Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Eric

Elk Grove Village, IL

#59783 Oct 7, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Damn, I should have read ahead before posting the same thing.
He needs to hear it twice. Maybe it will sink thru his thick skull
Eric

Elk Grove Village, IL

#59784 Oct 7, 2013
HughBe wrote:
Post 59476

It is of NATIONAL interest as well as interest in the US and elsewhere.
(CNN coverage of his death, BBC and others CONFIRM the above)
There is a big difference between influence and notoriety.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59786 Oct 7, 2013
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a big difference between influence and notoriety.
Eric---There is a big difference between influence and notoriety.

HughBe--- Correct, Eric. What ALL of you fellows are not getting is the difference between INFLUENCE and CONTROL.

I suppose that in the minds of you and your bedfellows All 3 events below occurred because Yosef had notoriety but not influence.

1."UNPRECEDENTED procession for an INFLUENTIAL figure"

2. " "LARGEST of funerals ever in Israel"

3. " President Shimon Peres to CUT SHORT A WORKING MEETING with his Czech counterpart Milos Zeman and rush to the rabbi's(Yosef's) bedside"

----------

By the way Eric are you linking notoriety to Jewish history?

I ask because you speak in terms of notoriety whereas the President spoke in terms of History.

"I held his hand which was still warm and kissed his forehead. When I pressed his hand I felt I was touching HISTORY and when I kissed his head it was as though I kissed the very greatness of Israel
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59787 Oct 7, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
(Smiles)
Hugh---Rule of thumb take me at my word, unless I am joking.

Joel---(Smiles)

Hugh--- Clever boy, are we?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59788 Oct 7, 2013
nutjobs here wrote:
Rav Ovadia Yossef was the spiritual leader of Shas a Sephardi Religious political party in Israel.
He was a known figure in Israel either for his leadership or sometimes crazy comments.
I grew up Orthodox Ashkenas and he had no influence at all on my community nor 99% of the similar ones inside or outside Israel. I do have Sephardi friends who continuously voted for his party and followed his words closely.
His party voted for the Oslo Accord which led to thousands of Israeli civilian murders.
While he was a well known figure inside Israel, outside the country the majority probably have not heard his name before. Most Jews in the world are not orthodox and most Jews out of Israel have no real connection to the religion.
Not sure what this whole argument here seems to be about but noone can doubt that he is considered one of the greatest Rabbis of our time.
Nutjobs here--Most Jews in the world are not orthodox and most Jews out of Israel have no real connection to the religion.

HughBe--- The important point to note is that "most Jews out of Israel have NO real CONNECTION to the RELIGION." and this is KEY.

The fellows here use percentages to try and mislead. The truth is they are fooling only themselves.

Nutjobs here--Not sure what this whole argument here seems to be about but noone can doubt that he is considered one of the greatest Rabbis of our time.

HughBe--- I find your words CONFLICTING, Nutjobs.

How can you say that "noone can doubt that he is considered ONE of the GREATEST rabbis of our time" when MANY have NEVER heard of him?

If I have NEVER heard of someone I could NEVER be in a position to BELIEVE anything about him or her.

Finally, recall your words that conflict with the above--"outside the country the majority probably have NOT heard his name before"

So how could they consider Yosef a GREAT rabbi?
Eric

Elk Grove Village, IL

#59789 Oct 7, 2013
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Eric---There is a big difference between influence and notoriety.
HughBe--- Correct, Eric. What ALL of you fellows are not getting is the difference between INFLUENCE and CONTROL.
I suppose that in the minds of you and your bedfellows All 3 events below occurred because Yosef had notoriety but not influence.
1."UNPRECEDENTED procession for an INFLUENTIAL figure"
2. " "LARGEST of funerals ever in Israel"
3. " President Shimon Peres to CUT SHORT A WORKING MEETING with his Czech counterpart Milos Zeman and rush to the rabbi's(Yosef's) bedside"
----------
By the way Eric are you linking notoriety to Jewish history?
I ask because you speak in terms of notoriety whereas the President spoke in terms of History.
"I held his hand which was still warm and kissed his forehead. When I pressed his hand I felt I was touching HISTORY and when I kissed his head it was as though I kissed the very greatness of Israel
Israeli President, right. Keep on proving my point.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59790 Oct 7, 2013
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Israeli President, right. Keep on proving my point.
Let me try you with a very simple question.

Is there any form of networking between Judaism's Sephardic members in the US and those in Israel?

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#59791 Oct 7, 2013
Now that we get to nominate for any group who is and who isn't their most influential leaders.

I have decided that Fred Phelps is the most influential Xtian leader of our time.

I will just assume that all Xtians revere Mr Phelps and hang upon his every word.
nutjobs here

Kfar Saba, Israel

#59792 Oct 7, 2013
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Nutjobs here--Most Jews in the world are not orthodox and most Jews out of Israel have no real connection to the religion.
HughBe--- The important point to note is that "most Jews out of Israel have NO real CONNECTION to the RELIGION." and this is KEY.
The fellows here use percentages to try and mislead. The truth is they are fooling only themselves.
Nutjobs here--Not sure what this whole argument here seems to be about but noone can doubt that he is considered one of the greatest Rabbis of our time.
HughBe--- I find your words CONFLICTING, Nutjobs.
How can you say that "noone can doubt that he is considered ONE of the GREATEST rabbis of our time" when MANY have NEVER heard of him?
If I have NEVER heard of someone I could NEVER be in a position to BELIEVE anything about him or her.
Finally, recall your words that conflict with the above--"outside the country the majority probably have NOT heard his name before"
So how could they consider Yosef a GREAT rabbi?
I am speaking from an objective position. I don't really care what people think of him or about religion in general. I was just trying to explain my experience of him in different times of my life and how he is seen in the Orthodox Community which is a small minority of the Jewish population worldwide.

I should have said Jews outside of Israel have no real connection to the religious side to Judaism. He was one of the foremost Rabbis of my lifetime this doesn't mean that those outside the orthodox community would know who he is.

Wonder how many American Jews would be able to tell you who the Chief Rabbis of Israel are. They could probably only name the well known Reform Rabbis in the US.

I never said it was Jews outside Israel who consider him as such but At least those in Israel if not in the Orthodox world.

Again the Majority of Jews in the world have no connection to orthodoxy or Rabbis in general so this doesn't mean much.

I have major Rabbis in my family and i couldn't even tell you their names. This is the point if you are not inside the community you may never hear these names even if they are well known.

As for influence IMO he didn't have much but maybe I am wrong.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59793 Oct 7, 2013
Rick Moss wrote:
Now that we get to nominate for any group who is and who isn't their most influential leaders.
I have decided that Fred Phelps is the most influential Xtian leader of our time.
I will just assume that all Xtians revere Mr Phelps and hang upon his every word.
Son, I am somewhat disappointed in you because you have missed the point i.e. Yosef was not nominated by ME but by your fellow Judahites and by Jews who are secular and who have the intelligence to understand the INFLUENCE of the man.

When your rabbi dies I look forward to reading about the over 700,000 mourners within hours of his death.

I look forward to the PRESIDENT of the US leaving a meeting with another President to go stand by his bedside.

Regards.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59794 Oct 7, 2013
nutjobs here wrote:
<quoted text>
I am speaking from an objective position. I don't really care what people think of him or about religion in general. I was just trying to explain my experience of him in different times of my life and how he is seen in the Orthodox Community which is a small minority of the Jewish population worldwide.
I should have said Jews outside of Israel have no real connection to the religious side to Judaism. He was one of the foremost Rabbis of my lifetime this doesn't mean that those outside the orthodox community would know who he is.
Wonder how many American Jews would be able to tell you who the Chief Rabbis of Israel are. They could probably only name the well known Reform Rabbis in the US.
I never said it was Jews outside Israel who consider him as such but At least those in Israel if not in the Orthodox world.
Again the Majority of Jews in the world have no connection to orthodoxy or Rabbis in general so this doesn't mean much.
I have major Rabbis in my family and i couldn't even tell you their names. This is the point if you are not inside the community you may never hear these names even if they are well known.
As for influence IMO he didn't have much but maybe I am wrong.
Nutjobs---I am speaking from an objective position.

HughBe-- Good, so let us see.

Nutjobs---how he is seen in the Orthodox Community which is a small minority of the Jewish population worldwide.

HughBe--- His INFLUENCE extends beyond the Orthodox community as is supported by my previous quotes. It is nice to say that the Orthodox community is a SMALL minority of the Jewish population.

Now let us compare like with like. Tell me which is the LARGEST sect of Judaism and give me its percentage in terms of Jews worldwide.

Nutjobs--I should have said Jews outside of Israel have no real connection to the religious side to Judaism.

HughBe--- It was understood. I must add that within Israel there is a very LARGE secular population. Did you know this? How large is it?

Nutjobs---He was one of the foremost Rabbis of my lifetime this doesn't mean that those outside the orthodox community would know who he is.

HughBe--- I find your words very strange and they seem to lack objectivity, to me.

Nutjobs---Wonder how many American Jews would be able to tell you who the Chief Rabbis of Israel are. They could probably only name the well known Reform Rabbis in the US.

HughBe--- In speaking you need to desist from grouping people with RELIGIOUS interest be it Judaism or Eastern religions with those who are SECULAR and atheists. When you do this you will get a better understanding of the subject. Put it this way, a person who does not believe in ANY god will not care who the RELIGIOUS leader is of any sect of Judaism.

Nutjobs--Again the Majority of Jews in the world have no connection to orthodoxy or Rabbis in GENERAL so this doesn't mean much.

HughBe--- No connection to rabbis in GENERAL is a KEY point and you need to make the link to your earlier point and when you do you will realize that it was meaningless.

Put it this way, when you said that "the Orthodox Community which is a SMALL minority of the Jewish population worldwide." you need to LINK it to your own words i.e. "Majority of Jews in the world have no connection to orthodoxy or Rabbis in GENERAL ". Logic says if the MAJORITY have no connections to religion via rabbis then any sect of Judaism could also be described as being SMALL.

Nutjobs---As for influence IMO he didn't have much but maybe I am wrong.

HughBe--- Follow the news and you shall see that you are WRONG. It is late her and so take care.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59795 Oct 7, 2013
nutjobs here wrote:
<quoted text>
I am speaking from an objective position. I don't really care what people think of him or about religion in general. I was just trying to explain my experience of him in different times of my life and how he is seen in the Orthodox Community which is a small minority of the Jewish population worldwide.
I should have said Jews outside of Israel have no real connection to the religious side to Judaism. He was one of the foremost Rabbis of my lifetime this doesn't mean that those outside the orthodox community would know who he is.
Wonder how many American Jews would be able to tell you who the Chief Rabbis of Israel are. They could probably only name the well known Reform Rabbis in the US.
I never said it was Jews outside Israel who consider him as such but At least those in Israel if not in the Orthodox world.
Again the Majority of Jews in the world have no connection to orthodoxy or Rabbis in general so this doesn't mean much.
I have major Rabbis in my family and i couldn't even tell you their names. This is the point if you are not inside the community you may never hear these names even if they are well known.
As for influence IMO he didn't have much but maybe I am wrong.
Perhaps you missed the quote below and even if you did not you should think about it.

"He(Yosef) is considered by his followers – directly, ultra-Orthodox Sephardic public, and INDIRECTLY, the WIDER religious society – as a master sage, or Maran, and the generation’s GREATEST authority on religious law.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#59796 Oct 7, 2013
nutjobs here wrote:
<quoted text>
I am speaking from an objective position. I don't really care what people think of him or about religion in general. I was just trying to explain my experience of him in different times of my life and how he is seen in the Orthodox Community which is a small minority of the Jewish population worldwide.
I should have said Jews outside of Israel have no real connection to the religious side to Judaism. He was one of the foremost Rabbis of my lifetime this doesn't mean that those outside the orthodox community would know who he is.
Wonder how many American Jews would be able to tell you who the Chief Rabbis of Israel are. They could probably only name the well known Reform Rabbis in the US.
I never said it was Jews outside Israel who consider him as such but At least those in Israel if not in the Orthodox world.
Again the Majority of Jews in the world have no connection to orthodoxy or Rabbis in general so this doesn't mean much.
I have major Rabbis in my family and i couldn't even tell you their names. This is the point if you are not inside the community you may never hear these names even if they are well known.
As for influence IMO he didn't have much but maybe I am wrong.
Nutjobs---As for influence IMO he didn't have much but maybe I am wrong.

HughBe--- You are WRONG as the quotes below speak of GREAT INFLUENCE.

Good night.

1."UNPRECEDENTED procession for an INFLUENTIAL figure"

2. " "LARGEST of funerals ever in Israel"

3. " President Shimon Peres to CUT SHORT A WORKING MEETING with his Czech counterpart Milos Zeman and rush to the rabbi's(Yosef's) bedside"

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59797 Oct 8, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
The best way to do it would be to eliminate insurance companies and let the free market take over.
No argument there. But the repubs refused to allow that, or single payer, which is basically the same thing. One of our Drs is going off insurance and claims it will be cheaper for us. He might be right.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59798 Oct 8, 2013
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>

Hugh---Rule of thumb take me at my word, unless I am joking.

Joel---(Smiles)

Hugh--- Clever boy, are we?
You're stupid.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59799 Oct 8, 2013
Wow, 3 1/2 pages of Hughbe arguing the same idiocy.

And we even have an Israeli saying the same thing that I and others were saying from day 1.

Hughbe, really.....

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#59800 Oct 8, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
Wow, 3 1/2 pages of Hughbe arguing the same idiocy.
And we even have an Israeli saying the same thing that I and others were saying from day 1.
Hughbe, really.....
Since when has being ridiculously wrong stopped people from spouting off? Need examples?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59801 Oct 8, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
So, is citrate different from citric acid or is citrate a derivative of citric acid?
Or is citric acid a derivative of citrate?

We are all organic.

On a related note, when people get pushy about the natural foods paradigm, I note that Arsenic is natural, too.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#59803 Oct 8, 2013
FRIJOLES, Ph.D.(Science):

When will you tell me the difference between the terms citrate and citric acid - are they different chemical substances or is one derived from the other?

(smiles)

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#59805 Oct 8, 2013
nutjobs here wrote:
<quoted text>
I should have said Jews outside of Israel have no real connection to the religious side to Judaism. He was one of the foremost Rabbis of my lifetime this doesn't mean that those outside the orthodox community would know who he is.
There are many movements (brands) of Judaism that flourish outside of Israel that are religious. The orthodox do not have a monopoly on the religious side of Judaism. Maybe their version of the halachic side of Judaism, but not the religious side. From what I have experienced personally, most orthodox shuls, in or out of Israel, are equally likely to be devoid of spirituality as any reform or conservative shul.

That all said, I agree with your other points. American Jewry is neither state sponsored nor uniformly hierarchical. Furthermore, we are overwhelmingly Ashkenazi. So the majority of us probably never heard of the rabbi in question. However, we have plenty of American and British rabbis we HAVE heard of, among all movements. But that doesnt mean we "follow" them in the way the idiot from Jamaica claims we do.

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