If one religion's tradition is public...

If one religion's tradition is publicly recognized

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Johnny Appleseed

United States

#1 Dec 8, 2012
I just heard and saw on TV the Jewish yearly traditional celebration,"Happy Hanukkah" recognized and I felt discriminated against as a Christian who's traditional celebration greeting of "Merry Christmas" isn't given the same recognition by government, TV, or by Businesses but is announced in generic terms, as Happy Holidays. If Happy Holidays is the proper recognition of the Christian's special time of the year shouldn't Happy Holidays be the proper recognition for the Jewish special holiday of Hanukkah so as not to offend those who aren't Jewish.
This is a nation of mamy different religions, we shouldn't offend those who aren't of those religions which are publicly recognized, also if one religion's special holidays are recognized publicly it gives the appearence that that religion is the offical religion of the State...
... aren't we constantly admonished that we must never breach the wall separating Church and State.if this policy is paracticed by government against one religion, it should be practiced against all religions,wouldn't that be fair...
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#2 Dec 9, 2012
Johnny Appleseed wrote:
I just heard and saw on TV the Jewish yearly traditional celebration,"Happy Hanukkah" recognized and I felt discriminated against as a Christian who's traditional celebration greeting of "Merry Christmas" isn't given the same recognition by government, TV, or by Businesses but is announced in generic terms, as Happy Holidays. If Happy Holidays is the proper recognition of the Christian's special time of the year shouldn't Happy Holidays be the proper recognition for the Jewish special holiday of Hanukkah so as not to offend those who aren't Jewish.
This is a nation of mamy different religions, we shouldn't offend those who aren't of those religions which are publicly recognized, also if one religion's special holidays are recognized publicly it gives the appearence that that religion is the offical religion of the State...
... aren't we constantly admonished that we must never breach the wall separating Church and State.if this policy is paracticed by government against one religion, it should be practiced against all religions,wouldn't that be fair...
I let this sit overnight to come up with an appropriate response. I came up with two:

Merry Christmas, Johnny!

John 10:22-23 (KJV)

"And it was at Jerusalem the Feast of the Dedication, and it was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade."

The Feast of the Dedication translated into Hebrew is Chanukah.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#3 Dec 9, 2012
So, the story goes like this:

A new King came into power and decided to change things. He decided that all people in his kingdom must adopt his religion. He came up with scriptures for his religion and said that all people must adopt his scriptures and give up their own. Religious freedom ended.

A group of people living in the kingdom did not like this idea. They wanted to worship as they wished. They wanted to use their own scriptures. They decided to not obey the King. They came up with a plan. Many people died carrying out the plan. In the end, the people were successful. They gained religious freedom. At the end of their struggle, they held a feast to thank G-d for their successes.

In 1621, the feast was the first Thanksgiving. The King was James I. The scripture that he adopted was the King James Version. The people were the Pilgrims.

In 165 BCE, the feast was the first Chanukah. The King was Antiochus IV. The scriptures that he forbade was the Tanakh (Old Testament). The people were the Maccabees.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#4 Dec 9, 2012
Now this is interesting. Our village has a CHRISTMAS tree! A public recognition of CHRISTMAS by a governmental body. Wow!

"Oswego Lights Village Christmas Tree

During the annual Christmas walk on Dec. 7, the festivities kicked off with the lighting of the village Christmas tree."

http://oswego.patch.com/articles/oswego-light...
Johnny Appleseed

Melrose Park, IL

#5 Dec 9, 2012
Eric wrote:
So, the story goes like this:
A new King came into power and decided to change things. He decided that all people in his kingdom must adopt his religion. He came up with scriptures for his religion and said that all people must adopt his scriptures and give up their own. Religious freedom ended.
Part number 2...

"In the 1970's the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)" Jewish lawyers association..." was initially successful in removing nativity scenes from public property. "Christmas was a holiday long before the formation of this country. Christmas is a national holiday: Federal mployees get Christmas Day off, and no one claims this to be an establishment of religion.(Not yet.)Every year, Christmas comes under more intense attack by politically correct troublemakers. There seems to be no objection (from the left) to Kwanzaa, Hannukah, Ramadan, or the pagan celebration of the winter solstice, but the leftists say Christmas has got to go."

"Political correctness demands that we keep from offending those who don't celebrate Christmas. In some cases this might mean recent immigrants, but it usually means people of other religions, or no religion.
Pay attention to the press coverage of this issue and you'll see that the "offended" individuals almost never object on their own — they get legal help from organizations like the ACLU. It is a tiny minority of troublemakers, maybe one person out of a thousand, who wants all references to religion removed from public property, but unfortunately these are the people who are sought out by the news media."
"...."Nobody is more self-righteous than an atheist, at any time of year."

"Thinly disguised war on Christianity thrives. In this self-congratulatory age of multiculturalism and hyper-tolerance, what religion other than Christianity is treated as inherently offensive? In fact, haven't our cultural high priests instructed that we dare not find other religions offensive, but must even enthusiastically embrace them for contributing to our diversity of ideas and values? Of course they have, but that admonition — as all but the most inattentive recognize — doesn't apply to Christianity, as this year's annual war on Christmas demonstrates once again."

" The malcontents are suffering from historical amnesia: they don't seem to recognize that most of our secular values from compassion to the preciousness of human life are the distinctive legacy of Christianity."
"if you're with the ACLU or a committed leftist, your list of risks to America"...."include s: the Boy Scouts, the Pledge of Allegiance, and now Christmas. To the ALCU and to the left, Christmas trees, carols and nativity scenes are dangerous instrumentalities that threaten America's foundation."

The people of Asia were slaves, because they had not learned how to pronounce the word 'no'.- Winston Churchill (citing Alexander the Great), in a radio address - 10/16/1938
Christians need to say,"NO," enough of silently sitting by while the ACLU/Jewish Lawyers Association and other leftist/ Athiests,etc,trash our Christian religion and its traditions in America.
If tolerance is to be shown for all religions let it begin in this country with tolerance for the Christian religion and its traditions that our founding fathers thought so important to the welfare of America and its people.
Johnny Appleseed

Melrose Park, IL

#6 Dec 9, 2012
Eric wrote:
So, the story goes like this:
A new King came into power and decided to change things. He decided that all people in his kingdom must adopt his religion. He came up with scriptures for his religion and said that all people must adopt his scriptures and give up their own. Religious freedom ended.
A group of people living in the kingdom did not like this idea. They wanted to worship as they wished. They wanted to use their own scriptures. They decided to not obey the King. They came up with a plan. Many people died carrying out the plan. In the end, the people were successful. They gained religious freedom. At the end of their struggle, they held a feast to thank G-d for their successes.
Part number 1 of reply to Eric...12-08-2012...

A interesting story, to be sure but it doesn't address the subjects of my post dealing with such matters as why non- Jews shouldn't be offended by the Jewish greeting, "Happy Hanukkah" given in public when the Christian's traditional greetings at Christmas time is "Merry Christmas" and is censored and turned into the generic greeting,"Happy Holidays."If this is a proper greeting to replace the Christian's Merry Christmas, isn't it also proper to instead of wishing"Happy Hanukkah," to also replace the public greeting,Happy Hanukkah, with,"Happy Holidays" for the Jewish Holiday greeting as well.
you would attempt to convience people that the Christian religion hasn't been singled out and under attack here in this country by such leftist groups as the ACLU/ Jewish lawyers association,communists/Atheist s for years now but there is undeniable evidence that the attacks are pernicious and ment to silence the Christians and their traditions in this country.
These attacks done under the guise of religious tolerance and supposedly done so as not to offend people of other religions but when Christian traditions are censored and denied their rightful display in the public arena it offends those of us who are of the Christian faith.
Even the traditional "Christmas tree" isn't safe from Leftist/liberal attacks
Gov. Lincoln Chafee said that he calls the evergreen tree in the PROVIDENCE,Rhode Island State House a “ holiday” tree and not a “Christmas” tree ...

Gov. Lincoln Chafee's lame excuse for his liberal/leftist attack on a Christian tradition was that,"....the previous governor called it a holiday's tree," said Chafee.
"If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.”— Anatole ..

Nativity scenes on public property and religious Christmas carols in the public schools are rapidly disappearing from American culture. The loss of religious consensus and the "separation of church and state" myth have contributed toward the demise of America's Christian heritage.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#7 Dec 9, 2012
Well, Johnny, I listened to our village president speak at the lighting of the village CHRISTMAS tree that was paid for by village tax dollars and decorated by village officials. Didn't seem to be a problem with him saying Merry Christmas at all. Didn't see any decorations on VILLAGE PROPERTY for any other holiday of the season. Just for CHRISTMAS.

I was out today looking around in our village. Didn't see one Happy Chanukah sign. Didn't see one Chanukah decoration. I did see a lot of CHRISTMAS decorations though.

When I was downtown last week in the loop at the Daley Center, there was a nativity scene on PUBLIC PROPERTY. The Supreme Court says that's ok so long as other people can put up their displays too. Laws change. Nativity scenes can be put up. But, the problem is that the people who put up the Nativity scenes don't want others to put up their displays next to them. They don't want to share the holiday season with others. So, like you, they complain that they can't put up their decorations--which is not true. They are afraid that someone will put up a display that they don't agree with and that will ruin their holiday. So they don't put up their displays and then complain about it.

So, Johnny, again, Merry Christmas. Kick back and enjoy your holiday. Ours will be over next week and you won't have to share with anyone else.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#8 Dec 9, 2012
So, Johnny, you saw someone on the TV wishing others a Happy Chanukah and it disturbed you? Did you notice all of the special Christmas programming on TV this year. There are even channels playing nothing but Christmas programs thru the 25th.

You didn't notice any Chanukah programming I bet. I did a search on my satellite system and there are only 2 Chanukah programs this year. NBC is offering it's classic "Lambchops Chanukah" and Disney is showing it's repeat of "Full Court Miracle". That's it. 250 channels. 2 programs.

And, you are complaining about someone on the first night of the holiday wishing those who observe it a Happy Chanukah? Are you telling me that the same station won't be wishing others a Merry Christmas on December 24th and 25th? How much do you want to bet that they will?

You know how we got into this mess, don't you? It was people like you who didn't like others openly celebrating their holidays. They got sued because they wouldn't allow other people to put up displays next to their Nativity scenes. And, it has been a problem since. I guess your mama didn't teach you to share.

Once people got their arms around the problem, there wasn't a problem anymore. The Supreme Court says you can have your Nativity scene on public property. It can't be paid for by tax dollars, but a private person can pay for it. You just have to allow others to put up their displays adjacent to your Nativity scene. But, that is not acceptable to people like you.

The US Department of Education put out a pamphlet on seasonal celebrations. The schools can sing whatever they want--so long as they offer other songs of the season. I was at a school on Thursday for a concert and they sang some extremely religious Christmas songs. Silent Night. Joy to the World. Three Kings. A Child is Born. But they also sang Light one Candle.

So, Johnny, Merry Christmas. Why don't you enjoy the season and stop being Scrooge?
Johnny Appleseed

Melrose Park, IL

#9 Dec 9, 2012
Eric wrote:
Well, Johnny, I listened to our village president speak at the lighting of the village CHRISTMAS tree that was paid for by village tax dollars and decorated by village officials. Didn't seem to be a problem with him saying Merry Christmas at all. Didn't see any decorations on VILLAGE PROPERTY for any other holiday of the season. Just for CHRISTMAS.
I was out today looking around in our village. Didn't see one Happy Chanukah sign. Didn't see one Chanukah decoration. I did see a lot of CHRISTMAS decorations though.
When I was downtown last week in the loop at the Daley Center, there was a nativity scene on PUBLIC PROPERTY. The Supreme Court says that's ok so long as other people can put up their displays too. Laws change. Nativity scenes can be put up. But, the problem is that the people who put up the Nativity scenes don't want others to put up their displays next to them. They don't want to share the holiday season with others. So, like you, they complain that they can't put up their decorations--which is not true. They are afraid that someone will put up a display that they don't agree with and that will ruin their holiday. So they don't put up their displays and then complain about it.
So, Johnny, again, Merry Christmas. Kick back and enjoy your holiday. Ours will be over next week and you won't have to share with anyone else.
You replied,"Nativity scenes can be put up. But, the problem is that the people who put up the Nativity scenes don't want others to put up their displays next to them." Some one else putting up a display next to a Nativity scene sounds innocent enough doesn't it but what would you say if some anti- jewish group bought the property next to your church and put up a sign on their property right next to your church that had insulting remarks and scenes on it reflecting badly on the celebration of Chanukah and about the Jewish race in general, would the Jewish church members object as they rightly should.
If a group puts up a display next to a Nativity scene that insults Christians and their traditions, they too have a right to object to that as well as the Jewish Church members would.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#10 Dec 9, 2012
Johnny Appleseed wrote:
<quoted text>You replied,"Nativity scenes can be put up. But, the problem is that the people who put up the Nativity scenes don't want others to put up their displays next to them." Some one else putting up a display next to a Nativity scene sounds innocent enough doesn't it but what would you say if some anti- jewish group bought the property next to your church and put up a sign on their property right next to your church that had insulting remarks and scenes on it reflecting badly on the celebration of Chanukah and about the Jewish race in general, would the Jewish church members object as they rightly should.
If a group puts up a display next to a Nativity scene that insults Christians and their traditions, they too have a right to object to that as well as the Jewish Church members would.
But, blocking all adjoining displays--on public property--because you are afraid that you MIGHT not like the message is a prior restraint on constitutionally protected speech. Are you telling me that once a Nativity scene goes up on public property you want to forbid all other displays adjacent thereto because of what might be said. How is that constitutional?

What you are saying is that you want to own the season. You only want Christmas displays. People of other religions and who have other celebrations during the season are not to be able to put up adjacent displays.

This mindset of yours is how we got into this mess. Those who celebrate Christmas cannot block the free speech rights of those who don't. That is why you got sued by the ACLU. It's not because you put up a nativity. It's because you didn't want to allow adjacent non-Christmas displays. The Supreme Court said you can't block other's free speech rights. You get your Nativity scene, but I get my Menorah also.
Chinkie

Hinsdale, IL

#11 Dec 10, 2012
WWJD?
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#12 Dec 10, 2012
Chinkie wrote:
WWJD?
John 10:22-23 (KJV)

"And it was at Jerusalem the Feast of the Dedication, and it was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade."
Johnny Appleseed

United States

#13 Dec 10, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
You Posted,"That is why you got sued by the ACLU. It's not because you put up a nativity. It's because you didn't want to allow adjacent non-Christmas displays. You are not as naive as you would have everyone believe, you understand perfectly well why placing a insulting disrespectful display, in words or images, intended to denigrate a Christian nativity scene is objectionable. You don't have to be a Christian to be able to grasp the idea that a picture of Jesus satnding in a container of urine is offensive and is intended to be insulting to Christians even though the artist claimed it was art.
You don't have to be English to understand that it would be offensive to go to England, for instance and say to an Englishman, "Screw the Queen" or put up a sign in the park in England that shows a picture of the Queen and under the picture, the words, "Have you seen this whore. America is a land predominently Christian,"These ethists and others who insult the Christian traditions and symbols aren't interested in protecting or exercising their right to free speech, They aren't of the Christian faith or maybe they are atheists,or of another religion and like the dog in the manger which doesn't eat the straw there, wishes to foul the straw for those who do favor it. Freedom of speech doesn't give anyone the right to intentionally offend or insult others. If you wish and expect your religion to be respected you can not defend those who go out of their way to offend others.
If people wish to defend their religious principles and traditions against those who believe differently than they do they have the right to convince others in a public forum debate or they can write books promoting their religion, that is their right to exercise their rights to freedom of speech, they don't have the right in a civil society to insult or offend those who think differently than they do.
You replied,"Nativity scenes can be put up. But, the problem is that the people who put up the Nativity scenes don't want others to put up their displays next to them." I previously posted,"Some one else putting up a display next to a Nativity scene sounds innocent enough doesn't it but what would you say if some anti- jewish group bought the property next to your church and put up a sign on their property right next to your church that had insulting remarks and scenes on it reflecting badly on the celebration of Chanukah and about the Jewish race in general, would the Jewish church members object as they rightly should. Do you stand up for this This anti-Jewish group's right to free expression, free speech.. Answer this, if you don't it means that you agree to the idea of free speech, but not for everyone... not for everyone, just for those who agree with you.I get the feeling that the reason that you find favor with those who insult the Christian Traditions and symbols as you have distain for Christians and their traditions, ie, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." isn't this the gist of it.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#14 Dec 11, 2012
Johnny Appleseed wrote:
<quoted text>You Posted,"That is why you got sued by the ACLU. It's not because you put up a nativity. It's because you didn't want to allow adjacent non-Christmas displays. You are not as naive as you would have everyone believe, you understand perfectly well why placing a insulting disrespectful display, in words or images, intended to denigrate a Christian nativity scene is objectionable. You don't have to be a Christian to be able to grasp the idea that a picture of Jesus satnding in a container of urine is offensive and is intended to be insulting to Christians even though the artist claimed it was art.
You don't have to be English to understand that it would be offensive to go to England, for instance and say to an Englishman, "Screw the Queen" or put up a sign in the park in England that shows a picture of the Queen and under the picture, the words, "Have you seen this whore. America is a land predominently Christian,"These ethists and others who insult the Christian traditions and symbols aren't interested in protecting or exercising their right to free speech, They aren't of the Christian faith or maybe they are atheists,or of another religion and like the dog in the manger which doesn't eat the straw there, wishes to foul the straw for those who do favor it. Freedom of speech doesn't give anyone the right to intentionally offend or insult others. If you wish and expect your religion to be respected you can not defend those who go out of their way to offend others.
If people wish to defend their religious principles and traditions against those who believe differently than they do they have the right to convince others in a public forum debate or they can write books promoting their religion, that is their right to exercise their rights to freedom of speech, they don't have the right in a civil society to insult or offend those who think differently than they do.
So because you are afraid that someone MIGHT insult your religion, you want to block all other exercise of free speech in the public milieu during the December multi-holiday season. That is called prior restraint. Prior restraint is unconstitutional. What of the people--like me--who just want to celebrate my own traditions in public? Just because you fear that an "atheist" might put up something that you don't like doesn't mean that you should be able to block ALL other displays of the season. You want the December multi-holiday season all to yourself. That's un-American.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#15 Dec 11, 2012
Johnny Appleseed wrote:
<quoted text>You replied,"Nativity scenes can be put up. But, the problem is that the people who put up the Nativity scenes don't want others to put up their displays next to them." I previously posted,"Some one else putting up a display next to a Nativity scene sounds innocent enough doesn't it but what would you say if some anti- jewish group bought the property next to your church and put up a sign on their property right next to your church that had insulting remarks and scenes on it reflecting badly on the celebration of Chanukah and about the Jewish race in general, would the Jewish church members object as they rightly should. Do you stand up for this This anti-Jewish group's right to free expression, free speech.. Answer this, if you don't it means that you agree to the idea of free speech, but not for everyone... not for everyone, just for those who agree with you.I get the feeling that the reason that you find favor with those who insult the Christian Traditions and symbols as you have distain for Christians and their traditions, ie, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." isn't this the gist of it.
Time for a history lesson. In 1977 the Nazis announced that they were going to march thru Skokie; i.e. the new "Jew Town" as Jessie Jackson would say. The Village of Skokie tried to stop them. But "the ACLU/ Jewish lawyers association" defended the Nazis in court because the principles of free speech were more important than not offending others. The Nazis won. That was the correct decision. The Jews still live in Skokie. The Nazis are long gone. The Constitution is still strong.

And we are not talking about putting up displays and counter displays on private property. We are talking about public property. You can put up anything you want on your church property. Your neighbors can put up anything they want on their property.

We are talking about public property. The courts have said that if one religious display is allow; all religious displays are allowed. You need to make a choice. Let them all be there; or none.

So, go down to village hall and see the CHRISTMAS tree. It's there all by itself. Go on-line and watch the video of the lighting ceremony and listen to President LeClerq wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas, Johnny!
Johnny Appleseed

Melrose Park, IL

#16 Dec 12, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
John 10:22-23 (KJV)
"And it was at Jerusalem the Feast of the Dedication, and it was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade."
Jesus said,“When you pray, do not be like the 'hypocrites,' for they love
to pray standing in the synagogues and ... So he made a whip out of cords and
drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers....'Do not be as one with the Hypocrites who "pray standing in the synagogues" to appear pious but go about doing the devils work against the Christians at Christmas and throughout the year.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#17 Dec 12, 2012
Jesus also said:

1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

2“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

4“Or how can you say to your brother,‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?

5“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Johnny Appleseed

Melrose Park, IL

#18 Dec 12, 2012
Eric wrote:
Jesus also said:
1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4“Or how can you say to your brother,‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
"Let Him Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone"
"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."
"...When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it...."
8:45 "....And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not....." 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."You know whats wrong with allowing a anti-Christian display next to a Christian display, but it doesn't suit your purpose to admit it.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#19 Dec 12, 2012
Johnny Appleseed wrote:
<quoted text>You know whats wrong with allowing a anti-Christian display next to a Christian display, but it doesn't suit your purpose to admit it.
The problem is that because you are afraid of allowing an anti-Christian display next to your Christian display you want to ban all other displays. To ban all other displays is an unconstitutional prior restraint.

What is wrong with allowing a dreidl? Is that anti-Christian to you? What is wrong with allowing a Diwali lamp? Is that anti-Christian?

You have a choice. All or none. You would rather say none and then complain that you are being deprived. But, it's not so. You have chosen to give up your freedom rather than share the season with others because you are afraid to be offended. Get some beitzim. Toughen you skin. Grow a backbone. Know that your beliefs are not so fragile that a sign will suddenly make you a non-believer. Know that the truths you believe in will not perish because some as-hole puts up a negative sign. If anything, it will make you stronger.
Eric

Sugar Grove, IL

#20 Dec 12, 2012
Oh, I forgot.

Merry Christmas, Johnny!

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