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Since: Aug 10

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#45 Sep 2, 2012
sinner wrote:
<quoted text>the bible states do not add or take anything out or i;ll take your part out of the book of life?let him who reads understand.
You know that was how they copyrighted back then don't you? John did not want anyone to alter the vision he received so he included that as a curse to anyone that altered it.
There was no Bible then so it only applied to the vision that was later named Revelation.
In fact, it was the first thing John wrote. His other books came later. When the Bible was canonized, they put the book of Revelation at the end because it was about the second coming.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#46 Sep 2, 2012
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
You know that was how they copyrighted back then don't you? John did not want anyone to alter the vision he received so he included that as a curse to anyone that altered it.
There was no Bible then so it only applied to the vision that was later named Revelation.
In fact, it was the first thing John wrote. His other books came later. When the Bible was canonized, they put the book of Revelation at the end because it was about the second coming.
See, this is why I argue with you. Your statement is patently idiotic, yet you state it as fact. The vast majority of Biblical scholars (and I do mean vast) do not believe that any actual apostle wrote any actual book in the bible. It is believed that the apostles (if one assumes they existed at all) were mostly or entirely illiterate, as were something like 95% of all people, with a much higher percentage unable to craft something as verbose as the gospels. The gospels and other writings attributed to the apostles were generally written in the 6th and 7th centuries AD by fairly well educated Greek speaking/writing members of the church. I can't fathom why one would state otherwise, unless they have the misguided need to prove the words in the Bible with "fact".

That's fine if you want to believe those writings as the written word of God, entirely in faith. But if you're going to act like there is any evidence that the apostles themselves wrote those words, you're going to lose your argument.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#47 Sep 2, 2012
*decades, not centuries

Since: Aug 10

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#48 Sep 3, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>See, this is why I argue with you. Your statement is patently idiotic, yet you state it as fact. The vast majority of Biblical scholars (and I do mean vast) do not believe that any actual apostle wrote any actual book in the bible. It is believed that the apostles (if one assumes they existed at all) were mostly or entirely illiterate, as were something like 95% of all people, with a much higher percentage unable to craft something as verbose as the gospels. The gospels and other writings attributed to the apostles were generally written in the 6th and 7th centuries AD by fairly well educated Greek speaking/writing members of the church. I can't fathom why one would state otherwise, unless they have the misguided need to prove the words in the Bible with "fact".

That's fine if you want to believe those writings as the written word of God, entirely in faith. But if you're going to act like there is any evidence that the apostles themselves wrote those words, you're going to lose your argument.
I don't come here to argue, unlike you. I enjoy discussing matters of faith. I don't enjoy bashing with others or being belittled by someone who thinks they know it all. No one knows who wrote what back then. That is true. It can only be assumed that who actually penned any parts of the Old Testament either took fragments and abridged them together, or took verbal passed down recollections from people who listened to the Apostles tell their stories. No one knows for sure. Even scholars are speculating to some degree. It is just easier to say John wrote Revelations because it reads as it were from John. It is generally assumed to be as accurate as possible from sources that heard the recollection. Who knows if it was firsthand or third. Very similar to how we have the Old Testament.
My whole point of that post (which you missed) was that the curse that was threatened at the end of Revelations only applies to the vision, not the cannon of the Bible.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#49 Sep 3, 2012
No, I didn't miss any point. If you mean one thing, stop saying another. "John" didn't write anything in the Bible, this is not debatable given what we know, and it makes no sense to claim otherwise. My problem came with you stating emphatically that he "wrote" things, and that's what I responded to.

Since: Aug 10

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#50 Sep 4, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
No, I didn't miss any point. If you mean one thing, stop saying another. "John" didn't write anything in the Bible, this is not debatable given what we know, and it makes no sense to claim otherwise. My problem came with you stating emphatically that he "wrote" things, and that's what I responded to.
Great. Do you know who penned the final book? Or where the information came from?

To everyone that isn't Ummm, just wanted to make sure you knew that the curse at the end that warns not to add or take away from the book, refers to the book of Revelations. Most Christians believe this means no more revelations can be given. This is incorrect. We should never try to limit or cease God's prerogative to speak with man. The scriptures say that before the second coming of Christ there must be a restitution of all things. Among those things would be revelation through a prophet to prepare for Christ's return.
THE TRUTH

Harrison, AR

#51 Sep 4, 2012
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>Great. Do you know who penned the final book? Or where the information came from?

To everyone that isn't Ummm, just wanted to make sure you knew that the curse at the end that warns not to add or take away from the book, refers to the book of Revelations. Most Christians believe this means no more revelations can be given. This is incorrect. We should never try to limit or cease God's prerogative to speak with man. The scriptures say that before the second coming of Christ there must be a restitution of all things. Among those things would be revelation through a prophet to prepare for Christ's return.
get well soon

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#52 Sep 4, 2012
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Great. Do you know who penned the final book? Or where the information came from?
No and yes. But in order to refute you, I do not need to know who wrote it. Only who did not.
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
We should never try to limit or cease God's prerogative to speak with man.
It is amazing to me that humans will make excuses for an all powerful creator. As if we could even slightly bend the will or intent of such a being. If God wants people to hear something, we have no choice. If the actions of one person can in any conceivable way prevent a message from God from reaching another person, and the intended recipient is then judged for not hearing it, it seems to me that the failure lies not in the people.

Since: Aug 10

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#53 Sep 5, 2012
THE TRUTH wrote:
<quoted text>get well soon
Hahaha. Thanks

Since: Aug 10

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#54 Sep 5, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>No and yes. But in order to refute you, I do not need to know who wrote it. Only who did not.
do whut wrote, "<quoted text>
We should never try to limit or cease God's prerogative to speak with man."

It is amazing to me that humans will make excuses for an all powerful creator. As if we could even slightly bend the will or intent of such a being. If God wants people to hear something, we have no choice. If the actions of one person can in any conceivable way prevent a message from God from reaching another person, and the intended recipient is then judged for not hearing it, it seems to me that the failure lies not in the people.
I didn't say we could prevent God from speaking with man. But just as the countless examples in the Bible, God speaks to a man He has ordained a prophet, and the rest of the world doubts that the man has truly spoken to God so they do not heed the message given.
Those that believe that there can be no more scripture, will certainly not be looking for further revelation through a prophet in this day and age.

As for who wrote the book, I wasn't asking for you to refute me. I was really asking if you knew. I've never seen a widespread agreement. Must everything be a battle with you?

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#55 Sep 5, 2012
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
As for who wrote the book, I wasn't asking for you to refute me. I was really asking if you knew. I've never seen a widespread agreement. Must everything be a battle with you?
That was not a real question unless you honestly thought I might know. I find it hard to believe that you thought that.

Anyway, yes, there is no agreement because there is no real history. Much of civilization at that point could almost be called "tribal". And the history of that area, if something didn't have a reason to be recorded by the Jewish church or the Romans, it was probably only passed by word of mouth for many years. As were the texts being discussed

Since: Aug 10

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#56 Sep 6, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>That was not a real question unless you honestly thought I might know. I find it hard to believe that you thought that.

Anyway, yes, there is no agreement because there is no real history. Much of civilization at that point could almost be called "tribal". And the history of that area, if something didn't have a reason to be recorded by the Jewish church or the Romans, it was probably only passed by word of mouth for many years. As were the texts being discussed
There were notable historians back then (like Josephus for example). I thought maybe you knew of more sources with more information. Geez you even question motifs when asked a question. You have issues.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#57 Sep 6, 2012
I think you mean motive and I assume that was a typo (I do it all the time), but that's a dodge. Also, ad hominem is awesome.

Did you or did you not think I could KNOW exactly who wrote the book referenced. I said I didn't think you thought that, and it therefore wasn't a question.

I do know of Josephus, and he would be a prime example of the people I was talking about recording history (at least for events that occurred during his professional life). But anything on the topic at hand recorded by that specific person would have, again, first passed by word of mouth before he recorded it.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#59 Sep 6, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
I think you mean motive and I assume that was a typo (I do it all the time), but that's a dodge. Also, ad hominem is awesome.

Did you or did you not think I could KNOW exactly who wrote the book referenced. I said I didn't think you thought that, and it therefore wasn't a question.

I do know of Josephus, and he would be a prime example of the people I was talking about recording history (at least for events that occurred during his professional life). But anything on the topic at hand recorded by that specific person would have, again, first passed by word of mouth before he recorded it.
It as been years since I researched this particular subject. Just wondering if more had surfaced that I wasn't aware of.

Yes I meant motive. After 2 times of my iPhone correcting it to "notice", I gave up and took motif. Sorry
ruready

Mount Vernon, KY

#60 Oct 2, 2012
I am glad that you two read your Bibles.... apparently you do,as both of you seem very knowledgeable....that's a start....now start living it!

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