You are so sick
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Just sayin

Chaplin, KY

#1 Aug 25, 2012
If I had throat cancer, I would be worried about where my soul was going when I died. Ask forgiveness and get involved in a good church while you still have time. If you think the cancer is gone, don't kid yourself. It always comes back.
ME OH MY OH

Murray, KY

#2 Aug 25, 2012
IF YOU REALLY BELIEVED IN GOD AND WERE A TRUE CHRISTIAN THEN YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THAT HE CAN HEAL!!!!!!! Think twice about what you just said! MY GOODNESS I CANT BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID WHAT YOU DID! AND HERE YOU TRY TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE TO GO TO CHURCH??????????

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#3 Aug 25, 2012
ME OH MY OH wrote:
IF YOU REALLY BELIEVED IN GOD AND WERE A TRUE CHRISTIAN THEN YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THAT HE CAN HEAL!!!!!!! Think twice about what you just said! MY GOODNESS I CANT BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID WHAT YOU DID! AND HERE YOU TRY TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE TO GO TO CHURCH??????????
Oncologists can treat some cancers and your body has natural defenses against cancer that can be slightly boosted through behavioral/dietary changes. That is the extent of ANY "healing" that occurs.

If you're gonna get all "god heals through prayer", you let me know how many prayers for healing have been answered from soldiers that have lost limbs defending you. Does god have the power to give them back their legs? Or, like I have gathered, does the "power" of prayer coincidentally stop at the exact same point as the power of modern medicine in EVERY single case that you will be able to find?

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#4 Aug 25, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>Oncologists can treat some cancers and your body has natural defenses against cancer that can be slightly boosted through behavioral/dietary changes. That is the extent of ANY "healing" that occurs.

If you're gonna get all "god heals through prayer", you let me know how many prayers for healing have been answered from soldiers that have lost limbs defending you. Does god have the power to give them back their legs? Or, like I have gathered, does the "power" of prayer coincidentally stop at the exact same point as the power of modern medicine in EVERY single case that you will be able to find?
Just because you don't believe prayer can work, doesn't mean you are right. It just means you haven't experienced/witnessed it.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#5 Aug 25, 2012
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
It just means you haven't experienced/witnessed it.
What are you talking about? Neither have you.

Name a single time that anyone has prayed for anything that could not have simply happened by random chance (through normal, observable physical processes, etc.) or the effort of an individual (given only ability and technology already available to them) and it ACTUALLY happened.

Hint: you cannot. It has never been witnessed by a single person living today. Nobody who has lost an eye, kidney, leg, finger, or any other body part has ever prayed to have it back and actually received anything. I guess God has simply never wanted any of those people to have these things back, right? Riiiiight. God never wants people to have anything they pray for if it can't already be obtained through earthly, non-supernatural means, apparently. So prayer does what, exactly?
Seriously

Manchester, KY

#6 Aug 25, 2012
ME OH MY OH wrote:
IF YOU REALLY BELIEVED IN GOD AND WERE A TRUE CHRISTIAN THEN YOU WOULD ALREADY KNOW THAT HE CAN HEAL!!!!!!! Think twice about what you just said! MY GOODNESS I CANT BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID WHAT YOU DID! AND HERE YOU TRY TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE TO GO TO CHURCH??????????
Why do you feel the need to comment on a post that obviously was not meant for you? Don't be so presumptuous with your statement that "if you were a true Christian". Only the poster and the person the post was intended for will understand.
Just so U know

Murray, KY

#7 Aug 25, 2012
Seriously wrote:
<quoted text>Why do you feel the need to comment on a post that obviously was not meant for you? Don't be so presumptuous with your statement that "if you were a true Christian". Only the poster and the person the post was intended for will understand.
If so, then a phone call would have been more appropriate.

“"No Sleep, 'til Brooklyn!"”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#8 Aug 25, 2012
Actually, if the person being prayed for is aware of said act, and is open to it of course, then prayer just might work to an extent. As a result of that person's mind of course.

On another note, who is to say that it cannot work? Just because something hasn't been proven, does not mean it is not so. There is a chance that one day, it could be proven true, or completely false for that matter.

Just sayin'.....

:-D

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#9 Aug 25, 2012
I cannot agree in the slightest. Here is why.
The Bible wrote:
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Ask, and it will be given to you seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another,that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
There is no ambiguity in any of these statements; no room for misinterpretation. There is nothing but words stating that the prayers of the faithful WILL be answered.

So, again I'll go with the easiest example I can think of to demonstrate why I disagree that prayer does anything.

There are many soldiers throughout our country's history that have lost limbs in the process of defending us. I have read many accounts of prayer following their losses. You are always hearing about how "prayer got rid of my cancer/herpes/cold/whatever inconvenient medical condition a given person has that they pray for relief of", yet not a single soldier has ever gotten their leg or genitals back after the explosion rips them apart. Why is it that god is only curing everyone's cancer or colds or whatever else prayer is given credit for? Why not the soldiers?

There are exactly two possible answers:
1. God has the power to grant any prayer, but here has never been a righteous/faithful soldier (or one with other righteous/faithful people to pray for them) that lost a limb.
2. Prayer does nothing, and since there is no way that modern medicine can restore destroyed limbs, these soldiers continue to suffer.

In order to believe the first, you have to have complete faith that the words in the Bible that I quoted above are indeed correct and infallible, and that it is the lack of faith and righteousness of the soldiers (and the people who care for them) that is continuing their terrible condition and preventing their prayers from being answered.

In order to believe the second, you have to have a brain and apply it.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#10 Aug 26, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>What are you talking about? Neither have you.

Name a single time that anyone has prayed for anything that could not have simply happened by random chance (through normal, observable physical processes, etc.) or the effort of an individual (given only ability and technology already available to them) and it ACTUALLY happened.

Hint: you cannot. It has never been witnessed by a single person living today. Nobody who has lost an eye, kidney, leg, finger, or any other body part has ever prayed to have it back and actually received anything. I guess God has simply never wanted any of those people to have these things back, right? Riiiiight. God never wants people to have anything they pray for if it can't already be obtained through earthly, non-supernatural means, apparently. So prayer does what, exactly?
It depends on what you pray for. It has to be God's will, not yours. I have never prayed for a limb to be reattached, so I cannot speak for that. I would assume that if I lost a finger on a table saw, that would be a consequence that I would have to live with and learn a lesson from it. I have no experience there.
But I have had prayers answered before, in different ways. One in particular was answered by a thought popping into my head. I had asked what I should do in a particular situation. The thought that came to me was not even in common words that I would normally use. I felt a warmth come over me and I knew the answer was from the Holy Ghost. I obeyed and my life was spared. I would have been killed if I had done what I planned to do.
Another instance was when I prayed for a loved one to overcome cancer. This was their second bout with cancer that had surfaced in a different location. The doctors said it was terminal. I fasted and prayed and felt that it would be gone. Her energy seemed to increase over a week's time and the next doctor visit showed no cancer anywhere. Today, several years later, she is still cancer free.

You can tell me these are coincidences if you wish, but the presence of the Holy Ghost that I felt along with these occurrences was unmistakably not from myself. The interesting thing about faith is that you cannot hand it to someone else. You can only experience it for yourself.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#11 Aug 26, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
<quoted text>I cannot agree in the slightest. Here is why.

There is no ambiguity in any of these statements; no room for misinterpretation. There is nothing but words stating that the prayers of the faithful WILL be answered.

So, again I'll go with the easiest example I can think of to demonstrate why I disagree that prayer does anything.

There are many soldiers throughout our country's history that have lost limbs in the process of defending us. I have read many accounts of prayer following their losses. You are always hearing about how "prayer got rid of my cancer/herpes/cold/whatever inconvenient medical condition a given person has that they pray for relief of", yet not a single soldier has ever gotten their leg or genitals back after the explosion rips them apart. Why is it that god is only curing everyone's cancer or colds or whatever else prayer is given credit for? Why not the soldiers?

There are exactly two possible answers:
1. God has the power to grant any prayer, but here has never been a righteous/faithful soldier (or one with other righteous/faithful people to pray for them) that lost a limb.
2. Prayer does nothing, and since there is no way that modern medicine can restore destroyed limbs, these soldiers continue to suffer.

In order to believe the first, you have to have complete faith that the words in the Bible that I quoted above are indeed correct and infallible, and that it is the lack of faith and righteousness of the soldiers (and the people who care for them) that is continuing their terrible condition and preventing their prayers from being answered.

In order to believe the second, you have to have a brain and apply it.
I do know a father that holds the priesthood of God, that his toddler son had his ear ripped off in a fall down the stairs. His father panicked and took his son in a dark closet. He said he was crying and praying frantically in the name of Jesus Christ that his son would be ok. Over the course of a few minutes, his son stopped screaming and began to pay his dad on the head trying to figure out what was wrong with him. When the dad opened the closet door to let light in, the child's ear was fine. He had no open wound or even a scar. The dad kept his blood stained shirt, unwashed in his closet as a reminder of this miraculous prayer answered.

Faith is a choice. I choose to believe in the power of Jesus Christ and His Father's priesthood power.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#12 Aug 26, 2012
No, you are just doing nothing but dodging my question and tossing the old "God's will" rationalization for unanswered prayers. That is NOT what scripture says. I just quoted it.

It doesn't say "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith. And oh yeah, if it is God's will too."

And your second story... really? Lots of witnesses. Sounds entirely credible.

Go back to my example. Explain how my thinking is wrong given any real evidence you can find. Don't dodge it, give me examples of what modern medicine is fully capable of doing on its own, insert your interpretation of what those completely unambiguous passages might possibly mean if they don't make sense when taken literally, or come up with some crazy story with no witnesses about a guy that threw his kid with a ripped off ear in a closet it got all better.
scott

London, KY

#13 Aug 26, 2012
Well i say pop the top on another. The alcohol will ward off all the bad spirits.lol Its pop a top again.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#14 Aug 26, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
No, you are just doing nothing but dodging my question and tossing the old "God's will" rationalization for unanswered prayers. That is NOT what scripture says. I just quoted it.

It doesn't say "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith. And oh yeah, if it is God's will too."

And your second story... really? Lots of witnesses. Sounds entirely credible.

Go back to my example. Explain how my thinking is wrong given any real evidence you can find. Don't dodge it, give me examples of what modern medicine is fully capable of doing on its own, insert your interpretation of what those completely unambiguous passages might possibly mean if they don't make sense when taken literally, or come up with some crazy story with no witnesses about a guy that threw his kid with a ripped off ear in a closet it got all better.
Faith waivers, even with the strongest of believers. The scripture says whatever is asked in faith. Remember Peter, the strongest Apostle? He had faith that he could walk on water, and he did, until his mind started racing and then his faith wavered. If there is any doubt that God cannot or will not perform a righteous task that is asked of Him, we cannot say if it would come to pass or not. We do not know. I mention righteous, because we know that if we were to ask God to do something that contradicts His own commandments, it usually will not be answered as we wish.
Remember the other Apostles that went out and tried to heal, but didn't really think they could do it? They doubted themselves, or the priesthood authority which they held. The we're not able to heal because of it.

As for my example, this was not some crazy story that I heard about. I actually knew the person. He showed me the blood on the carpet in the closet and on his shirt. His son knows he got hurt, but doesn't really remember what happened.

As I said before, faith isn't something I can hand you. If you truly want to know, humble yourself before God and ask, with full faith that He will answer. I guarantee you that if you do this, you will receive an answer through the Holy Ghost. That is His main purpose is to testify of our Father in Heaven, His Son Jesus Christ, and of all truth.

Honestly, you are just wasting your time if you try any other way.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#15 Aug 26, 2012
So I take it you chose:
1. God has the power to grant any prayer, but here has never been a righteous/faithful soldier (or one with other righteous/faithful people to pray for them) that lost a limb.

Or at least that's all that I can gather from your posts.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#16 Aug 26, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
So I take it you chose:
1. God has the power to grant any prayer, but here has never been a righteous/faithful soldier (or one with other righteous/faithful people to pray for them) that lost a limb.

Or at least that's all that I can gather from your posts.
I don't have to choose 1 or 2.
In your 1 answer, if you take out the parenthesis, it reads: "but here has never been a righteous/faithful soldier that lost a limb."

Did you mean to add, "that prayed for it to be reattached?"

Assuming you did, other factors come in to play: how many of the righteous prayed for such a miracle, how many tried surgery, how many decided this was a new trial for them and did not attempt prayer, or surgery for this issue? There is no 1 or 2 for this occurrence. That's why no one is answering you.

If you are just making a general example, I will give you a general answer that may fit 90% of Christians. Most faithful Christians fully believe that God has the power to perform such miracles, but most believe they are not worthy of such a miracle so they doubt it would come true for them. Hence the example of Peter sinking after successfully walking on water.

Does this help?

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#17 Aug 26, 2012
No, it doesn't help. Why would you making excuses help anything?

Let me explain again the issue at hand, since my extremely simplified exampled is apparently not logical enough for those who base all of their beliefs on things that are entirely illogical:

Every shred of real evidence in the world indicates that nobody, and I mean not one single person, has ever prayed for something that is not obtainable through human action or the natural course of variables already in motion prior to prayer and ever received it. That's not to say that things don't happen sometimes that are consistent with what some random person prays for and are heralded by the faithful as miracles from God/answered prayer. Of course that happens, and you are evidence of it.

The problem is that the remaining 99% of the time, when things don't go the way the faithful had hoped and prayed for, there is always the "not the will of God" excuse. Nobody ever points back to scripture and says "Well, that doesn't seem to make sense now." They would rather put the blame on people, as if they weren't faithful or righteous enough. I've had plenty enough personal experience on this front to realize that is nothing but repressive and psychologically damaging BS.

Please, again, explain to me how I am in any way incorrect and how prayer has ever done anything for anyone that wasn't 100% possible prior to prayer.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#18 Aug 26, 2012
_Ummm_ wrote:
No, it doesn't help. Why would you making excuses help anything?

Let me explain again the issue at hand, since my extremely simplified exampled is apparently not logical enough for those who base all of their beliefs on things that are entirely illogical:

Every shred of real evidence in the world indicates that nobody, and I mean not one single person, has ever prayed for something that is not obtainable through human action or the natural course of variables already in motion prior to prayer and ever received it. That's not to say that things don't happen sometimes that are consistent with what some random person prays for and are heralded by the faithful as miracles from God/answered prayer. Of course that happens, and you are evidence of it.

The problem is that the remaining 99% of the time, when things don't go the way the faithful had hoped and prayed for, there is always the "not the will of God" excuse. Nobody ever points back to scripture and says "Well, that doesn't seem to make sense now." They would rather put the blame on people, as if they weren't faithful or righteous enough. I've had plenty enough personal experience on this front to realize that is nothing but repressive and psychologically damaging BS.

Please, again, explain to me how I am in any way incorrect and how prayer has ever done anything for anyone that wasn't 100% possible prior to prayer.
I disagree with you with the example I've already given you with my friend and his son. Tell me how that could have happened on its own. You simply doubt because it defies your logic and you didn't see it yourself. If you were to witness it, you would most likely be among those that witnessed Christ perform miracles and then claim He was a magician or possessed with devils. This is why faith is necessary. We were sent to earth with 2 purposes: 1 to receive a mortal body that we will be reunited with in the resurrection. 2 to have our faith in Him tested. You have completed 1. Think deeply before you dismiss number 2.

The best example I can give you is when Jesus Christ, the only perfect man to walk the earth, prayed to His Father that He not have to endure the sins of all, and the agonizing death and torture that He knew was coming. Yet He knew it was the will of God that He complete His mission.
Jesus being holier than any that ever walked the earth, did not have His prayer answered, because it was not God's will. Yet Jesus was humble and righteous enough to accept that God's will was more important.

Regardless of what you think is logical or not, God's will is important. If it weren't God's will, you wouldn't be on earth today questioning Him and His plan for you. I'm sure He just hopes you learn something beyond yourself and your limited mental capacity. You cannot understand God completely. No one can. Humble yourself and realize that your creator exceeds your logic.

“pervinco per logica”

Since: Feb 12

Eradicate willful ignorance.

#19 Aug 26, 2012
Your friend and his son is not a valid example, and I don't have to tell you how this could have happened because I DO NOT believe that it happened. If things like this REALLY happened, do you not think that atheism would be eliminated throughout the world? A lack of evidence is the problem for these people, and evidence would remove that problem.

And where do you get off acting like I'm some irrational moron that would make excuses for my set-in-stone belief system (magician? demons?) in light of ample evidence to the contrary? Do you not realize how backwards and hypocritical that is for you to even imply that? To clarify, I would never deny any event that I was witness to that confirmed anything that I do not believe in simply because it is not something that I believe in. No logical person would.

You are continually off topic here. I don't care what you think our purpose in being on earth is. I am well aware of what the Bible says, so I don't need you to tell me Bible stories. If you aren't going to actually address the question (provide proof that prayer has ever done anything for anyone), then why are you wasting your time?

Also, you may want to reevaluate your understanding of the nature of God. He is infallible. He is omniscient and omnipotent. He does not sit around "hoping" for me to do or learn something. He knows everything I will ever do or know. I have no free choice in the matter. He knows if and for how long I will be without faith. He knows if I will pray or not, for what, and whether it will be granted. He knows whether I will be redeemed or condemned. And he knows all of this before I was born. And likewise he has the power to do ANYTHING, not just things that are already possible in 2012 through non-supernatural means.
Matrix

Jamestown, KY

#20 Aug 26, 2012
Lisa Marie Merrell wrote:
Actually, if the person being prayed for is aware of said act, and is open to it of course, then prayer just might work to an extent. As a result of that person's mind of course.
On another note, who is to say that it cannot work? Just because something hasn't been proven, does not mean it is not so. There is a chance that one day, it could be proven true, or completely false for that matter.
Just sayin'.....
:-D
actual studies show a positive correlation between prayer and physical improvement ONLY if you don't tell the person being prayed for if you tell them, they get worse, so if you are praying for a sick friend don't tell them just do it! of course, if ya really don't like them its vice versa!

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