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former res

Cheshire, CT

#66596 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
this is bit of a red herring because it is tangential to the discussion, IMO. I use the Fundie label because it shows I am addressing the extreme and not the religion itself.
.

Exactly a red herring. Just my point.

So why use the label? So as not to offend the mainstream?

Or to further distance yourself from them?

I don't automatically think of suicide bombers when I think
of Muslims, though many Americans due ( probably fundies do!).
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont think many Christians label themselves as "fundamentalists" (in my experience). Baptists, Born Again, Biblical Christians, etc etc are the labels I am more familiar with
But I think EVERY religion has their extremes. What I mean by that are those groups who follow their text or leaders literally, and as such tend to have control issues and prejudices.
don't forget the evangelicals - Billy Graham etc
I think many of them could be called fundies
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66597 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Rick put it best - for every case of negative side effect you cite, someone can cite a negative side effect from secularism. It boils down to people, not ideologies.
Do you think that each and every Nazi (Godwin's Law) was deep down an evil person.

Know anything about organization dynamics?

Group think etc? Mob psychology?

Everything isn't really "evens-stevens." The dems aren't really as obstructionist
as the Tea Party. We want to think it's all equal - but it ain't.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66598 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong. Logic is only one branch of philosophy.
phi·los·o·phy noun \f&#601;-&#712;lä-s( &#601;-)f&#275;\
: the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a particular set of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a set of ideas about how to do something or how to live
Sounds a lot like religion - no? "nature and meaning of life" etc
Search is a mental activity. So are affairs of the heart to which you refer. What other organ
did you have in mind?(And keep this rated G)
All your emotionality (and mine) take place in our brains.
Do you disagree?
What do you have against Unitarians?
It's to call your religion a philosophy. You've already stated you don't even have to believe in god per se.
Actually it reinforces my point. Note ..."study of ideas, set of ideas". Thats essentially a mental activity.

Religion - how man answers his perception of Gods calling. Or Mans search for God. etc etc
Note- that is behavior.

Have nothing against Unitarians. Just a comment. They prioritize discussions, analysis.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66599 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you think that each and every Nazi (Godwin's Law) was deep down an evil person.
Know anything about organization dynamics?
Group think etc? Mob psychology?
Everything isn't really "evens-stevens." The dems aren't really as obstructionist
as the Tea Party. We want to think it's all equal - but it ain't.
There were different degrees of Nazism. Some were believers, some were just followers. But dont discount the believers.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66600 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
it's OK to call your religion a philosophy .....
[it should be]
To quote A.J. Heschel..."For religion is more than a creed or ideology and can not be understood detached from living."

also.."The Bible does not intend to teach us principles of creation or redemption. It came to teach us that God is alive, that he is creator and redeemer..the concern of philosophy is to analyze or to explain, the concern of religion is to purify and to sanctify...Speculation (philosophy) starts with concepts, Biblical religion starts with events. The life of religion is given not in the mental preservation of ideas but in events and insights..."

I think what is confusing you is not religion, but theology. Theology is a type of philosophy. Interestingly, one has to DERIVE theology from the bible (OT), because the emphasis and style of the text is via narrative.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66601 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>.
Exactly a red herring. Just my point.
So why use the label? So as not to offend the mainstream?
Or to further distance yourself from them?
I don't automatically think of suicide bombers when I think
of Muslims, though many Americans due ( probably fundies do!).
<quoted text>
don't forget the evangelicals - Billy Graham etc
I think many of them could be called fundies
Actually it was COR, a long time ago, who coined the label "fundie", and I adopted it.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66602 Jan 30, 2014
MAAT wrote:
The fundies questioned sofar about their motives and awareness and acceptance are not forthcoming with insight.
On the whole they appear clueless as to why they believe what they believe.(also in reading skills. literal interpretation serves large.)
Or rather how they even got to the point they are now.
I found that quite amazing, but stopped exploring since they showed frustration or provided long quotes of often contradictory statements.
(Which they did not notice)
Much of it can be explained by the literal approach, combined with a trust of oral education.

And combined with the fact that their text has been translated for them. For example, the Ten Commandments vs ten devarim. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in meanings.

ITs funny how many people dont realize that the text was originally formulated for chanting, and that the cadence and rhythm dictated the syntax. You miss ALL of that when you read it in English in "Bible Study", where it becomes a dry document.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66603 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it reinforces my point. Note ..."study of ideas, set of ideas". Thats essentially a mental activity.
Religion - how man answers his perception of Gods calling. Or Mans search for God. etc etc
Note- that is behavior.
Have nothing against Unitarians. Just a comment. They prioritize discussions, analysis.
I think you agreed that god is man-made.

Where did man make him? Yes, in his brain.
(Not in the organ that pumps our blood around.)

This makes it a mental activity by definition.

Behavior is normally something one does. I guess by that,
thinking is a behavior, or creating.

Sorry to take all the fun out of it.

I was only kidding about Unitarians.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66604 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
There were different degrees of Nazism. Some were believers, some were just followers. But dont discount the believers.
I would never discount believers.

But all know that believing something doesn't make it true.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66605 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
To quote A.J. Heschel..."For religion is more than a creed or ideology and can not be understood detached from living."
also.."The Bible does not intend to teach us principles of creation or redemption. It came to teach us that God is alive, that he is creator and redeemer..the concern of philosophy is to analyze or to explain, the concern of religion is to purify and to sanctify...Speculation (philosophy) starts with concepts, Biblical religion starts with events. The life of religion is given not in the mental preservation of ideas but in events and insights..."
I think what is confusing you is not religion, but theology. Theology is a type of philosophy. Interestingly, one has to DERIVE theology from the bible (OT), because the emphasis and style of the text is via narrative.
Theology is the study of religion.

Fuzzy language can lead to fuzzy thinking.

And of course vice versa.

No need to overthink it, lest one become confused.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66606 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it was COR, a long time ago, who coined the label "fundie", and I adopted it.
I have no problem with the term.

See how many times I've used it here.

I have a problem with it being used as a straw man or red herring when some of us are speaking of religion in general. Not this one group you keep wanting to bring it back to.

But I believe you understand that.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66607 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
Frijoles
Would you agree that religion is man-made? Yours?
What is the difference between religion and philosophy?
rabbee: joelosophy, because his name ain't phil.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66608 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats the part most seculars and those with an individualist Christian background dont get. Its the exact OPPOSITE to how they understand religion.
<quoted text>
Read books by Jack Kornfield and John Kabat Zinn- they are tailored to pain
More importantly, find a teacher. Sometimes when you start this work, its gets worse and a guide is useful.
I might do that.
But after reading wiki and following some blue words i decided to let it come my way without too much intellectualizing. Though books can change ones life..

I've been provided a nurse and will get a trainer though all are new at it. Which is an excellent position if think. None are taking themselves too serious.

A leap of faith so to say.
I seriously doubt any benefit but for some more acceptance of the chronic pain position.
Usually i have to explain and people do not get it even though they decide about meds a.s.o..
That is a lousy position to be in.
Accepting would mean to not experience it as such, which should make life less of a struggle in that respect. Stress-resistance so to say.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66609 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you agreed that god is man-made.
Where did man make him? Yes, in his brain.
(Not in the organ that pumps our blood around.)
This makes it a mental activity by definition.
Behavior is normally something one does. I guess by that,
thinking is a behavior, or creating.
Sorry to take all the fun out of it.
I was only kidding about Unitarians.
I never agreed that god was man-made. I said religion is mans response to his perception of God.

I am not a theist, as you know, I am more of a panentheist. But I also understand that the human condition is such that many people feel the need to pray, and to pray you need an "other". So you create a model other. But I see that as an imperfect (but necessary), allusion to something else.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66610 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Behavior is normally something one does. I guess by that,
thinking is a behavior, or creating.
Sorry to take all the fun out of it.
I was only kidding about Unitarians.
So philosophy becomes a branch of religion?

I would almost agree with that.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66611 Jan 30, 2014
The Prophet presents a ten-point program of "Behavior Modification Therapy" .

There are countless ways to look at judaism and the book.
http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/haftarot/deva...

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66612 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Much of it can be explained by the literal approach, combined with a trust of oral education.
And combined with the fact that their text has been translated for them. For example, the Ten Commandments vs ten devarim. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in meanings.
ITs funny how many people dont realize that the text was originally formulated for chanting, and that the cadence and rhythm dictated the syntax. You miss ALL of that when you read it in English in "Bible Study", where it becomes a dry document.
quote:
[...]
It is chanted to the same haunting melody as is “Megilat Eichah,” the Scroll of Lamentations written by the Prophet Yirmiyahu, who was an “eye-witness” to the Destruction. Yeshayahu was an “eye-witness” as well, but only in the mind’s eye of his prophetic vision. In the external reality, it hadn’t yet happened. It still could have been averted, if only the People would have repented.[...]

(Here there is an important transition in meaning, marked by a transition in the way the Haftarah is chanted, from the melody of Eichah to the normal Haftarah melody)
---

And the commen sense usually lacking in christian exposees:

quote:
A question arises:

This is supposed to be a "Haftarah of Punishment." Why is it that we stop on a positive note? After all, the very next verse in Yeshayahu, not included in the Haftarah, returns to the theme of punishment!

The answer may be that even in a "Haftarah of Punishment," CHAZAL did not want to emphasize the punishment aspect or rather, they didn't want "punishment" to have the last word. For if so, what would be the purpose of the whole exercise?

If the Symphony of the History of Israel would not end on a note of triumph, what would have been the purpose of the composition? Rather, the purpose of "Puranut," of Divine Punishment itself, is "Nechama," Consolation. Just as the punishment administered by a parent to a child is meant for the improvement of the child, the punishment of our People should be seen as an attempt by "Avinu She-BaShamayim," Our Father in Heaven, to improve us and move us along the Path to the Coming of the Mashiach.

Rabbi Pinchas Frankel
end quote.

(Though i Always wonder about the aramaic father in heaven part. Since i've come to read that as Baal. Just me and ANE history)

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66613 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never agreed that god was man-made. I said religion is mans response to his perception of God.
I am not a theist, as you know, I am more of a panentheist. But I also understand that the human condition is such that many people feel the need to pray, and to pray you need an "other". So you create a model other. But I see that as an imperfect (but necessary), allusion to something else.
Do you agree that no one knows anything about our creator, or even that we have one?

It is possible we were formed by a series of chemical reactions and that there is no single actual creator.

The god concept (perception of god) was created by whom? Man? Who else?

Man created something (god) and then created his response to it - all religion I submit.

So I ask again, did man create god? If not, who did?

“If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated."

&#8213; Voltaire
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66614 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
So philosophy becomes a branch of religion?
I would almost agree with that.
re·li·gion noun \ri-&#712;li-j&#601;n\

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

The definition seems to center around god. So it's a bit restrictive to cover philosophy in general.

But it's an interesting question. Also, do you consider yourself religious? If someone came up and asked you that, my guess is you'd say yes.

But you say you don't necessarily believe in god, so I don't know.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66615 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never agreed that god was man-made. I said religion is mans response to his perception of God.
I am not a theist, as you know, I am more of a panentheist. But I also understand that the human condition is such that many people feel the need to pray, and to pray you need an "other". So you create a model other. But I see that as an imperfect (but necessary), allusion to something else.
thanks (the) lovely morning...would solve that one.

More a question of grammar.

That the lovely morning is part and package of the concept i take for granted.

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