is interesting...and chilling.

Don't you find that the information out there about Jim is very contradictory? While Joe says that Jim was still broke, Tommy West says he was solvent.
While everybody looks at Jim and Ingrid Croce as the perfect family, Tommy West paints a very different story, saying they had very serious problems.

On the other hand I read that Jim wrote "I'll have to say I love you in a song" for somebody else, which does not match Ingrid Croce's story behind that song. Do you know anything about this?
There is a documentary out there: "Songman - The untold story of Jim Croce" but I could not get hold of it.

Do you know on what ground did Cortese's widow sued for wrongful death?
Jason

Lubbock, TX

#146 Aug 17, 2010
Wow, you bring some compelling questions! Before I begin, let me say that I have the utmost respect for Jim, Maury, Joe, Tommy and the extended Croce and Muehleisen families. I would never want to say or write anything that would hurt them or disparage the memories of Jim and Maury.

This will probably be a very long response and I apologize for that now. There will be a part 1 and a part 11 due to space issues on topix.

Part 1

The easy one... The link to the lawsuit is found as follows if you want to read it. http://openjurist.org/623/f2d/1084/croce-v-br...

Basically the original suit was filed in 1976 in Louisiana brought by Ingrid Croce et al and Linda Cortese et al. They filed the suit there because that is where the alleged "tort" took place. The merits of the suit were that Jim's agency hired Mustang Aviation to charter Jim's tour. They couldn't deliver the aircraft due to mechanical issues and got another company (Bromley Corporation dba Roberts Airways (Defendant)(yes, this stood for Robert Elliott who was the pilot that crashed the plane).

Based on testimony, Mustang never informed Jim's agency of the switch and the plaintiff argued that the "substitute" was not appropriate given Robert Elliott's health and lack of running a pre-flight check of the aircraft as well as other issues outlined in the suit. One of the issues raised was a phenomenon called a “black hole takeoff”. They say the pilot should not have taken off with this condition present. You have this kind of thing and it becomes a cocktail for disaster.

The link provided is the appeal that was made to the US 5th Circuit in Dallas dated August 1980. At the insistence of Sheriff James, Elliott's body was autopsied and his heart examined by a doctor that testified in the suit. None of the other bodies were autopsied.
Jason

Lubbock, TX

#147 Aug 17, 2010
Part II

Now the hard stuff...

I believe the devil is in the details and that is where we find our answers here. I have read both Joe and Tommy’s accounts and must side with Tommy.

Typically, recording artists are given a small advancement prior to the recordings release. When the sales come in, the royalties are then used to pay back the advance and then the cash flow stream goes to the artist. Jim was with a smaller record label and I don’t think this took place in his case but do not have the facts to confirm or deny this.

“Life and Times” was released in February 1973 and went gold in November 1973 after Jim’s death. I do not think that Jim or Maury realized the financial success of their music while alive.

His biggest hits so far (1973) had come from this album.“You don’t mess around with Jim” came out in 1972 and had two strong hits but Jim was just up and coming. The pot of gold had not come in yet.

I believe that there were issues in Jim’s marriage but then again, who doesn’t have issues from time to time. I think the “business” took all of his time and he was separated from his family a lot. There are several things at play here.

First, you look at the writing style Jim had and the influence that Maury had on Jim’s writing. Maury was a romantic and a musical genius. I believe the tender side of Maury helped Jim to write from his soul. They produced three albums in 18 months! Damn!!

If you look at the songs Jim wrote, almost all of them were regarding not only relationships, but, ones that were broken or in the process of breaking. This is not just technique; it is real soul… from the heart stuff.

People grieve differently, but if you read Joe’s account of Ingrid right after the crash and during the funeral it is amazing how she held up. What does that tell us…I don’t know I’m not a shrink? I believe Jim wanted to hurry up and finish the tour so he could go to meet her in San Diego to see their new home. That is why he wanted to get out of Louisiana and on to Sherman TX so quickly. He was ready to be done and take a break. He had Sherman TX on Friday and Las Cruces NM on Saturday, then to LA and San Diego for a rest. Never to be…

I don’t have any facts about the subject of Jim’s song “I’ll Have To Say I Love You In A Song.”

One of the most compelling things I have noticed in all of my readings is the true friendship that Jim, Maury, Joe and Tommy had. They were true friends. I believe that Tommy is a class act and gives us the facts without disclosing anything that would hurt Jim or Maury. And, you see the friendship and love just ooze from Joe when he talks about Jim and Maury. What a great bunch of friends they were.
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#148 Aug 17, 2010
Thanks for this great response, I agree with almost everything you are saying here.

I too would not want in ANY way to hurt Jim and Maury's memory, I love their music and I have a great respect for their hard work and for everything true they left behind. But I think the best way to honor somebody's memory is to try and understand who that person really was, and not fall for false images that, for one reason or another, might have been fabricated over the years. And here is where the confusion begins and where one is left "just wondering".

I will try to highlight a few facts that make me believe there is a false image out there:

Yes, when you look at the songs Jim wrote you know it is not just technique but "from the heart stuff". He never had the chance to write his autobiography, but it is all there, in his songs. You are compelled to understand the man behind the songs...BUT when you look at any "official" biography, you hardly find anything that matches his songs. Moreover, you are told that his songs were "composites" of characters and situations he encountered along the way. In other words, what you believed to be something true, coming from the soul, it is but a made up story and should be discarded. A false image emerges and you are left "just wondering".

I side with Tommy too, somehow I believe he knew Jim better than anybody else, maybe even better than Joe. When it comes to Jim's financial situation, it is most probable they were both right. What happened there was not something particular to Jim's situation but a result of the way music business works. "Falling stars..." says Jim was indeed advanced the funds to record the albums against his future earnings. I have no doubt that "the big check" was on its way. It is something that most artists have to go through when trying to establish themselves (and most of them are probably looking back with nostalgia, while on their yachts like - "Remember when we were broke and wandering around singing to whoever would listen to us?)...BUT we are told over and over again that Jim died penniless (which I agree is really tragic.) This fact shines a very negative light on Tommy&Co, while he had a big role in promoting Jim and Maury. Again: a false image,again you are left "just wondering".

We are told over and over again that the turning point in Jim's career was when he found out he was going to be a father. It was then when he decided to "become serious" (like working three jobs was not serious enough). Although I have no doubt that he was thrilled and felt a great sense of responsibility, it was NOT what set him off to write true songs. Meeting Maury was the turning point for Jim, just as you said. But again a false image emerges, an image that is meant to make the family bigger than life, and minimize Maury's role. And you are left "just wondering".

I agree the relationship between Jim and his wife had ups and downs like every relationship, and being away for extended period of times didn't help. But...
On the Songman documentary website it is stated: "It took 3 months to write and 1 day to record. Jim recorded his last song,“I’ll Have to Say I Love You in a Song” seven days before he died for friend and singer-songwriter, Patti Dahlstrom. On the day Jim Croce died, Patti repaid the favor and penned a tribute song to Jim Croce titled, Sendin' My Good Thoughts To You." Now after 36-years of silence, Patti sets the record straight about the love song Jim Croce wrote for her!"
...I have not seen the documentary and I don't know how she "sets the record straight" and I am not going to fantasize about it. Moreover, it was not his last song, I heard him (on a live recording)singing that song, most likely for the first time, on November 15 72 in Cleveland. He was saying that he just finished the song "the other day" and just found a title for it. BUT...
No more space, I have more, but I'm not even sure I should write all this stuff here. But, do you see my point?
Jason

Lubbock, TX

#149 Aug 18, 2010
Thanks for the awesome response. It is about time that I found someone that knows what they are talking about. I want to make a complete reply but am pressed for time right now. I will write it tomorrow. I hope you do post more, in fact, I'll take all you got.
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#150 Aug 19, 2010
I was not sure if I should go on with this, as I don’t want to write in the open things that might seem so controversial, so I want to stress that this is just my own understanding after looking very hard into everything I was able to find out there. My quest only had one reason and purpose: I simply wanted to understand Jim. Nothing else.

So I left my story in Cleveland when he sang “I’ll have to say I love you in a song”. Coincidentally, during the same concert he states that he flew into Cleveland from LA. Maybe its nothing, but I think its worth noting. Given the contradictory information on this song, and trying to understand, you go on Patti Dahlstrom website. In her biography there is a paragraph where she recounts how she met Jim and became very good friends “a support system for each other”. Then she recounts how she felt when she heard the news of Jim’s death and then you listen to the song she wrote that night.(I’ll come back to this later).
I don’t have the facts, the details, I can only try to understand reading between lines. It doesn’t seem like such a big deal, a song claimed by two parties, who cares. But in trying to understand, you have to go back and read the “book” Jim wrote through his songs.
It starts with “You don’t mess around with Jim”, a handful of songs recorded on October, 1971, released only in May 73. If you go through the list of songs on that album, you get the feeling things are still good.“A long time ago” is a good song”,“Tomorrow’s gonna be a brighter day”– just your normal ups and downs in a relationship. Jim did write composites songs as well, based on characters and situations he encountered, because he was a very intelligent guy, a keen observer of human nature and a great story teller, add the great sense of humour and you get the picture. So I think many of the songs in this album are “story telling” songs, and my personal opinion is that “Operator” is one of them.(I’m not gonna go into details now).
But somehow, things change. Was it the new artistic partnership, the old artistic partner who felt left behind, the intensive touring they set off to, the money that doesn’t come in? All together? But Jim starts “singing the blues”:
“Life and Times”:
One less step of footsteps/ Next time, this time/A good time man like me/ It doesn’t have to be that way/Alabama rain/These dreams/Dreaming again.(recorded May, June, August 72). All songs are talking about anger, broken hearts, nostalgia, longing, in other words personal turmoil. All the other songs are character, funny songs (“Thank God for his incredible sense of humour. There were times when that alone kept him going”– Joe Salviuolo).
More touring, tiredness, and somehow Jim stops talking about his feelings that much, but when he does, its quite big.
“I Got a name”
I’ll have to say I love you in a song/Recently/Lover’s cross and I am going to add The hard way every time, its like a conclusion to his life.
(Listen carefully to Recently).
Now, if you step back and look at the big picture, it is impossible not to see the importance of “I’ll have to say I love you in a song” it sticks out: it is the only love song Jim wrote, that was set in the present, and not tainted by pain, nostalgia, anger. A true, sincere love song.
But then you read the official story behind the song: written as an apology following a dispute on financial issues?(and just to note here – you can’t find your words around your women after 10 years of being together???)
And followed by “Lover’s cross”?(I read two accounts saying this was his last song).
And then you read Tommy’s account of what Jim was going through at the time..
And you are really, really left wondering…
We will never know the truth, and I don't care about the details, but, unless you believe Jim was a big lier, there is one thing you can get from this whole story: Jim was going through very serious mental and emotional turmoil at the time of the crash.
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#151 Aug 19, 2010
Was this a factor in the decision he made that night in Natchitoches?

But before I get there, I will skip forward in time for just a few hours. I put together whatever accounts I found on how people felt when they heard about Jim’s death. Joe (I was stunned. The world had turned upside down), Tommy (I was frozen), Steve Angelucci (I was hoping it was a mistake), Patti (life had shifted dramatically, the sun was rising on a very different world for me.), and just people who loved Jim’s music (“I’ve changed that day”,“I was crushed”,“I could not stop crying”– there are many these kind of statements on youtube, after all these years people still remember that day)…and another account you find it in the paragraphs you mentioned in Joe’s Groundless and in “Falling stars…”.(Like I knew it would happen…it was the only way he’d stop). No comment.

Having all these in mind, one is struggling to understand what happened in Natchitoches. Actually many people still try to understand, this thread is a proof.
Was it the pilot, was it the plane, the trees, the black hole? The truth is that none of these would have come into being an issue if Jim didn’t take that faithful decision to fly out that night…at night.
Here I don’t agree with what is said, that he rushed out of Natchitoches because he wanted to be done with touring and meet his wife. It doesn’t make sense. If it was Las Cruses, then I would understand, but why rush out of Natchitoches only to get to Sherman, Texas for another concert? There are just three possibilities:
- He wanted to get out of Natchitoches
- He wanted to get to Sherman sooner (and why Sherman when on the initial schedule was Dallas?)
- Neither of the above, he simply wanted to “get going”

I have no idea. If somebody has any clue…let me know.

But here the information is contradictory as well. Most of the people say that he decided to fly out at the last moment, after the concert. I found an article published in the University’s paper on September 25, 1973 in which is said:“Last stop for Jim Croce: Jim Croce puffed on a little cigar and strummed his guitar as he talked of his recent T.V. appearances, his favorite performers and the tiredness he was feeling after so many one night concert stops. His final interview took place in a football dressing room in Prather Coliseum. "Later tonight we're flying to Sherman, Texas," he replied when asked
about his next engagement.” If this is true, it suggests that he had already planned, before the concert, to fly out of Natchitoches. But it is still a weird decision. I don’t buy into the drug stuff and I don’t think it had anything to do with his decision that night.
About his last concert, an article said:“The September 20 concert at Northwestern State University, Croce's last, was a vivid account of his life. He told the audience of his life as a truck-driver, construction worker, tractor operator and his many nights in playing in dimly-lit dives and staying in cheap motels. His final performance was brilliant. His songs were good, his guitar playing was great and his story telling was fascinating. His voice had a quality that was much better live than on records. Despite his performance, Croce was not called to do an encore.”
I’ve listened to the live recording of his last concert. It was far from being his best one. They both sounded tired, he didn’t tell his stories in their entirety, he rushed out at the end. The crowd was also far from being the best crowd.
I can’t say more than this, because I don’t have any facts to back up anything I would say. I only have a gut feeling that it had a lot to do with what he was going through, and some other people have a slice of that decision. But you can’t prove it and nobody can’t file a wrongful death suit for that…
My last note: I followed your link and read the trial. Cortese’s widow was left to fight to prove it was wrongful death all by herself. The other plaintiff settled.

OK, I'm done, I'll stop here.
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#152 Aug 19, 2010
Was this a factor in the decision he made that night in Natchitoches?

But before I get there, I will skip forward in time for just a few hours. I put together whatever accounts I found on how people felt when they heard about Jim’s death. Joe (I was stunned. The world had turned upside down), Tommy (I was frozen), Steve Angelucci (I was hoping it was a mistake), Patti (life had shifted dramatically, the sun was rising on a very different world for me.), and just people who loved Jim’s music (“I’ve changed that day”,“I was crushed”,“I could not stop crying”– there are many these kind of statements on youtube, after all these years people still remember that day)…and another account you find it in the paragraphs you mentioned in Joe’s Groundless and in “Falling stars…”.(Like I knew it would happen…it was the only way he’d stop). No comment.

Having all these in mind, one is struggling to understand what happened in Natchitoches. Actually many people still try to understand, this thread is a proof.
Was it the pilot, was it the plane, the trees, the black hole? The truth is that none of these would have come into being an issue if Jim didn’t take that faithful decision to fly out that night…at night.
Here I don’t agree with what is said, that he rushed out of Natchitoches because he wanted to be done with touring and meet his wife. It doesn’t make sense. If it was Las Cruses, then I would understand, but why rush out of Natchitoches only to get to Sherman, Texas for another concert? There are just three possibilities:
- He wanted to get out of Natchitoches
- He wanted to get to Sherman sooner (and why Sherman when on the initial schedule was Dallas?)
- Neither of the above, he simply wanted to “get going”

I have no idea. If somebody has any clue…let me know.

But here the information is contradictory as well. Most of the people say that he decided to fly out at the last moment, after the concert. I found an article published in the University’s paper on September 25, 1973 in which is said:“Last stop for Jim Croce: Jim Croce puffed on a little cigar and strummed his guitar as he talked of his recent T.V. appearances, his favorite performers and the tiredness he was feeling after so many one night concert stops. His final interview took place in a football dressing room in Prather Coliseum. "Later tonight we're flying to Sherman, Texas," he replied when asked
about his next engagement.” If this is true, it suggests that he had already planned, before the concert, to fly out of Natchitoches. But it is still a weird decision. I don’t buy into the drug stuff and I don’t think it had anything to do with his decision that night.
About his last concert, an article said:“The September 20 concert at Northwestern State University, Croce's last, was a vivid account of his life. He told the audience of his life as a truck-driver, construction worker, tractor operator and his many nights in playing in dimly-lit dives and staying in cheap motels. His final performance was brilliant. His songs were good, his guitar playing was great and his story telling was fascinating. His voice had a quality that was much better live than on records. Despite his performance, Croce was not called to do an encore.”
I’ve listened to the live recording of his last concert. It was far from being his best one. They both sounded tired, he didn’t tell his stories in their entirety, he rushed out at the end. The crowd was also far from being the best crowd.
I can’t say more than this, because I don’t have any facts to back up anything I would say. I only have a gut feeling that it had a lot to do with what he was going through, and some other people have a slice of that decision. But you can’t prove it and nobody can’t file a wrongful death suit for that…
My last note: I followed your link and read the trial. Cortese’s widow was left to fight to prove it was wrongful death all by herself. The other plaintiff settled.

OK, I'll stop here.
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#153 Aug 19, 2010
Was this a factor in the decision he made that night in Natchitoches?

But before I get there, I will skip forward in time for just a few hours. I put together whatever accounts I found on how people felt when they heard about Jim’s death. Joe (I was stunned. The world had turned upside down), Tommy (I was frozen), Steve Angelucci (I was hoping it was a mistake), Patti (life had shifted dramatically, the sun was rising on a very different world for me.), and just people who loved Jim’s music (“I’ve changed that day”,“I was crushed”,“I could not stop crying”– there are many these kind of statements on youtube, after all these years people still remember that day)…and another account you find in the paragraphs you mentioned in Joe’s Groundless and in “Falling stars…”.(Like I knew it would happen…it was the only way he’d stop). No comment.

Having all these in mind, one is struggling to understand what happened in Natchitoches. Actually many people still try to understand, this thread is a proof.

Was it the pilot, was it the plane, the trees, the black hole? The truth is that none of these would have come into being an issue if Jim didn’t take that faithful decision to fly out that night…at night.
Here I don’t agree with what is said, that he rushed out of Natchitoches because he wanted to be done with touring and meet his wife. It doesn’t make sense. If it was Las Cruses, then I would understand, but why rush out of Natchitoches only to get to Sherman, Texas for another concert? There are just three possibilities:
- He wanted to get out of Natchitoches
- He wanted to get to Sherman sooner (and why Sherman when on the initial schedule was Dallas?)
- Neither of the above, he simply wanted to “get going”

I have no idea. If somebody has any clue…let me know.

But here the information is contradictory as well. Most of the people say that he decided to fly out at the last moment, after the concert. I found an article published in the University’s paper on September 25, 1973 in which is said:
“Last stop for Jim Croce: Jim Croce puffed on a little cigar and strummed his guitar as he talked of his recent T.V. appearances, his favorite performers and the tiredness he was feeling after so many one night concert stops. His final interview took place in a football dressing room in Prather Coliseum. "Later tonight we're flying to Sherman, Texas," he replied when asked about his next engagement.”
If this is true, it suggests that he had already planned, before the concert, to fly out of Natchitoches. But it is still a weird decision. I don’t buy into the drug stuff and I don’t think it had anything to do with his decision that night.

About his last concert, an article said:
“The September 20 concert at Northwestern State University, Croce's last, was a vivid account of his life. He told the audience of his life as a truck-driver, construction worker, tractor operator and his many nights in playing in dimly-lit dives and staying in cheap motels. His final performance was brilliant. His songs were good, his guitar playing was great and his story telling was fascinating. His voice had a quality that was much better live than on records. Despite his performance, Croce was not called to do an encore.”
I’ve listened to the live recording of his last concert. It was far from being his best one. They both sounded tired, he didn’t tell his stories in their entirety, he rushed out at the end. The crowd was also far from being the best crowd.

I can’t say more than this, because I don’t have any facts to back up anything I would say. I only have a gut feeling that it had a lot to do with what he was going through, and some other people have a slice of that decision. But you can’t prove it and nobody can’t file a wrongful death suit for that…

My last note: I followed your link and read the trial. Cortese’s widow was left to fight to prove it was wrongful death all by herself. The other plaintiff settled.

OK, I'll stop here.
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#154 Aug 19, 2010
Is there any way you can delete a comment here?
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#155 Aug 19, 2010
A few of his live concerts including the last one
http://www.guitars101.com/forums/tags.php...
Jawbreaker

United States

#156 Aug 21, 2010
Great information, thanks!!

“PhD Math ”

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#157 Aug 21, 2010
I was there during the last concert. If any of you know about NSU and Natchitoches then you'll remember the restaurant out where highway 1 splits with on going down what used to be the main drag and the other towards the airport/the old cotton seed mill/NSU.

Used to be a trailer park there too. We lived in that park.

After the Concert there was a short period of time right besides Chaplain's Lake where we parked. Getting some more beer out of the ice chest we just sat till some of the cars cleared away.

We had the windows down and heard the plane across the lake at the airport revving up, attempting the takeoff, then the fiery crash.

I did not have a camera but my mind recalls all the sounds and the views.

Next day it was really crazy feelings thinking of how we'd had just seen the concert.

I forget the entertainment guy's name but his first name was "Doug". He was KA I believe and he told us about the crash in the Student Union.

NSU 1969-1973, life sure was fun back then. I worked for Campus Security walking around locking up all the buildings on campus.

I recall finding tons of couples making out in the stairwells but I'd simply say, "student worker locking doors, just go ahead, I'll come back later", then I'd move on.
Jason

Lubbock, TX

#158 Aug 21, 2010
One word...Amazing! Thank you so much for taking your valuable time to craft this awesome and epic response.

Your research and analysis in my opinion are dead on and I agree with everything you said. I can tell that you have taken a lot of time over the years to find the truth. It is the truth we seek.

There are so many lies out there that build this false impression of who he was. Some people just can’t see Jim encapsulated in his music. The hacks that write this stuff are not interested in the truth; they are interested in the “appearance” of the truth. They predicate the false image by taking things out of context, make it what they want, with no thought of human dignity and when they do write something good about Jim it is without mirth.

I read over your reply again and a few things stand out that I want to go a little further with.

First, I did some research on Patti Dahlstrom and found some contradictory character information. But, I believe she is a real go-getter.

They had some later interviews with her and she had some solid answers about life in general and the moral choices we make in life and how that impacts our future.

With her, I believe; “how do you know where she is if you don’t know where she’s been, you know where I am coming from.”

I think she and Jim were starving artists at the same time and shared the same manager in Elliott. I think they had a very deep relationship. That’s not my business and I don’t have any other facts.

But I get the whole song thing, and, I believe I’ll Have To Say I Love You In A Song packs a big punch. Hell you are right about this man. In fact, there is an implied message in that song. As a songwriter, you are also a lyrical poet of sorts. These are just tools of the trade that people who are like this have within their personality, character and skill set. It is just how it is… Was the song worded that way because both Jim and Patti were singer/songwriters and the “in a song” bit was the catch phrase of sorts? Or, was there a message that was being conveyed that could never be spoken. However so, the song hand delivered the message. It would be easy to speculate here on what I think but I don’t have the facts so I won’t, I’m left…just wondering.

Something we have not explored here regarding what “Jim was going through” the “personal turmoil”. I think Jim’s father’s death had some bearing on his demeanor. I recall from the narrative at “The Gathering” with Steve Angelucci (Jim’s Cousin) that when they passed by Jim’s childhood home he claims that Jim and his father had many heated discussions about his musical career. He (Jim’s Dad) used to say don’t be a bum, Jimmy. You're going to be a bum if you’re a music guy.

And then most strikingly, we have the statement by Joe and I quote,“Jim’s father’s skepticism about the feasibility of success in the music business was never allayed because he died while Jim was working on what was to be his first successful album – You Don’t Mess Around With Jim. Had he lived long enough to hear that first hit single, perhaps he would have changed his mind. Jim was to think of this often because his success would always be tempered by the fact that his father didn’t live to see him “make it”. What he had lived to see, however, was the unfortunate release of a Capitol album bearing the name Croce.”– Joe A. Salviuolo
Now, I am not a conspiracy theorist but, you add the death of his father, being on the road or in the studio all the time and away from his wife and child, the evidence of a deep relationship with Patti Dahlstrom and the financial issues with the money that hasn’t come in yet and you got a big deal. That is a lot of crap to deal with

Jason
Jason

Lubbock, TX

#159 Aug 21, 2010
There will be more to come on this. I am in the basement cooking it up now. Watch for updates around Tuesday.

I gotta tell you "Just Wondering" if you are ever in Lubbock TX or If I am ever in Winnipeg, Canada, we need to get together over some coffee or stronger drink and talk about Jim and Maury. Thanks for caring so much about Jim. I didn't know there were people like you out there. I was starting to think I was a one eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater or something.
Jawbreaker

Olive Branch, MS

#160 Aug 22, 2010
I have been a croce fan since age 11 and im now 48. Ive always felt alot stories didnt add up! Ive always tried to find out everything i could about jim and maury in life and their death! I enjoy reading your perspectives on this! I have read some who didnt have a clueabout any of it! Thanks guys great job, im totally blown away over any true information that i can learn!!
Just wondering

Winnipeg, Canada

#161 Aug 24, 2010
@ Jason – I don’t know if I ever am in Lubbock, Texas, but I’d sure like to visit Natchitoches one day, just to see and feel that place.
And if you ever consider visiting Winnipeg, just a word of warning: you’ll either freeze, and if not, the mosquitoes will get you!:)

But I’d sure like to be able to talk freely with another “one eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater”(we could invite Jawbreaker as well, he seems to be one too), because here I can’t say half of everything I have on my mind. I’m sure you two have a lot more on your mind as well, and we could try and put together the puzzle.

Ever noticed how in every forum or thread about Jim people are so very careful with what they say, and they rarely share real information? and I don't think it is because they try not to taint Jim's memory, they are all true fans who love him. It's something else. Just wondering...
I think most of the people are still looking for closure, these two guys made you feel like they were part of your family.

To answer your comments…about Patti, I’ll go with the old saying:“We don’t choose love, love chooses us” and it has nothing to do with a person’s character. I, myself, haven’t read anything bad about her; probably I didn’t dig deep enough. But I’ll be honest to say that my feeling about her is more important than any written word out there. And the fact that she has kept silent about the whole story for 36 years, gives me a good feeling about her and tells me more about her character than any article or interview I would read. Keep in mind she was a struggling artist, widely overlooked and underestimated. To come out with such a story would have attracted attention and she would have probably sold some more of her albums. But she didn’t. She, however spoke through her songs. I have just listened to her “Your place or mine” album, which was released in ’75, two years after Jim’s death, it is a heart wrenching album, with most of the songs talking about her struggle to come to terms with her loss. Besides “Sendin’ my good thoughts to you”, there is “Louisiana”,“Runnin’ out of world”,“Good to be alive”, which are clearly about Jim. There is also “He did me wrong, but he did it right” which pretty much talks about her place in the triangle, and probably the beginning of the “story”. Compared to Jim’s one song, her body of work on this subject is much wider and deeper.

Your observation regarding “I’ll have to say I love you in a song” is just great! Never thought of that, although I should have, because I listened very carefully to all of Jim’s songs and it was not once that I was amazed by his choice of words. Tommy said Jim was a “horseshit” songwriter, but I beg to differ, and probably not too many people realize his power and ability to convey an image, for the very reason that he did it in such a natural way, using simple words, that it is difficult to distinguish the importance of a word or another. He was very good with images and very often used key words to “paint” the image he wanted.

I agree with the father issue you talk about, and it is another weird thing that the “official” biography doesn’t say too much about his family. If I didn’t read Groundless and Steve Angelucci’s interview, I wouldn’t have known anything about his parents and brother, let alone that his father died in ’72. And we are talking about an Italian family, where people are really close to each other, yet the only image one has in mind when it comes to Jim’s family is his wife (and later, his son). Probably his relationship with his family and mostly his father was altered when he decided to convert to Judaism in order to marry a Jewish woman (and his parents didn’t attend the wedding), and I’m thinking that Jim struggled for all the years to come to convince his father that he made the right choice. And the way things developed in both his career and personal life, must have put a big strain on him. His father death made it worse probably.

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