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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66700 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
What is a non-theist religion?
Examples?
What makes these religions?
Versus say, philosophies?
I gave you from the Jewish perspectives a few examples a while ago. They tend to be of the nonduality perspective. Hasidic approaches, kabbalistic approaches, reconstructionist approaches. From the nonJewish perspective, Zen Bhuddism.....

I define religion as a human response to a calling (or yearning). Religion is a behavior not just a thought process. Philosophy is a system of thought.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66701 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You know me only through my typed words. We've communicated.
I understand praying/wishing/worshiping.
The part I don't understand is how this entity has communicated with you.
What form does this take?
Do you have more evidence for my existence than for this object's?
I keep telling you, grasshopper, that I dont believe in an entity. I am not a theist. I do believe in an interconnectiveness of things, and afford that "Being" status out of respect for language. Its more a process than a noun, but noun language comes in handy. Think of it this way. What are you? A collection of cells AND bacteria(other beings). What is God? A collection of people, places, and things, in process. What is my evidence? Who knows? All I know is how the outside "world" relates to me, and how I relate back. Thats a feeling, not a thought.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66702 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Like most things, the truth is probably in the middle - both.
How many other animals can learn right or wrong, good or bad, or reason? To what extent?
If a child is raised by Fagin (think Oliver Twist), then well, you know.
So clearly it's both, but the neurological framework/wiring needs to be present.
The point was I believe that we don't need religion to teach morality or ethics and clearly this is true as well.
Even if one were to show a positive correlation between atheism and, say crime - this would only show correlation and not causation.
It could just be that criminals don't tend to make time to go to church or temple.
I never said religion was NEEDED to teach morality. I said morality is found within religion. And Rick said that morality originated in religion historically. I have always said here that there are a plurality of paths that more or less lead you to the same place. You can get ethics from lit and movies (and cartoons) or get them from religion.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66703 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you suggesting that complex behavior like morality (assuming it is evolutionary) will fall to the identification of a single gene? I assume you're being a little facetious? We're not talking about hair color. More likely, we talking about genetic variations across multiple genes, and possibly entire brain structures. Surely you know it's not as simplistic as a single gene.
Of course I was being facetious. Thats why I cast my lot with the social scientists. Morality is a social construct.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66704 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
So you agree that the non-religious (atheists/agnostics) can be just as focused and think just as deeply as the religious, just in their own way? If you can agree to this without any exception clauses, then I think we can move on...
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Fine. But I'd like to see you agree that this type of behavior pattern (deep focus) can also be achieved without any religion (thesist or non-thesist).
I have said both things, a billion posts ago. For some reason either you were reading me superficially (too much multi-tasking) or your bias is stronger than you cared to admit.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66705 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
What is a non-theist religion?
Examples?
What makes these religions?
Versus say, philosophies?
Here is a definition of religion that reflects my views

I know there are many other definitions, but my point is that IS fair game to move beyond the "system of belief" definition that you provided earlier, if one chooses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definit...

In his book The Varieties of Religious Experience, the psychologist William James defined religion as "the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine".[31] By the term "divine" James meant "any object that is godlike, whether it be a concrete deity or not"[32] to which the individual feels impelled to respond with solemnity and gravity.[33]

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66706 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I have said both things, a billion posts ago. For some reason either you were reading me superficially (too much multi-tasking) or your bias is stronger than you cared to admit.
Apparently, Former is in the same boat as me as he too found your statements confusing when you referred to religios thinkiers as "deeper" and "more focused" . If you agree that the non-religious" can be equally deep and focused, then I think we're done.

And I would caution against playing the "bias" card. You know that works both ways.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66707 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently, Former is in the same boat as me as he too found your statements confusing when you referred to religios thinkiers as "deeper" and "more focused" . If you agree that the non-religious" can be equally deep and focused, then I think we're done.
And I would caution against playing the "bias" card. You know that works both ways.
If you scroll way back you will find that I refined my discourse after the FIRST round of questioning, when I moved from religion to awareness. Plus, even before that I moved the discussion away from theism.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66708 Feb 2, 2014
To change the subject (and lighten the mood a bit) is anyone planning on watching the Super Bowl tonight? I used to watch it strictly for the commercials - funny stuff....though this time I have some skin in the game since I entered an office pool.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66709 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
To change the subject (and lighten the mood a bit) is anyone planning on watching the Super Bowl tonight? I used to watch it strictly for the commercials - funny stuff....though this time I have some skin in the game since I entered an office pool.
Nah. I dont have live TV. My source of amusement this weekend has been the Chris Christie flame out.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66710 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Nah. I dont have live TV. My source of amusement this weekend has been the Chris Christie flame out.
Do you think he'll resign or get forced out? The odds are looking pretty good.

Have you been catching Job Stewarts take on it? I believe you can watch that online.

Also, the HuffPost has a bunch of banned Super Bowl commercials that you can watch from their site. Pretty funny stuff.

Who needs live TV anymore?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66711 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you think he'll resign or get forced out? The odds are looking pretty good.
Have you been catching Job Stewarts take on it? I believe you can watch that online.
Also, the HuffPost has a bunch of banned Super Bowl commercials that you can watch from their site. Pretty funny stuff.
Who needs live TV anymore?
I think he will ultimately resign, but not until impeachment process is well underway. Its obvious to me at least that he has no grip on reality. I mean, did you see the memo he sent out to impugn his "friend"? Totally vindictive. Better off saying nothing.

Have watched a little Stewart lately. My favorite was his take down of the Republican response to the State of the Union.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66712 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I gave you from the Jewish perspectives a few examples a while ago. They tend to be of the nonduality perspective. Hasidic approaches, kabbalistic approaches, reconstructionist approaches. From the nonJewish perspective, Zen Bhuddism.....
I define religion as a human response to a calling (or yearning). Religion is a behavior not just a thought process. Philosophy is a system of thought.
Right, and I posted the correct definition of the word religion.

Now I remember.

You're making up your own definition for the word.

No wonder I'm confused.

This is why we have a supposedly common language, until someone
decides to call up down.

By your definition, young men going out to bars at night to seek
women - that would be a religion. Some might agree. I think we've
all had that calling.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66713 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I keep telling you, grasshopper, that I dont believe in an entity. I am not a theist. I do believe in an interconnectiveness of things, and afford that "Being" status out of respect for language. Its more a process than a noun, but noun language comes in handy. Think of it this way. What are you? A collection of cells AND bacteria(other beings). What is God? A collection of people, places, and things, in process. What is my evidence? Who knows? All I know is how the outside "world" relates to me, and how I relate back. Thats a feeling, not a thought.
You wrote:

>....And, like I said before, its not that I know of such an "object", what I can relate to is how it relates to me, in the same way I know you from my relationship to you. I dont know the real you.......

So you compared whatever it is you pray to, to me. Hence again, my confusion.

You don't pray to anything in particular? You pray to everything? You don't really believe in anything? But you believe it's all connected, so you kind of pray to that idea?

May I remind you again that "a process" is actually "a noun."

What I hear is that you really don't believe in god.

It's ok to say so.

Why go to temple.? You can do what you do on your own.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66714 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is a definition of religion that reflects my views
I know there are many other definitions, but my point is that IS fair game to move beyond the "system of belief" definition that you provided earlier, if one chooses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definit...
In his book The Varieties of Religious Experience, the psychologist William James defined religion as "the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine".[31] By the term "divine" James meant "any object that is godlike, whether it be a concrete deity or not"[32] to which the individual feels impelled to respond with solemnity and gravity.[33]
That's not what divine means. It connotes god.

Full Definition of DIVINE

1

a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love>

b : being a deity <the divine Savior>

c : directed to a deity <divine worship>

Why use the word religion if you don't believe in god.

Why even count yourself a follower of Judaism?

It seems what you really value is meditation.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66715 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
To change the subject (and lighten the mood a bit) is anyone planning on watching the Super Bowl tonight? I used to watch it strictly for the commercials - funny stuff....though this time I have some skin in the game since I entered an office pool.
I'm disillusioned at half-time. 22 zip.

I wanted the Broncos to win. 37 year old QB vs 25 year old punk who has plenty of time.

Also Seattle seems cocky!

Stopped watching but I'll check back.

Watching Anthony Bourdain in Denmark!

Good luck with the bet.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66716 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I gave you from the Jewish perspectives a few examples a while ago. They tend to be of the nonduality perspective. Hasidic approaches, kabbalistic approaches, reconstructionist approaches. From the nonJewish perspective, Zen Bhuddism.....
I define religion as a human response to a calling (or yearning). Religion is a behavior not just a thought process. Philosophy is a system of thought.
Got a new favourite show -- "Venture Bros"

Imagine Jonny Quest if it was written and directed by John Waters and Sam Peckinpah ... freakin' awesome.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66717 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You wrote:
>....And, like I said before, its not that I know of such an "object", what I can relate to is how it relates to me, in the same way I know you from my relationship to you. I dont know the real you.......
So you compared whatever it is you pray to, to me. Hence again, my confusion.
You don't pray to anything in particular? You pray to everything? You don't really believe in anything? But you believe it's all connected, so you kind of pray to that idea?
May I remind you again that "a process" is actually "a noun."
What I hear is that you really don't believe in god.
It's ok to say so.
Yes I can compare you to "the divine" in a way. In both cases I dont know the real you, what I know is how you relate to me, which boils down to my EXPERIENCE of you, not the essence of you,(which btw isnt really you anyhow, being that a large percentage of you is bacteria)

To me, God is more a process, but I relate to it as a static being for the purpose of prayer, being that this makes more sense at the time (temporary illusion for the sake of understanding the limits of language). A process becomes a noun when you speak ABOUT it. But its essense (so to speak) is flux.

If I was going to construct a theology of God, i.e. force it into a system of thought and beliefs, then I would borrow from the nondual and perhaps panentheistic approaches.

For the zillionith time, I tend not to be a theist,. So I dont believe in an external God in the sky. Which is what you mean, from a Christian perspective, when you say God.

But there are other models of god out there.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>Why go to temple.? You can do what you do on your own.
Its a mitzvah to pray with others. Let alone the other obvious benefits

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66718 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not what divine means. It connotes god.
Full Definition of DIVINE
1
a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love>
b : being a deity <the divine Savior>
c : directed to a deity <divine worship>
.
You are hung up on theism. Its ok, its probably your Christian background.

Someday if you get the opportunity, you should learn more about the systems of about Yoga, martial arts, or zen bhuddism,

That said, I offered a definition that was more in synch with my belief system. I didnt even invent it, I adopted it from Hasidic and post-Hasidic thought - primarily the work of AJ Heschel - probably one of the most famous Jewish theologians of the 20th century.

Then I found a nice Christian man who essentially said the same thing.

You dont have to agree with it - but I offered it just to show I am not out on a limb on any of this.



“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66719 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Right, and I posted the correct definition of the word religion.
Now I remember.
You're making up your own definition for the word.
No wonder I'm confused.
This is why we have a supposedly common language, until someone
decides to call up down.
By your definition, young men going out to bars at night to seek
women - that would be a religion. Some might agree. I think we've
all had that calling.
Again, I posted sources.

You need to get out more often and speak or study with others.

Here is another source from a Jewish perspective. Kind of heavy - but since you brought up the topic. His basic thesis - Evolution is God. Then he backs it up with Jewish sources.

http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Judaism-Rethink...

And here is an article comparing some forms of Bhuddism with Hasidic thought
http://realitysandwich.com/47710/nonduality_b...

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