Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#75745 Apr 9, 2013
ORIGINAL WILLARD wrote:
FROM: "The Communist Manifesto"

Section II - Proletarians and communists:

"The average price of wage labor is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer. What, therefore, the wage laborer appropriates by means of his labor merely suffices to prolong and reproduce a bare existence.(We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labor, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labor of others). All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the laborer lives merely to increase capital, and is allowed to live only in so far as the interest of the ruling class requires it.

In bourgeois society, living labor is but a means to increase accumulated labor. In communist society, accumulated labor is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the laborer.

In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in communist society, the present dominates the past. In bourgeois society, capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.

And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.

By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.

It's interesting to note that communism calls for minimum wage subsistence for workers into perpituity! Let's look at that again:

"We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labor, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labor of others."
<<yawning uncontrollably>>

Could you be any more boring? Your wife must cringe at hearing your breath each morning.

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#75746 Apr 9, 2013
Really Sassy wrote:
<quoted text><<yawning uncontrollably>>

Could you be any more boring? Your wife must cringe at hearing your breath each morning.
oops Sorry my darling that wasn't meant for you.

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#75747 Apr 9, 2013
The Original Amused wrote:
<quoted text>You've "did it all," huh? We believe you.
Your wife must cringe at your every breath each morning. You are a bore.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#75748 Apr 9, 2013
Really Sassy wrote:
<quoted text>
oops Sorry my darling that wasn't meant for you.
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Notfromhere

United States

#75749 Apr 9, 2013
rain wrote:
<quoted text> i just resently got on here i like your coments i would like to know what cind of did you do
Jack of all trades and master of none!!!

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#75750 Apr 9, 2013
Nuh_ wrote:
<quoted text>
As a follow-up, in the introduction of the 'Jefferson Bible', there is a letter from Jefferson concerning his faith to Dr. Benjamin Rush - a good friend and also a signer of the Declaration of Independence:
I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other.
This is Jefferson in his own words to a very dear friend.
Simply believing that Jesus was a philosopher whose teachings on morality should be followed does not make one a Christian, does it? Doesn't Christianity require its adherents to profess that Jesus is their Savior and the Divine Son of God?

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75751 Apr 9, 2013
The Original Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Simply believing that Jesus was a philosopher whose teachings on morality should be followed does not make one a Christian, does it? Doesn't Christianity require its adherents to profess that Jesus is their Savior and the Divine Son of God?
I would think most would agree to that - however, the point is that Jefferson stated that he was a Christian, and was a life-long attendant to the Episcopal church. I can no more say he wasn't a Christian, than I can say one who is a Baptist is and one who is a Methodist is not because I do not know the heart of either.

That said, his beliefs were quite unique (and enourmously interesting to study) and he staunchly guarded his private relationship with God...going so far as to never 'tell' his own children or grandchildren what to believe - favoring to allow them to make their own choice, whatever that might be.

Going back to the original post Sassy brought up...at the very heart of Jefferson's idea "Wall of Separation", is the notion that the government will not interfere with people's right to worship God.

Jefferson simply quoted the First Amendment then uses a metaphor, the "wall", to separate the government from interfering with religious practice. Notice that the First Amendment puts Restrictions only on the Government, not the People!

The Warren Court re-interpreted the First Amendment thus putting the restrictions on the People! Today the government can stop you from Praying in school, reading the Bible in school, showing the Ten Commandments in school, or have religious displays at Christmas. This is quite different from the wall Jefferson envisioned, protecting the people from government interference with Religious practice.

As I posted earlier, Jefferson attended a church service 3-days after writing the 'wall of separation' letter...at the U.S. Capitol on government property. His actions showed his intent.
Cornbread

Scottsville, KY

#75752 Apr 9, 2013
Not so.

Jefferson's religion was closer to the beliefs of Deists.

In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete. For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that "God" can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me..."

Jefferson aimed at laissez-faire liberalism in the name of individual freedom, He felt that any form of government control, not only of religion, but of individual mercantilism consisted of tyranny. He thought that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry.

If anything can clear of the misconceptions of Jeffersonian history, it can come best from the author himself. Although Jefferson had a complex view of religion, too vast for this presentation, the following quotes provide a glimpse of how Thomas Jefferson viewed the corruptions of Christianity and religion.
Cornbread

Scottsville, KY

#75753 Apr 9, 2013
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute inquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Read more of Jefferson words on religion here:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#75754 Apr 9, 2013
You beat me to it, Cornbread. Kudos.

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75755 Apr 9, 2013
The fact remains Jefferson called himself a Christian; attended worship with Christians; said he was, "sincerely attached to his (Jesus Christ's) doctrines"; and not only read the Gospels - but painstakingly went through them not once, but twice.
"During the first winter, Mr. Jefferson regularly attended service on the sabbath-day in the humble church. The congregation seldom exceeded 50 or 60, but generally consisted of about a score of hearers. He could have had no motive for this regular attendance, but that of respect for public worship, choice of place or preacher he had not, as this, with the exception of a little Catholic chapel was the only church in the new city. The custom of preaching in the Hall of Representatives had not then been attempted, though after it was established Mr. Jefferson during his whole administration, was a most regular attendant. The seat he chose the first sabbath, and the adjoining one, which his private secretary occupied, were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him and his secretary."
Margaret Bayard Smith, in her memoir "The First Forty Years of Washington Society"

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75756 Apr 9, 2013
The Original Amused wrote:
You beat me to it, Cornbread. Kudos.
A great cut & paste job at that too
Cornbread

Scottsville, KY

#75758 Apr 9, 2013
Cut and Paste who cares.
I posted Jefferson's own words. It would be ridiculous of me to argue the point with out proof.It would also be stupid of me to claim Jefferson's words as my own.

It is fact, and it is best to present the facts, as opposed to conjecture don't you think?
I also included a link to my facts.
Where is your link proving that he called himself a christian Nuh?

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75759 Apr 9, 2013
"I too have made a wee little book, from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus. it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. a more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen. it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian..."

Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816

Now, this is twice I've posted where Jefferson called himself a Christian...yet, it is suggested that I and others 'rewrite history'.

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75762 Apr 9, 2013
"these accounts are to be settled only with Him who made us; and to him we leave it, with charity for all others, of whom also He is the only rightful and competent judge. I have little doubt that the whole of our country will soon be rallied to the Unity of the Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also."

-Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Timothy Pickering, February 27, 1821

This is a very interesting subject, you can read more:

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-c...
Dunlapian

Dunlap, TN

#75763 Apr 9, 2013
Nuh_ wrote:
<quoted text>
A great cut & paste job at that too
Just wait for the night shift(Willard and Company) to respond!

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75764 Apr 9, 2013
Cornbread wrote:
Cut and Paste who cares.
I posted Jefferson's own words. It would be ridiculous of me to argue the point with out proof.It would also be stupid of me to claim Jefferson's words as my own.
It is fact, and it is best to present the facts, as opposed to conjecture don't you think?
I also included a link to my facts.
Where is your link proving that he called himself a christian Nuh?
I just posted one - and the other is in a previous post concerning the "Jefferson Bible" and Jefferson's letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush.

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75765 Apr 9, 2013
Dunlapian wrote:
<quoted text>Just wait for the night shift(Willard and Company) to respond!
Nah, the nightshift "discussions" don't appeal to me that much!

Since: Feb 13

Guild

#75766 Apr 9, 2013
From what I've read, it appears that Jefferson considered himself a Christian - but did not particularly like how clergy had muddled up the Gospel of Christ; and - more importantly - he didn't feel that his own religious belief was anybody's business except his and God's.
Cornbread

Scottsville, KY

#75767 Apr 9, 2013
Interestingly this is the first few paragraphs from your link.

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-c...

Thomas Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion. He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."[1] In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.[2] Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

With the help of Richard Price, a Unitarian minister in London, and Joseph Priestly, an English scientist-clergyman who emigrated to America in 1794, Jefferson eventually arrived at some positive assertions of his private religion. His ideas are nowhere better expressed than in his compilations of extracts from the New Testament "The Philosophy of Jesus" (1804) and "The Life and Morals of Jesus" (1819-20?). The former stems from his concern with the problem of maintaining social harmony in a republican nation. The latter is a multilingual collection of verses that was a product of his private search for religious truth. Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian[3], but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles Ely, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

- Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Report, August 1997


BTW this was copied and pasted.

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