Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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47,401 - 47,420 of 68,838 Comments Last updated 16 hrs ago
Voluntarist

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#52814
May 19, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
"So it is not a question of contract, its the fundamental question of whether you recognize our form of government or not. So far, the vibes I get from you is that you do not. "
Do you recognize our form of gov't or not?
Our? who are you referring to?
Government doesn't exist, just a group of men and women.
Voluntarist

United States

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#52815
May 19, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you honestly say you are getting absolutely no services or value from the gov't?
Granted, they get much more for the tax dollars in Europe, but we do get something.
It's not the service that I have a problem with it is the manner by which it is paid for.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52816
May 20, 2013
 

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Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Our? who are you referring to?
Government doesn't exist, just a group of men and women.
Well, since you dont recognize our form of government, you loose the moral authority to criticize our tax system.

Because what you are in opposition isn't really our tax system but our form of government.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52817
May 20, 2013
 

Judged:

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Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not the service that I have a problem with it is the manner by which it is paid for.
Of which you do not have any authority to take issue with, being that you do not recognize our government.

Why do we have to clarify your thinking for you?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52818
May 20, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Our? who are you referring to?
Government doesn't exist, just a group of men and women.
I'll take that as a no.

Are you an American?

"Government doesn't exist" you say.

What are all those big buildings in DC?

There is no Supreme Court? Congress? Administration?

What do you mean it "doesn't exist?"
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52819
May 20, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you honestly say you are getting absolutely no services or value from the gov't?
Granted, they get much more for the tax dollars in Europe, but we do get something.
Doesn't the fact that you are getting some value in return
create an obligation on your part for compensation?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52820
May 20, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Our? who are you referring to?
Government doesn't exist, just a group of men and women.
Do you generally obey traffic laws when driving?

Why or why not?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52821
May 20, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, since you dont recognize our form of government, you loose the moral authority to criticize our tax system.
Because what you are in opposition isn't really our tax system but our form of government.
Excellent point.

It would be like me judging the inner workings of the
Catholic Church.

I have no standing. No stake. No skin in the game.

You've saved me a lot of back-and-forth going forward.
Voluntarist

United States

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#52822
May 20, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll take that as a no.
Are you an American?
"Government doesn't exist" you say.
What are all those big buildings in DC?
There is no Supreme Court? Congress? Administration?
What do you mean it "doesn't exist?"
Buildings and people, your point?
Voluntarist

United States

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#52823
May 20, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you generally obey traffic laws when driving?
Why or why not?
I don't know all of the traffic laws, do you?

I travel in a courteous manner, people stop at intersections to avoid accidents not because there are some words on paper.
Voluntarist

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#52824
May 20, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Of which you do not have any authority to take issue with, being that you do not recognize our government.
Why do we have to clarify your thinking for you?
I have authority to take issue because you are making a claim of obligation as if there is some sort on my part.
Voluntarist

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#52825
May 20, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Excellent point.
It would be like me judging the inner workings of the
Catholic Church.
I have no standing. No stake. No skin in the game.
You've saved me a lot of back-and-forth going forward.
Not true, the catholic church isn't imposing their faith on you by threatening you with a cage abducted gun.
Voluntarist

United States

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#52826
May 20, 2013
 
*& a gun

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52827
May 20, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Excellent point.
It would be like me judging the inner workings of the
Catholic Church.
I have no standing. No stake. No skin in the game.
You've saved me a lot of back-and-forth going forward.
Every so often I feel a certain level of faint satisfaction at completing a line of logic.

I hope it is not wasted.

But besides from recognizing his hypocrisy, he needs to understand what his real point of contention is, if for no other reason than to help clarify his position so as to give it some philosophic legitimacy.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#52828
May 20, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
I have authority to take issue because you are making a claim of obligation as if there is some sort on my part.
Do you vote?

If you do, thats where the obligation is. You buy into our system. Our system is a representative democracy - meaning that others make decisions for us as elected officials.

If you dont vote, then you might have a faint argument. But very faint, as you still consume our services.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52829
May 20, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Buildings and people, your point?
You stated that, "Government doesn't exist..."

What organization built and maintains these buildings?

Who are all these people on the public payroll?

Who inspects the meat you eat?

Who is requesting tax dollars from you?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52830
May 20, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know all of the traffic laws, do you?
I travel in a courteous manner, people stop at intersections to avoid accidents not because there are some words on paper.
I didn't ask if you knew ALL the traffic laws.(Mr. Straw Man..)

I asked if you generally follow them? We all had to pass an exam showing basic understanding of these laws.

Would you speed if safe but knowing PoPo with radar were in the area? Why or why not?(Example - 3 in the morning on I95 - no traffic)
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52831
May 20, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Not true, the catholic church isn't imposing their faith on you by threatening you with a cage abducted gun.
Once you agree you don't recognize the authority/existence of the Federal gov't, why does this not make the rest of the discussion moot?

Any point in our continuing this discussion?

Why or why not?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52832
May 20, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
...If you dont vote, then you might have a faint argument. But very faint, as you still consume our services.
If so, I'd like to hear the argument for not voting, esp when already complaining about a lack of valid representation.

Since: May 13

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#52833
May 20, 2013
 
A CLOSER LOOK AT NEWTON'S FIRST LAW OF MOTION:

"If the vector sum of all the forces acting on a particle is zero then and only then the particle remains unaccelerated (i.e., it remains at rest or moves with constant velocity."

..........

If the sum of all the forces on a given particle is F and its acceleration is a, then, we say:

a = 0 if and only if F = 0.

So, if the sum of the forces acting on a particle is known to be zero, we can be sure that the particle is unaccelerated, or if we know that a particle is unaccelerated, we can be sure that the sum of the forces acting on the particle is zero.

However, the concept of rest, motion or acceleration is meaningful only when a frame of reference is specified.

Let's probe this concept deeper:

An elevator falls down after the cable snaps.

The cabin and all the bodies fixed in the cabin like a ceiling lamp are accelerated with respect to the earth and this g is about + 9.8 m/s^2 in the downward direction.

Consider the lamp in the cabin.

The forces acting on the lamp are:

a) The gravitational force say W by the earth and

b) The electromagnetic force T (tension) by the rope.

The direction of W is downward and that of T is upward.

The net force (W - T) acts downward.

Now, measure the acceleration of the lamp from the frame of reference of the cabin - the lamp in it is at rest and the acceleration of the lamp is zero.

A person say A inside the lift uses Newton's First Law to conclude that the sum of the forces acting on the particle is 0,

i.e., W - T = 0, or W = T

If we measure the acceleration from the ground frame outside the falling lift, the lamp in the lift has an acceleration of 9.8 m/s^2.

Thus, a is not equal to 0.

A person say B who measured this acceleration concludes from Newton's First Law that the sum of the forces is not 0.

Thus, W - T is not equal to 0.

Or, W is not equal to T.

Now, both A and B cannot be simultaneously correct as W and T can be either equal or unequal.

So, one of the frames is bad and as such one should not apply the first law in that frame.

There are some frames of reference in which Newton's First Law is valid.

Measure acceleration from such a valid frame and we're permitted to say that a = 0 if and only if F = 0.

But, there exist other frames in which Newton's First Law is not valid.

We may find that even if the sum of the forces is not 0, the acceleration is still 0.

Or, we discover that the sum of the forces is 0, yet the particle is accelerated.

So, the validity of Newton's First Law depends on the frame of reference from which the observer measures the state of rest, motion and acceleration of the particle.

Thus, a frame of reference in which Newton's First Law is valid is called an inertial frame of reference.

A frame of reference in which Newton's First Law is invalid is called a non-inertial frame of reference.

NOTE: The First Law is also the law of inertia of which we say there are 2 kinds - inertia of rest and inertia of motion.

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