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former res

Cheshire, CT

#66684 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Back from a hiatus.
My roles here was to provide another POV. It was never to say that the POV was THE answer. You properly called me on the carpet when you thought I was coming off as arrogant. My response was to refine my answer to make it more understandable, thats all. I dont wish to convince you of anything.
Welcome back!

I don't think either of us is trying to convert or recruit the other. Just having a friendly debate over philosophy/religion/beliefs, whatever you want to call it.

This is why I was attempting to nail down yours.

I realize there is a spectrum of beliefs within any religion (hence we have "Cafeteria Catholics):

Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length (see Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.

.........Some say they are absolute, unchanging laws from G-d (Orthodox); some say they are laws from G-d that change and evolve over time (Conservative); some say that they are guidelines that you can choose whether or not to follow (Reform, Reconstructionist). For more on these distinctions, see Movements of Judaism.

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66685 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolution of morality
The evolution of morality refers to the emergence of human moral behavior over the course of human evolution. Morality can be defined as a system of ideas about right and wrong conduct. In everyday life, morality is typically associated with human behavior and not much thought is given to the social conducts of other creatures. The emerging fields of evolutionary biology and in particular sociobiology have argued that, though human social behaviors are complex, the precursors of human morality can be traced to the behaviors of many other social animals.

Sociobiological explanations of human behavior are still controversial. The traditional view of social scientists has been that morality is a construct, and is thus culturally relative, although others argue that there is a science of morality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mor...
Nature vs Nurture again. Sociobiologists vs the social scientists.

When they find a gene that expresses morality, I will be more impressed with the former perspective. Until then, I am more sympathetic to the latter.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66686 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
.........I'd imagine some people have a yearning to connect to something greater than themselves. To those people, the next step is to see out a vocabulary to help them express this yearning. Organized religion provides that vocabulary and a path.
If you dont have the motivation (yearning, calling, whatever), then the path is not attractive to you, and the vocabulary is meaningless.
It is the very existence of this thing/entity/force that you refer to as "greater than ourselves" that many of us question. We have no evidence for its existence. Do you?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66687 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Welcome back!
I don't think either of us is trying to convert or recruit the other. Just having a friendly debate over philosophy/religion/beliefs, whatever you want to call it.
This is why I was attempting to nail down yours.
I realize there is a spectrum of beliefs within any religion (hence we have "Cafeteria Catholics):
Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length (see Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.
.........Some say they are absolute, unchanging laws from G-d (Orthodox); some say they are laws from G-d that change and evolve over time (Conservative); some say that they are guidelines that you can choose whether or not to follow (Reform, Reconstructionist). For more on these distinctions, see Movements of Judaism.
http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
What may be confusing was that I was not offering my own beliefs. I was offering an education on nontheistic perspectives.

My own beliefs are more in between. hence the panENtheism.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66688 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My posts were about BEHAVING more deeply than others, and I already established that you dont have to be "religious" in the common theist sense of the word to be like this. You just need to be aware (i.e. stop mulltitasking).
If anything, its thinking LESS deeply.
Think less deeply; behave more deeply. Stop multitasking.

Can you blame me for being a bit confused?

:))

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66689 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It is the very existence of this thing/entity/force that you refer to as "greater than ourselves" that many of us question. We have no evidence for its existence. Do you?
My evidence would be subjective, therefore you would not recognize it as evidence under objective standards. But it is evidence enough for me.

And, like I said before, its not that I know of such an "object", what I can relate to is how it relates to me, in the same way I know you from my relationship to you. I dont know the real you.

And, I recognize that I objectify this "object", as is necessary, to construct Godtalk - i.e. to talk "about" it, to connect "to"it. Because as humans, we are subject to the limits of our own grammar.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66690 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Think less deeply; behave more deeply. Stop multitasking.
Can you blame me for being a bit confused?
:))
Not sure where you are going on this.

What is your objective?

If your objective is to know "God", FROM a nondual perspective, then the above advice would be relevant.

I cant help you from the theistic perspectives. They never did make much sense to me, accept as extreme allusions.

I will tell you that there are multiple avenues out there in our culture to learn about this that arent affiliated with Judaism or Christianity. You can learn a lot from martial arts, from yoga, from a Japanese Tea Ceremony etc etc. You have to start from where you are, from where you are comfortable from.

Then as the concepts start to make more sense, you can integrate with similar constructs from the other perspectives as well. Or not.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66691 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It is the very existence of this thing/entity/force that you refer to as "greater than ourselves" that many of us question. We have no evidence for its existence. Do you?
I might add that straight theism never made much sense to me either.

It wasnt until I was provided with an alternative vocabulary that harmonized more with my personal experiences that I even could entertain such an idea - and only with the qualifiers I posted previously.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66692 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.
My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.
However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.
Aside from the post on the Evolution of Morality from Former, you can also investigate any one of numerous thoughts on the relationship of science and moral relativism. This is a topic discussed in mutliple hard and soft scientific disciplines such as Sociology, Psychology, Biology, Neurology, etc... Surely you knew this, no?

And why in the world would I have the need to "worship" it? Simply understanding it seems adequate enough, unless, of course, you equate appreciating it's complexities with worship.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66693 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.
My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.
However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.
Sorry, you asked for a link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism...

Of course, there is a plethora of other information out there. Probably more efficient for you to google it yourself.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66694 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My posts were about BEHAVING more deeply than others, and I already established that you dont have to be "religious" in the common theist sense of the word to be like this. You just need to be aware (i.e. stop mulltitasking).
If anything, its thinking LESS deeply.
So you agree that the non-religious (atheists/agnostics) can be just as focused and think just as deeply as the religious, just in their own way? If you can agree to this without any exception clauses, then I think we can move on...

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66695 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
We already agreed that this behavior pattern - deep focus - is uncorrelated with practice of theist religion. However, non-theist "religion" or behavior philosophy does encourage this type of behavior pattern.
Fine. But I'd like to see you agree that this type of behavior pattern (deep focus) can also be achieved without any religion (thesist or non-thesist).

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66696 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Nature vs Nurture again. Sociobiologists vs the social scientists.
When they find a gene that expresses morality, I will be more impressed with the former perspective. Until then, I am more sympathetic to the latter.
Are you suggesting that complex behavior like morality (assuming it is evolutionary) will fall to the identification of a single gene? I assume you're being a little facetious? We're not talking about hair color. More likely, we talking about genetic variations across multiple genes, and possibly entire brain structures. Surely you know it's not as simplistic as a single gene.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66697 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Nature vs Nurture again. Sociobiologists vs the social scientists.
When they find a gene that expresses morality, I will be more impressed with the former perspective. Until then, I am more sympathetic to the latter.
Like most things, the truth is probably in the middle - both.

How many other animals can learn right or wrong, good or bad, or reason? To what extent?

If a child is raised by Fagin (think Oliver Twist), then well, you know.

So clearly it's both, but the neurological framework/wiring needs to be present.

The point was I believe that we don't need religion to teach morality or ethics and clearly this is true as well.

Even if one were to show a positive correlation between atheism and, say crime - this would only show correlation and not causation.

It could just be that criminals don't tend to make time to go to church or temple.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66698 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>....And, like I said before, its not that I know of such an "object", what I can relate to is how it relates to me, in the same way I know you from my relationship to you. I dont know the real you.......
You know me only through my typed words. We've communicated.

I understand praying/wishing/worshiping.

The part I don't understand is how this entity has communicated with you.
What form does this take?

Do you have more evidence for my existence than for this object's?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66699 Feb 2, 2014
What is a non-theist religion?

Examples?

What makes these religions?

Versus say, philosophies?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66700 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
What is a non-theist religion?
Examples?
What makes these religions?
Versus say, philosophies?
I gave you from the Jewish perspectives a few examples a while ago. They tend to be of the nonduality perspective. Hasidic approaches, kabbalistic approaches, reconstructionist approaches. From the nonJewish perspective, Zen Bhuddism.....

I define religion as a human response to a calling (or yearning). Religion is a behavior not just a thought process. Philosophy is a system of thought.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66701 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You know me only through my typed words. We've communicated.
I understand praying/wishing/worshiping.
The part I don't understand is how this entity has communicated with you.
What form does this take?
Do you have more evidence for my existence than for this object's?
I keep telling you, grasshopper, that I dont believe in an entity. I am not a theist. I do believe in an interconnectiveness of things, and afford that "Being" status out of respect for language. Its more a process than a noun, but noun language comes in handy. Think of it this way. What are you? A collection of cells AND bacteria(other beings). What is God? A collection of people, places, and things, in process. What is my evidence? Who knows? All I know is how the outside "world" relates to me, and how I relate back. Thats a feeling, not a thought.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66702 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Like most things, the truth is probably in the middle - both.
How many other animals can learn right or wrong, good or bad, or reason? To what extent?
If a child is raised by Fagin (think Oliver Twist), then well, you know.
So clearly it's both, but the neurological framework/wiring needs to be present.
The point was I believe that we don't need religion to teach morality or ethics and clearly this is true as well.
Even if one were to show a positive correlation between atheism and, say crime - this would only show correlation and not causation.
It could just be that criminals don't tend to make time to go to church or temple.
I never said religion was NEEDED to teach morality. I said morality is found within religion. And Rick said that morality originated in religion historically. I have always said here that there are a plurality of paths that more or less lead you to the same place. You can get ethics from lit and movies (and cartoons) or get them from religion.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66703 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you suggesting that complex behavior like morality (assuming it is evolutionary) will fall to the identification of a single gene? I assume you're being a little facetious? We're not talking about hair color. More likely, we talking about genetic variations across multiple genes, and possibly entire brain structures. Surely you know it's not as simplistic as a single gene.
Of course I was being facetious. Thats why I cast my lot with the social scientists. Morality is a social construct.

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