Common ground--safety net

Common ground--safety net

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Since: Aug 11

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#1 Feb 20, 2013
I want to try something a bit different with this thread.

Lets play around, see if we can actually come up with ideas we all agree upon.

We are not as far apart as our leaders wish we were, polls show that over and over. So lets just see how this rolls out.
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Many of us complain about professional moochers on programs, etc, but even the most hard core libertarian among us would never condone a society that allows people do without the basic necessities of life. Libertarians (like me) are not cold bastards, its just we think individuals do better than governments.
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So, I want to ask everyone in this thread to play nice. Just lay out what you think should be done, how broad and thick that safety net should be, and ways to do it better than our government does it today.

Frankly, I think a handful on here should be in Congress, they are smart, and passionate, and brutally honest.

Since: Aug 11

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#2 Feb 20, 2013
None of us would ever want children to go hungry, so lets start there.

What program would you want to make sure kids have all they need to eat?

How would you make sure no child (lets just leave it at kids for now)goes hungry?
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Myself, I would expand something that already works, the school lunch program. Make it 7 days a week 365 days a year, any hungry child can walk in and get a good meal.

How do we pay for this?

The money the current administration has given to Syrian rebels the last year alone is enough to make sure every child in this nation can have a free school lunch every day for the next TEN YEARS.

So I say, cut foreign aid enough to pay for feeding centers for children, run out of the schools. Any hungry child can go to a school building at any time and enjoy a nutritious, filling meal.

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Your thoughts, feelings, ideas? And try to keep it focused just on the kids, just on food.

Since: Aug 11

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#3 Feb 20, 2013
"When a community does something together, that community is very happy, jovial, connected, and unified."

--Larry P. Aitken, CHIPPEWA
fa ra ra ra

Nashville, TN

#4 Feb 20, 2013
Can you show the rough math to your figure?

Children < 16 years of age = 65,470,033
Children < 18 years of age = 74,181,467

Rough Humanitarian aid to Syrian Rebels -$385 million.

385 Million / 75 million = 5.13

How do you stretch a shrinking (pop growth)$5.12 per child one time payment over 10 years?

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#5 Feb 20, 2013
fa ra ra ra wrote:
Can you show the rough math to your figure?
Children < 16 years of age = 65,470,033
Children < 18 years of age = 74,181,467
Rough Humanitarian aid to Syrian Rebels -$385 million.
385 Million / 75 million = 5.13
How do you stretch a shrinking (pop growth)$5.12 per child one time payment over 10 years?
Uh oh, now you done it. Don't you know that math has an inherent liberal spin? Don't you know that any attempts to use it can only be attributed to a desire to push a liberal agenda?

Forget this "math" thing you were indoctrinated with in the liberal indoctrination centers that pass for "schools" these days. Nothing good can come from it, and algebra in particular came from the Muzzies, so you know it is just part of their plot to take over the world and force everyone to live under Sharia law.

Be afraid, very afraid. Of math. Most posters on this site are, and you should be too.

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#6 Feb 20, 2013
SpiritoftheHawk wrote:
None of us would ever want children to go hungry, so lets start there.
What program would you want to make sure kids have all they need to eat?
How would you make sure no child (lets just leave it at kids for now)goes hungry?
Well, I would make birth control mandatory for those parents who need assistance to get their children fed, something implantable or injectable so they can't "forget". I know that is a little after the fact, but that is where I would start.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#7 Feb 20, 2013
fa ra ra ra wrote:
Can you show the rough math to your figure?
Children < 16 years of age = 65,470,033
Children < 18 years of age = 74,181,467
Rough Humanitarian aid to Syrian Rebels -$385 million.
385 Million / 75 million = 5.13
How do you stretch a shrinking (pop growth)$5.12 per child one time payment over 10 years?
My estimat was 50 million kids total, with less than that being in school when i first saw that number...

And I guess we only give foregin aid one time

But you know what, forget it,

This was not about nazi crap or anything, it was a chance for everyone to throw ideas out there....

I asked, how would you make sure no child goes without food.

I chose schools because...well, they have kitchen and enough room for each kid in the community.

But I am starting to think you all do not know how to fix one thing, nor do you care to...

You only wish to attack otehrs and complain about crap rather than trying to work together to solve some of our serious societal problems.

No wonder our country is dying....PATHETIC...

Do YOU have any ideas? Any suggestion on how to make sure ther are no hungry kids around? Since their parents may waste money we give?

I would rather a private charity do this, but the schools provide an infrastructure already...

Yeah, my math was wrong, I went on a rough estimate and screwed it up..guess what I will OWN it...not try to weasel out of my error.

So geniuses....any ideas? or just more complaining?

God you all are hopeless
Number One Fan

Murray, KY

#8 Feb 20, 2013
SpiritoftheHawk wrote:
<quoted text>
My estimat was 50 million kids total, with less than that being in school when i first saw that number...
And I guess we only give foregin aid one time
But you know what, forget it,
This was not about nazi crap or anything, it was a chance for everyone to throw ideas out there....
I asked, how would you make sure no child goes without food.
I chose schools because...well, they have kitchen and enough room for each kid in the community.
But I am starting to think you all do not know how to fix one thing, nor do you care to...
You only wish to attack otehrs and complain about crap rather than trying to work together to solve some of our serious societal problems.
No wonder our country is dying....PATHETIC...
Do YOU have any ideas? Any suggestion on how to make sure ther are no hungry kids around? Since their parents may waste money we give?
I would rather a private charity do this, but the schools provide an infrastructure already...
Yeah, my math was wrong, I went on a rough estimate and screwed it up..guess what I will OWN it...not try to weasel out of my error.
So geniuses....any ideas? or just more complaining?
God you all are hopeless


Just speak for Indy AKA AKT

I'm doing fine!
fa ra ra ra

Nashville, TN

#9 Feb 20, 2013
Can you clarify how not answering the question is owning it?

instead you seemed to climb up on a cross pretty quick.

There was nothing in my post that was antagonistic. I brought my figures to the table to demonstrate why I could not picture your idea being feasible.

Churches typically have a facility that could feed the kids, why should you automatically jump into this being a state issue? I ask because your self proclaimed libertarianism. The government already has multiple programs in place to ensure that kids are fed. If your only defense is "infrastructure" then I would seriously question the libertarian ethos, because we seem to be at the limit of the good will of others.

There we go- Allow churches to retain their tax exempt status so long as they show a good faith effort in aiding a community? Make local good deeds chic, instead of mission trips to impoverished countries with bibles.

With those social programs in place, I tend to agree with the population control idea, as far as suggesting ideas. Instead of trying to back door isolationist policies into the discussion, why not change what is in place?

reduce incentive to have kids, increase availability/ possibly incentivize long term contraceptives. Bury abstinence only sex ed in the dark ages, and embrace the fact that teenagers have sex. Speak openly about sexual procreation- its a part of life, not a taboo. Mandatory contraceptives is too harsh for me and rubs my civil liberties the wrong way. I would be curious to see the results of such policies, but I don't claim they are a silver bullet to a multifaceted problem.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#10 Feb 20, 2013
I made a mistake, I am owning it.

How often does anyone do that on topix?
libertarian Lizzie

Henderson, KY

#12 Feb 20, 2013
How about allowing churches and other charities to do the work of feeding children? The "free lunch" teaches them that food is free.
Let me ask you, when, in all of the history of humankind was food viewed as "free"? It is only within the past two or three centuries that all humans, adult and children alike spend a goodly portion of their day working for food.
I sincerely believe that if there are really hungry children in our region, it is the fault of the parent, not my fault. I haven't seen any malnourished children in our area. A goodly portion of them appear to me to need to miss a few meals to save us some money in future medical bills. All those obese children are going to turn into obese adults with diabetes, arthritis, high blood pressure and heart disease.
Now I'm a great believer in personal freedom and personal responsibility.
Before the passage of ObamaCare, I had only my personal family's health to concern me because I was financially responsible for my health care only. If you wanted to be an obese person, it was your business but if I'm going to be obligated to pay your health bills because you make poor choices in feeding yourself and your children, I'm going to expect you to take at least commonsense measures to keep yourself healthy.

My suggestion would be to cut all Federal food programs to schools and let those programs be handled on a local basis. Why send money to DC to be devalued and have it sent back via one Federal program or another?
I'm having a bit of a problem with your characterization of yourself as a libertarian while your suggested solution is just switching around Federal money. You don't get freedom and personal responsibility by sending more money to the government. Ways and means must be found to begin the task of dismantling major portions of the Federal government and returning freedom and responsibility to the state/local levels. Having a bunch of bureaucrats in some federal office write the guidelines for programs in western Kentucky just doesn't make sense. Neither does having to send our tax dollars to DC, paying a lot of friends of politicians to redistribute our dollars to their friends in the states. Those state bureaucrats take their percentage of the money and if there is any left, they might parcel it out to the counties.
So how about we cut out the money-grubbing federal and state bureaucrats and just send most of our tax money to locals. I know for a fact that our county government can write, pass and live within a budget, something the politicians in Frankfort and Washington have yet to do. Those yahoos in the distant cities can get by with not doing their jobs and still taking a paycheck. How long do you think that would work on a local level?
While we might take issue with the contents of the budget, the mere fact that they still feel the need to actually earn their checks puts them head and shoulders above the ones deciding our fate in Frankfort and DC.
On the local level, to combat hunger in our society is to teach others to grow healthy food and consume it in celebration of life. We can help to provide habitats for growing food. We can share our knowledge, our seeds, our labor and our money---on the local level. We can buy our food locally to support the people working hard to feed us.
It is said, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a meal. Teach a man to fish and he will feed his family." It's the same with growing food, a learned behavior, allowing plants to grow.
Personal and community gardens and food co-ops, that's how I would address hunger in our society. It's about personal freedom and responsibility. Food production is WORK. Children should understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch.
I didn't have to be taught this, I knew it from spending hot summer days hoeing the garden that would feed me during the winter months ahead.

Just sayin'

Benton, KY

#13 Feb 20, 2013
SpiritoftheHawk wrote:
I made a mistake, I am owning it.

How often does anyone do that on topix?
Rarely...if EVER! Kudos to you!

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#14 Feb 20, 2013
DO children go to bed hungry?

If you agree, then do you agree this is wrong?

If this is wrong, do we fix it?

If we should fix it, then how?

We havea food stamp program, but since children still go to bed hungry, then this program fails.

Since this program fails what are the alternatives?

Giving more money or food stamps will not solve the issue, since doing the same thing will only enlarge something that fails.

What are the alternatives then?
Population control is indeed a GREAT idea, I have often thought that there should be an incentive to not have kids if on assistance...idk what that is though...

However, population control does nothing for the kids that are going to bed hungry tonight.

Can charitable programs fix the problem? yes, but at this point, they do not.

So, I think the best way to avoid fraud is to directly feed any child that asks.

What is cheapest way to do that? Well, to avoid building or buying a place to feed them, use something already there....what in the community has the largest cafeterias and food service places used to making bulk meals? Usually schools.

So, perhaps a federal block grant to a community based group that can handle this service.

This is how my logic brought me there.

I apologize very much for being grumpy...I woke and had a bad headache and admittedly my loincloth got in a twist, so I apologize.

I just get frustrated when i see everyone complaining, but not doing anything about the problems. Rather, people leave it all up to washington, who fails us miserably, don't you agree?

I know children that do indeed go to bed hungry, and there is not much I can do about it, other than send leftovers from our meals to them (which we do, my girlfriend takes them to this lady at their work)...

I talk here on Murray Topix because people here have passion and intelligence, and wanted to see if just on ONE issue, we could agree and come together...throw out some hypothetical ideas and maybe all agree....but I woke to more negative crap all over these boards.

As you know, I am in poor health,,,and I desperately want things changed for my kids before I am gone...

While I am physically impotent....that does not feel as bad as seeing something like an abused or hungry child and not being able to do a damn thing...and the country that I love only growing farther apart when the power to fix it is here...

But instead of seeing people agree to help hungry kids, maybe some good groupthink and make things work, I see garbage about less kids...can we not even come together to feed children???? And we wonder why our leaders fail us.

Again, I apologize for my tantrum, but with each day, my panic grows...

I humbly ask your forgiveness.
Many Blessings
libertarian Lizzie

Henderson, KY

#15 Feb 20, 2013
Oh, and just a final note---on the teaching a man to fish---gardens are superior to fishing because the government expects you to buy a license to fish. Gardens, so far, have escaped such taxation. Let's keep it that way.
fa ra ra ra

Nashville, TN

#16 Feb 20, 2013
SpiritoftheHawk wrote:
I made a mistake, I am owning it.
How often does anyone do that on topix?
How often do you expect a parade for doing something right?

Your claim to owning a mistake is buried in a sea of diva attitude.

The idea of an olive branch among individuals of different ideologies is not a mistake. Just handle questions with a bit more conviction man, that's all I am saying.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#17 Feb 20, 2013
i just want us to unite, rather than keep pulling apart, and i thought on a topic about hungry kids...we could find common ground...

but as i see it, our culture has 10-20 years before a "Mad Max" survival of fittest collapse

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#18 Feb 20, 2013
libertarian Lizzie wrote:
Oh, and just a final note---on the teaching a man to fish---gardens are superior to fishing because the government expects you to buy a license to fish. Gardens, so far, have escaped such taxation. Let's keep it that way.
as i said in my opening post, I would think that on hungry American Children even the staunchest libertarian would have to say, "Something has to be done."

If a child is hungry because they have a crappy parent, do we just say "oh well?" I for one, cannot. If one will stand to protect an unborn child against their evil parent..then one MUST stand to make sure that kid at least has food.

And my suggested use of federal money was just to show that we are blowing money on Syrians who will hate us in the long run....

smh...

we are doomed
fa ra ra ra

Nashville, TN

#19 Feb 20, 2013
SpiritoftheHawk wrote:
DO children go to bed hungry?
If you agree, then do you agree this is wrong?
If this is wrong, do we fix it?
If we should fix it, then how?
We havea food stamp program, but since children still go to bed hungry, then this program fails.
Since this program fails what are the alternatives?
Giving more money or food stamps will not solve the issue, since doing the same thing will only enlarge something that fails.
What are the alternatives then?
Population control is indeed a GREAT idea, I have often thought that there should be an incentive to not have kids if on assistance...idk what that is though...
However, population control does nothing for the kids that are going to bed hungry tonight.
Can charitable programs fix the problem? yes, but at this point, they do not.
So, I think the best way to avoid fraud is to directly feed any child that asks.
What is cheapest way to do that? Well, to avoid building or buying a place to feed them, use something already there....what in the community has the largest cafeterias and food service places used to making bulk meals? Usually schools.
So, perhaps a federal block grant to a community based group that can handle this service.
This is how my logic brought me there.
I apologize very much for being grumpy...I woke and had a bad headache and admittedly my loincloth got in a twist, so I apologize.
I just get frustrated when i see everyone complaining, but not doing anything about the problems. Rather, people leave it all up to washington, who fails us miserably, don't you agree?
I know children that do indeed go to bed hungry, and there is not much I can do about it, other than send leftovers from our meals to them (which we do, my girlfriend takes them to this lady at their work)...
I talk here on Murray Topix because people here have passion and intelligence, and wanted to see if just on ONE issue, we could agree and come together...throw out some hypothetical ideas and maybe all agree....but I woke to more negative crap all over these boards.
As you know, I am in poor health,,,and I desperately want things changed for my kids before I am gone...
While I am physically impotent....that does not feel as bad as seeing something like an abused or hungry child and not being able to do a damn thing...and the country that I love only growing farther apart when the power to fix it is here...
But instead of seeing people agree to help hungry kids, maybe some good groupthink and make things work, I see garbage about less kids...can we not even come together to feed children???? And we wonder why our leaders fail us.
Again, I apologize for my tantrum, but with each day, my panic grows...
I humbly ask your forgiveness.
Many Blessings
Your premise is that these programs are a failure if a child goes to bed hungry- There is no way to guarantee 100% success in these programs, not even with your school lunch program. What if a family is out in the county and can not / will not take their children to the school on a saturday? The child will be hungry, ergo the program is a failure. Short of a gestapo nutrition police that goes to every house every day, it won't happen.

It's a travesty if a child goes to bed hungry, but at some point we reach diminishing returns. IF you are aware of such a family that is so incapable of providing for their children then, admittedly sadly, you are ethically obligated to report the guardians for neglect. With all the aid that is available, it is truly neglect on the parents part. At least then the children will have their meals.

And my two cents, at least so far in this topic you read more libertarian socialist than what is hailed as a libertarian now a days.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#20 Feb 20, 2013
fa ra ra ra wrote:
<quoted text>
Your premise is that these programs are a failure if a child goes to bed hungry- There is no way to guarantee 100% success in these programs, not even with your school lunch program. What if a family is out in the county and can not / will not take their children to the school on a saturday? The child will be hungry, ergo the program is a failure. Short of a gestapo nutrition police that goes to every house every day, it won't happen.
It's a travesty if a child goes to bed hungry, but at some point we reach diminishing returns. IF you are aware of such a family that is so incapable of providing for their children then, admittedly sadly, you are ethically obligated to report the guardians for neglect. With all the aid that is available, it is truly neglect on the parents part. At least then the children will have their meals.
And my two cents, at least so far in this topic you read more libertarian socialist than what is hailed as a libertarian now a days.
i guess I am a libertarian socialist. I am an American Indian...I was raised where the whole community came together and helped each other so no one did without. Not because you had to, but because you wanted to.

I just wish we as a community of Americans could come together better, you understand? Washington will not and cannot fix anything. If anything gets fixed it will be by people that can civilly disagree, and meet in the middle.

I will be honest, and risk sounding like a nut job...

I have visions, as many of my people do...

In one, I saw a "time without bread"...when we will not be able to buy food at a restaurant or store. Now my children know how to grow crops, find edible roots, hunt, etc. For them I really do not worry.

But as a human being, I cannot help but worry for my fellow man.

The answer in this time will be to come together as a community, and all I see is people coming apart.

Washington politicians are the enemy, a poison that pulls us apart.
fa ra ra ra

Nashville, TN

#21 Feb 21, 2013
SpiritoftheHawk wrote:
<quoted text>
i guess I am a libertarian socialist. I am an American Indian...I was raised where the whole community came together and helped each other so no one did without. Not because you had to, but because you wanted to.
I just wish we as a community of Americans could come together better, you understand? Washington will not and cannot fix anything. If anything gets fixed it will be by people that can civilly disagree, and meet in the middle.
I will be honest, and risk sounding like a nut job...
I have visions, as many of my people do...
In one, I saw a "time without bread"...when we will not be able to buy food at a restaurant or store. Now my children know how to grow crops, find edible roots, hunt, etc. For them I really do not worry.
But as a human being, I cannot help but worry for my fellow man.
The answer in this time will be to come together as a community, and all I see is people coming apart.
Washington politicians are the enemy, a poison that pulls us apart.
A co-op program between MSU and the local high schools for vertical farming. The food grown is supplemented into the local schools pantries.
This would be problematic though, because I believe most of the cooks are not familiar with preparing meals from scratch. At least not in regards to their jobs. A lot of meals are prepackaged to the schools.

Fresh grown food spoils, so excess can be sold to the community. Make prices competitive to local stores due to less over head. Reinvest profits to scholarships for students who contribute to the program to make it even more appealing for those interested.

If you wanted to get pretty intricate do aquaponics so fresh fish can also be raised/sold.

This program should not be privatized, as I feel it diminishes the potential benefit to the community.

See This Ted lecture for an idea of what I am getting at.



Also see Jamie Oliver's TED lecture/Documentary on what schools face while trying to shift away from status quo.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jamie_oliver.html

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