Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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65,541 - 65,560 of 68,986 Comments Last updated 1 hr ago

Since: Jan 14

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#72409 Apr 24, 2014
"I will behave with you in so and so way and hope you reciprocate" -

Having EXPECTATIONS where human relationships are concerned is a form of CHEAP BARGAINING and a sign of an inferior mind at work....
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#72410 Apr 24, 2014
It's a sign of great immaturity to have EXPECTATIONS in terms of reciprocity of behavior when dealing with other people. EXPECTATION - "I will behave with you in so and so way and hope you reciprocate" - is a form of CHEAP BARGAINING..

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72411 Apr 24, 2014
MOSES said: "Love thy neighbor as thy self" is another unrealistic rule of behavior since no 2 human beings are of the same nature and so since equality is not the law of nature I wonder how one can love his neighbor in the same manner as loves himself. If the saying of Moses has a mystical meaning then it would mean cultivating the vision of equality by merging in consciousness with the Self that underlies the frontal personality. But, which Self was Moses talking about? The Supreme Self or the Self of the vital plane to which he'd risen in his yoga?

Since: Jan 14

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#72412 Apr 24, 2014
BOTTOM LINE

1) The PLATINUM, GOLDEN & SILVER rules are ordinary codes prescribing a form of behavior that encourages cheap bargaining with others - "I lick your ass, you lick mine and this is how we get along", a kind of a compromise. It is a sure way to degradation and to lowering of lofty standards.

2) A person with lofty ideals is certain to be dragged down into the quagmire by others who dwell on the lower levels of awareness and made to conform with the common mores of the time.

3) The best suggestion is to always act at your best as far as possible and don't hide any aspect of your behavior that may benefit others even though it may appear farfetched to the ordinary vision at the moment.

4) Besides, have no expectations when dealing with others; in the absence of the yogic consciousness do make serious efforts to act with equanimity whenever possible by using reason and applying the force of the will to tame unregenerate thoughts/wild emotions; never rush in to offer advice or to help out when you're clearly not asked to do so or if the situation is beyond your capacity to make a positive difference; see to it that your thoughts, words and deeds are not at variance with each other and that they have a reformative effect on yourself and with respect to everything you do; and always attempt to demonstrate an ideal by practice rather than by precept.

Since: Jan 14

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#72413 Apr 24, 2014
IDEAL BEHAVIOR:

1) Have no expectations when dealing with others.

2) In the absence of the yogic consciousness do make serious efforts to act with equanimity whenever possible by using reason and applying the force of the will to tame unregenerate thoughts/wild emotions.

3) Never rush in to offer advice or to help out when you're clearly not asked to do so or if the situation is beyond your capacity to make a positive difference.

4) See to it that your thoughts, words and deeds are not at variance with each other and that they have a reformative effect on yourself and with respect to everything you do.

5) Make it a habit to demonstrate an ideal by practice rather than by precept.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#72414 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems that in many religions - not just Judaism - "anything goes" these days. Vatican II loosed things up for Catholics quite a bit, back in the 60s.
The institutions have probably realized if they're too strict, they will lose numbers and fail to thrive. The need butts in the pews and money to survive.
But we are still speaking within the context of religion, god, god concept - yes, theism. Without that, you have no collective, no organization, nothing to bring you out of you house on the weekends.
Why do you demean the paradigm as "anything goes" when I already explained that this is nothing new to the tradition?

It has NOTHING to do with "loosing things up". Thats another bias statement that has no bearing on this discussion. Maybe it has bearing on Catholicism, but I am not even going to attempt to pull that in to this discussion.

Hasidism is not based on strict theism - in the sense you are referring to. Yet is has collective, organization, and brings you out of you house on the weekends.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72415 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
Conceptions of God in monotheist, pantheist and panentheist religions or of the supreme deity in henotheistic religions can extend to various levels of abstraction:
##as a powerful, human-like, supernatural being, or as the deification of an esoteric, mystical or philosophical entity or category;
##as the "Ultimate", the summum bonum, the "Absolute Infinite", the "Transcendent", or Existence or Being itself;
##as the ground of being, the monistic substrate, that which we cannot understand; and so on.
__________
Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity,[1] or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god.[3] Some Eastern religions are considered to be pantheistically inclined.
__________
So I clearly see we aren't talking about the old man up in the sky.
But we are still talking about a god concept. Divinity.
That everything comes from a source other than themselves.
This gives them someone to pray to.
"Some consider it a theological and philosophical position concerning God.[4]:p.8"
God.
Atheists don't have this sort of take on things.
That switch is turned off (for now anyway).
Yours is turned on.
Theism/god belief switch is on.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Ok - I'll try a second time - we are not arguing MY beliefs - that discussion already happened

But will you at least acknowledge this point I already posted?

"But one academic point I will make again is that panentheism et al isnt necessarily OPPOSED to theism, rather it is viewing the issue from a totally different philosophical framework altogether - an analytical framework that is more useful for understanding the depth of accepted Jewish theologies than the theism vs atheism framework.

Since you earlier posed the question about what Jews believed and the boundaries of their belief (i.e. what is acceptable and what is not) all of these posts (especially the books) have not been to waste - rather they are presented as an answer to your question about what is considered within the realm of acceptable beliefs..."
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72416 Apr 24, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Depends on how one defines charity. For me, one aspect of charity is helping others help themselves whenever possible and not making people dependent on it if feasible.
Domestically, this means ensuring that provisions are in place for able-bodied people to work or educate themselves rather than receive indefinite welfare.
Internationally, it means helping provide the means for people to farm, irrigate, provide fresh water, etc. so that they can become self sufficient. Teach them to fish... as the saying goes
<quoted text>
Right.
<quoted text>
Do you think he would agree with my above statements?
I think he would and would prefer that sort of assistance than a pure hand out but also that he would lean towards the Silver Rule as less proactive. He really does want to be left alone. But then again, as I say, he's 85 and getting crankier all the time!(Though generous with his own family, and he does give to charities.. not sure which ones.)

People also become dependent on charity due to cultural and families patterns. I've seen this in my own work in Inner city Philadelphia. 4 generations under one roof, all on assistance. This somehow has to be broken; incentives and disincentives offered; the carrot and the stick/ It shouldn't be quite that easy. Another path needs to become the "path of least resistance." These folks really need something positive to hope for. A future.

I wouldn't consider job creation and educational opportunities to be charity but more the measure we should take to prevent the need for any sort of charity in the first place, or at least diminish/minimize this need. But I get it, job training and classes in place of a hand out.

Internationally I believe that much of the assistance does go toward farming, clean water etc. Good stuff. Bill Gates and others, even the great Jimmy Carter!:)
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72417 Apr 24, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you demean the paradigm as "anything goes" when I already explained that this is nothing new to the tradition?
It has NOTHING to do with "loosing things up". Thats another bias statement that has no bearing on this discussion. Maybe it has bearing on Catholicism, but I am not even going to attempt to pull that in to this discussion.
Hasidism is not based on strict theism - in the sense you are referring to. Yet is has collective, organization, and brings you out of you house on the weekends.
The teachings of Hasidism are founded on two theoretical conceptions:(1) religious Panentheism, or the omnipresence of God, and (2) the idea of Devekus, communion between God and man. "Man," says the Besht (Baal Shem Tov), "must always bear in mind that God is omnipresent and is always with him; that God is the most subtle matter everywhere diffused... Let man realize that when he is looking at material things he is in reality gazing at the image of the Deity which is present in all things. With this in mind man will always serve God even in small matters."[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism#...

I never used the word strict. I do believe I was also taught that god is everywhere.
But clearly there is a god concept here. Ok, it's not new. I'm expert on Judaism et al....

How is this not a monotheistic religion? Seriously.

I take it then you don't believe that the theism-switch is binary, on or off.

As we go on to describe whether one is an:

Agnostic theist vs gnostic
and same for atheists. 4 possible combinations.

This is where if you recall that CoR used the Easter bunny argument to get me off the fence from agnostic to agnostic-atheist.

Perhaps you need to come off the fence from "god is everywhere and everything" to theist.
It won't hurt a bit. Promise.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72418 Apr 24, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok - I'll try a second time - we are not arguing MY beliefs - that discussion already happened
But will you at least acknowledge this point I already posted?
It should be noted that my not agreeing doesn't mean I didn't read your post.
Sometimes I'm just trying to get back to whatever I thought MY point was, though you may attempt to re-define the conversation toward what YOU think it's about or should be about. Geeeezzzz!!:-)

Agreed, we're not discussing your beliefs per se, but yes, as discussing the labeling of same.
I said this in of my last posts if you bothered to read it. I said "no, not now anyway" or something to that effect in response to similar thing you said. Labeling, yes. Beliefs themselves, no.

Ok, on we go.....
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
"But one academic point I will make again is that panentheism et al isnt necessarily OPPOSED to theism, rather it is viewing the issue from a totally different philosophical framework altogether - an analytical framework that is more useful for understanding the depth of accepted Jewish theologies than the theism vs atheism framework.
Of course it isn't OPPOSED to theism as in my view it IS a theology with different stripes. It's rebranded, repackaged. I posted the language but I guess you missed it - god, divinity etc. These are all god concept words., Religion....theism.....oneness , sure - no man up in the sky - I get that. Some might call it "religion-light" but it's still religion, "God is everywhere" we have that at my old church. God is a tree. ok. so? We all agree that nature is awe-inspiring and certainly some of god's best work.

I said all this before. You didn't seem to want to respond as you thought I was personalizing it?? not sure if that's the reason
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Since you earlier posed the question about what Jews believed and the boundaries of their belief (i.e. what is acceptable and what is not) all of these posts (especially the books) have not been to waste - rather they are presented as an answer to your question about what is considered within the realm of acceptable beliefs..."
No not a waste. I did look at them. And I get that.

I don't think I read anything that would cause anyone to be drummed out of any religion..

I think there's a lot of latitude for differences in most religions.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72419 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The teachings of Hasidism are founded on two theoretical conceptions:(1) religious Panentheism, or the omnipresence of God, and (2) the idea of Devekus, communion between God and man. "Man," says the Besht (Baal Shem Tov), "must always bear in mind that God is omnipresent and is always with him; that God is the most subtle matter everywhere diffused... Let man realize that when he is looking at material things he is in reality gazing at the image of the Deity which is present in all things. With this in mind man will always serve God even in small matters."[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism#...
I never used the word strict. I do believe I was also taught that god is everywhere.
But clearly there is a god concept here. Ok, it's not new. I'm expert on Judaism et al....
How is this not a monotheistic religion? Seriously.
I take it then you don't believe that the theism-switch is binary, on or off.
As we go on to describe whether one is an:
Agnostic theist vs gnostic
and same for atheists. 4 possible combinations.
This is where if you recall that CoR used the Easter bunny argument to get me off the fence from agnostic to agnostic-atheist.
Perhaps you need to come off the fence from "god is everywhere and everything" to theist.
It won't hurt a bit. Promise.
Yes, from day one (or day ago or so) I stated "God or god concept". I introduced the term god concept as shout out to the less theistically inclined variants.

Much of Hasidism skirts back and forth into nondualism - which isnt theism. It isnt atheism either. Again - the limitations of the theism/atheism continnum for describing god concepts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism#Jewis...

In nondualism - god is neither subject nor object - hence it is not really theistic. Theism presupposes a god out there - an object....

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72420 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The teachings of Hasidism are founded on two theoretical conceptions:(1) religious Panentheism, or the omnipresence of God, and (2) the idea of Devekus, communion between God and man. "Man," says the Besht (Baal Shem Tov), "must always bear in mind that God is omnipresent and is always with him; that God is the most subtle matter everywhere diffused... Let man realize that when he is looking at material things he is in reality gazing at the image of the Deity which is present in all things. With this in mind man will always serve God even in small matters."[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism#...
Kudos for you for doing some research! Effort is appreciated.

The Besht, ironically, although credited as the founder of the movement, was probably one of the more theistically inclined. The next generation of leaders delved deeper into Kabbalah than the Besht and were more nondualistic and less theistic in their philosophies. Kabbalah itself is a much earlier tradition than Hasidism.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72421 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
No not a waste. I did look at them. And I get that.
I don't think I read anything that would cause anyone to be drummed out of any religion..
I think there's a lot of latitude for differences in most religions.
Thats a fair comment. I originally presented this line of discussion just to indicate what could be considered as ok within the religion as acceptable beliefs, and not so much as a commentary on what is within other religions. But I get what you are saying....

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72422 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course it isn't OPPOSED to theism as in my view it IS a theology with different stripes. It's rebranded, repackaged. I posted the language but I guess you missed it - god, divinity etc. These are all god concept words., Religion....theism.....oneness , sure - no man up in the sky - I get that. Some might call it "religion-light" but it's still religion, "God is everywhere" we have that at my old church. God is a tree. ok. so? We all agree that nature is awe-inspiring and certainly some of god's best work.
I said all this before. You didn't seem to want to respond as you thought I was personalizing it?? not sure if that's the reason
theology: agreed
Wiki: Theology is the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and of the nature of religious truths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology

Is it a religion? Thats another discussion. I define religion as mans response to a perceived reality (or calling) of God (or in this case god concept). However, with the exception of some people who are trying to divorce Kaballah from the Jewish religion, the religion which includes panentheism et al is simply Judaism. Its not a specific unique religion, rather those who share these theologies tend to observe Jewish practices no differently than the more strict theistically inclined.

"...nature is awe-inspiring and certainly some of god's best work..." A strict nondualist would argue that nature is not Gods work but god itself.

re personalizing: I thought you were questioning where I stood on the issue of theism, and I felt that was a tangent.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72423 Apr 24, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
theology: agreed
Wiki: Theology is the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and of the nature of religious truths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology
Is it a religion? Thats another discussion. I define religion as mans response to a perceived reality (or calling) of God (or in this case god concept). However, with the exception of some people who are trying to divorce Kaballah from the Jewish religion, the religion which includes panentheism et al is simply Judaism. Its not a specific unique religion, rather those who share these theologies tend to observe Jewish practices no differently than the more strict theistically inclined.
"The teachings of Hasidism are founded on two theoretical conceptions:(1) religious Panentheism, or the omnipresence of God, and..."

It did say "religious pantheism..." from the link that you gave my kudos for!:))

So you go to the synagogue, you pray, your read from ancient, texts, observe holidays....are you religious? are you a theist? You seem to walk and talk like that duck.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
"...nature is awe-inspiring and certainly some of god's best work..." A strict nondualist would argue that nature is not Gods work but god itself.
re personalizing: I thought you were questioning where I stood on the issue of theism, and I felt that was a tangent.
Yes, that was pretty much my point because I believed you indicated you were not a theist and this I had an issue with as indicated above.

So what you saw as a tangent due to a previous question that I asked, did actually become the thing I was most interested in exploring. I think that's where our wires got crossed.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72424 Apr 24, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
"The teachings of Hasidism are founded on two theoretical conceptions:(1) religious Panentheism, or the omnipresence of God, and..."
It did say "religious pantheism..." from the link that you gave my kudos for!:))
So you go to the synagogue, you pray, your read from ancient, texts, observe holidays....are you religious? are you a theist? You seem to walk and talk like that duck.
<quoted text>
Yes, that was pretty much my point because I believed you indicated you were not a theist and this I had an issue with as indicated above.
So what you saw as a tangent due to a previous question that I asked, did actually become the thing I was most interested in exploring. I think that's where our wires got crossed.
well, if you want to detour back to what I believe - I have no problem with that.

first off - to quote someone else "its not what about you believe, its about what you see - what you discern in the world and how you understand your experience".

second - I never like these labels of theist vs atheist anyhow, because they assume a static personality - which is inconsistent with my personal existence. In the course of a typical day, I might have leanings that are theistic, atheistic, and agnostic, depending on what I am doing. And I doubt I am alone with this.

My own God concept is more panentheistic than theistic, and more theistic than pantheist.

However, my concept arises when I think of God as an object. But in the course of experiencing my God concept, it is not an object, it is an experience. Its no more an object than you experiencing the wind, or the rain. Sure, there is a rain, and perhaps a wind - but thinking/reflecting about it, and experiencing it are two different categories of perception.

And finally, and I have mentioned this a few times before, since we are humans with a self-constructed sense of self, in order to be able to worship, we have no choice but to construct an "it" to worship "to". Thats the theistic part of my belief system- its a necessary construction on my behalf in order to worship. I invent it out of practicality, however if I was to describe my god concept more in depth, "it" would not be an "it" - i.e. we are not external to the system to grant it "it-hood". We only grant it "it-hood" out of necessity since we have already constructed our "I", and during prayer (when using language) we function on this level of creating objects and identities.

And finally finally, I view Torah as mans perceived idea of what God might have wanted to say rather than divine revelation - i.e. someone meditated on God and received this in the man's own words as a response (a liberal position more in line with perhaps the Reform movement), however I also view Torah as inseparable from God (a position more in line with Hasidism) and view the world as Torah as well.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72426 Apr 24, 2014
TORAH FOR BARBARIANS

TORAH is a set of petty teachings that encompass a state of high barbarism and so in this sense Torah is the worldview of those persons who cling to the unregenerate aspects of life.

The higher ranges of existence where greater harmony prevails are way beyond Torah and far above all the shallow rules that're based on cheap bargaining whether Platinum, Golden or Silver.

MOSES, the author of the TORAH or CHUMASH, was a barbarian of an extremely high order.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72427 Apr 24, 2014
STRING THEORY AND OMNIJECTIVE RESEARCH

1) String theory is an intellectual dead-end but it keeps draws funding from lobbies with vested interest who wish to keep the rarefied physics discipline alive.

2) The intellectual basis of strings is sound and borrowed from Vedanta - matter, say its proponents, is not made up of small dot-like entities such as neutrons or quarks but of incredibly small threads of energy that vibrate. A string that vibrates one way becomes an electron. Another, vibrating differently, becomes a neutron. And another becomes one of the carriers of the force of gravity. So, in brief, it means that a field of energy vibrates at different frequencies with each frequency of vibration manifesting as a particular entity. The difficulty with strings is that it works on a scale of 10 spatio-temporal dimensions which makes it subtle to investigate using known physical means or to make useful and verifiable predictions.

3) Imagine the colossal amount of energy that would be required to probe deep into the heart of matter to investigate the higher dimensions.

4) The problem with most people is that they easily tend to dismiss anything that cannot be readily tested by known physical means despite the model being strong in its hypothetical aspect. As such strings is increasingly being described as a theoretical cul-de-sac since the scientists cannot generate those huge amounts of energy on a small scale needed to make practical inferences of its workings. The particle smasher could spread out almost over the whole globe thereby making it impractical to verify the esoteric claims of strings.

5) Strings has been quite successful in explaining both the very small and the incredibly large, yet it is being dismissed as a bogus hypothesis because of the formidable challenge it presents to researchers who need to smash open atoms to observe the workings of strings in the higher dimensions stretching up to the 10th. It implies a failure of human effort and not of the hypothesis.

6) The ordinary human effort encompasses relatively small scales of energy that it effectively puts to use. To examine the subtler dimensions of the energy field, one needs the mystical consciousness based on omnijectiveness.

7) The mystics use their awakened consciousness as the only instrument to investigate the higher dimensions of the universal field of energy which includes strings and goes far beyond.

Since: Jan 14

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#72428 Apr 24, 2014
CAUSATION

1) The cause becomes the effect.

2) The effect is nothing else but the cause in partial or in complete manifestation.

3) The cause should be at least as great as its effect in terms of information content.

4) A particular state of existence corresponds to a commensurate degree of information in terms of matter energy and consciousness.

Since: Jan 14

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#72429 Apr 24, 2014
NORMAL & SUPERNORMAL:

1) The words physical and non-physical are mere conventions and in many ways they're misnomers.

2) There exists a cosmic field of energy with an innate intelligent principle that upon manifestation vibrates at different frequencies.

3) Each frequency of vibration of the energy field in manifestation denotes a particular state of existence. Thus, we have matter, life, emotions, mind and intuitive states of existence that're simply the different frequencies of vibration of the cosmic field of energy.

4) Science investigates the lowest frequency of vibration of the cosmic energy field that's known as matter, while yoga goes beyond to the higher frequencies.

5) These different ranges of frequencies of vibration of the universal energy field interact among themselves in feeble or in potent ways depending on their proximity to each other thus giving rise to effects..

6) The temporary hybridization, brought about by an act of the heightened will of the mystic, of a certain number of frequencies of vibration of the energy field gives rise to super-normal effects that in popular parlance are known as paranormal phenomena.

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