Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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47,381 - 47,400 of 68,361 Comments Last updated 10 hrs ago
Voluntarist

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#52793
May 19, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you mean YOU conclude. Other people conclude otherwise.
Private conclusion.
No, former has admitted that he pays taxes by force.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52794
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
No, former has admitted that he pays taxes by force.
I believe he said he pays them out of a sense of obligation with awareness of what might happen if he doesnt pay.

But we will let him answer that

Your world is very black and white.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52795
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
So then you can conclude that government is just a group of men and women providing a service from the barrel of a gun.
Government is the name we give those things we have decided to do together.

I can already hear your simple mind working....so....

No, not every single one of us has to agree, given the form of government we have.

This to me goes without saying. But clearly not for you.

You prefer to focus on our differences rather than our similarities. Too bad.

Government is us.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52796
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
No, former has admitted that he pays taxes by force.
I don't let it get to that point.

Do you not speed in your car due to force?

Or to keep from getting a ticket and increased insurance premiums?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52797
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
So then you can conclude that government is just a group of men and women providing a service from the barrel of a gun.
The major difference between your view and mine (and probably 98% of the rest of society) is that you feel an injustice because there is some type of implicit contract between the government and the people of which you never consented to.

Therefore, in your view, that contract is invalid (or, in your words - never a contract in the first place since it lacked articulation and/or your participation in all 4 crucial elements)

Others such as me understand that contract as a public contract, not a private contract. That is we subcontract (no pun intended) portions of the articulation AND acceptance to our agents (i.e. our elected officials and our staff (agencies such as IRS, legal system etc etc).

So it is not a question of contract, its the fundamental question of whether you recognize our form of government or not. So far, the vibes I get from you is that you do not.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52798
May 19, 2013
 

Judged:

1

Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The major difference between your view and mine (and probably 98% of the rest of society) is that you feel an injustice because there is some type of implicit contract between the government and the people of which you never consented to.
Therefore, in your view, that contract is invalid (or, in your words - never a contract in the first place since it lacked articulation and/or your participation in all 4 crucial elements)
Others such as me understand that contract as a public contract, not a private contract. That is we subcontract (no pun intended) portions of the articulation AND acceptance to our agents (i.e. our elected officials and our staff (agencies such as IRS, legal system etc etc).
So it is not a question of contract, its the fundamental question of whether you recognize our form of government or not. So far, the vibes I get from you is that you do not.
Not unlike nice folks like Timothy McVeigh.

He isn't with us anymore.

Ted Kaczynski seemed a smart fellow but felt an "otherness" and
preferred to live off the grid and to march to his own drummer.

Many of these folks also seem to hold a lot of resentment against society, the government, technology, whatever.

Reminds of a quote from "The Wild One" (1953) with Marlin Brando:

Mildred: Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?

Johnny: Whadda you got?
Voluntarist

United States

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#52800
May 19, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe he said he pays them out of a sense of obligation with awareness of what might happen if he doesnt pay.
But we will let him answer that
Your world is very black and white.
Says nothing here about obligation;

former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing new if you've been paying
attention.
I've repeatedly made reference to the force
of law and negative consequences of failing
to pay one's tax bill.

"awareness of what might happen", is the gun that I as referring to.
Voluntarist

United States

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#52801
May 19, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Not unlike nice folks like Timothy McVeigh.
He isn't with us anymore.
Ted Kaczynski seemed a smart fellow but felt an "otherness" and
preferred to live off the grid and to march to his own drummer.
Many of these folks also seem to hold a lot of resentment against society, the government, technology, whatever.
Reminds of a quote from "The Wild One" (1953) with Marlin Brando:
Mildred: Hey Johnny, what are you rebelling against?
Johnny: Whadda you got?
A considerable amount of credible circumstantial evidence
suggests that Theodore Kaczynski , also known as the Unabomber,
participated in CIA-sponsored MKUltra experiments conducted at
Harvard University from the fall of 1959 through the spring of
1962.[75] During World War II, Henry Murray, the lead researcher
in the Harvard experiments, served with the Office of Strategic
Services (OSS), which was a forerunner of the CIA. Murray applied
for a grant funded by the United States Navy , and his Harvard
stress experiments strongly resembled those run by the OSS.[75]
Beginning at the age of sixteen, Kaczynski participated along with
twenty-one other undergraduate students in the Harvard
experiments, which have been described as "disturbing" and
"ethically indefensible." [75][76]
Merry Prankster Ken Kesey, author of One Flew Over the
Cuckoo's Nest, volunteered for MKUltra experiments involving LSD
and other psychedelic drugs at the Veterans Administration
Hospital in Menlo Park while he was a student at nearby Stanford
University . Kesey's experiences while under the influence of LSD
inspired him to promote the drug outside the context of the
MKUltra experiments, which influenced the early development of
hippie culture.[77][78]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltr...
Voluntarist

United States

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#52802
May 19, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The major difference between your view and mine (and probably 98% of the rest of society) is that you feel an injustice because there is some type of implicit contract between the government and the people of which you never consented to.
Therefore, in your view, that contract is invalid (or, in your words - never a contract in the first place since it lacked articulation and/or your participation in all 4 crucial elements)
Others such as me understand that contract as a public contract, not a private contract. That is we subcontract (no pun intended) portions of the articulation AND acceptance to our agents (i.e. our elected officials and our staff (agencies such as IRS, legal system etc etc).
So it is not a question of contract, its the fundamental question of whether you recognize our form of government or not. So far, the vibes I get from you is that you do not.
So in other words it's not based on any factual evidence, it's faith in government.
If you want to live that way that's fine with me, it's when you force others into your faith that I have a problem with.
Voluntarist

United States

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#52803
May 19, 2013
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't let it get to that point.
Do you not speed in your car due to force?
Or to keep from getting a ticket and increased insurance premiums?
You don't let it get to that point but you know that the gun is there.

Define speed?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52804
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
So in other words it's not based on any factual evidence, it's faith in government.
If you want to live that way that's fine with me, it's when you force others into your faith that I have a problem with.
You are the only one here who defines the paradigm as faith in the illusory.

To the rest of us Joes, there is nothing illusory. There is also no boogieman.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52805
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
A considerable amount of credible circumstantial evidence
suggests that Theodore Kaczynski , also known as the Unabomber,
participated in CIA-sponsored MKUltra experiments conducted at
Harvard University from the fall of 1959 through the spring of
1962.[75] During World War II, Henry Murray, the lead researcher
in the Harvard experiments, served with the Office of Strategic
Services (OSS), which was a forerunner of the CIA. Murray applied
for a grant funded by the United States Navy , and his Harvard
stress experiments strongly resembled those run by the OSS.[75]
Beginning at the age of sixteen, Kaczynski participated along with
twenty-one other undergraduate students in the Harvard
experiments, which have been described as "disturbing" and
"ethically indefensible." [75][76]
Merry Prankster Ken Kesey, author of One Flew Over the
Cuckoo's Nest, volunteered for MKUltra experiments involving LSD
and other psychedelic drugs at the Veterans Administration
Hospital in Menlo Park while he was a student at nearby Stanford
University . Kesey's experiences while under the influence of LSD
inspired him to promote the drug outside the context of the
MKUltra experiments, which influenced the early development of
hippie culture.[77][78]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltr...
My response:

Cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo..
Voluntarist

United States

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#52806
May 19, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You are the only one here who defines the paradigm as faith in the illusory.
To the rest of us Joes, there is nothing illusory. There is also no boogieman.
If you have faith in an obligation which is not there you are just running on faith dear.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#52807
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
If you have faith in an obligation which is not there you are just running on faith dear.
Tilting at windmills as usual

You need to broaden your concerns to issues that actually exist.
Voluntarist

United States

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#52808
May 19, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Tilting at windmills as usual
You need to broaden your concerns to issues that actually exist.
Oh it is a real issue because people are being imprisoned for victimless crime everyday leading to over crowded prisons and real violent offenders released.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52809
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Says nothing here about obligation;
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing new if you've been paying
attention.
I've repeatedly made reference to the force
of law and negative consequences of failing
to pay one's tax bill.
"awareness of what might happen", is the gun that I as referring to.
Where here do I state this an all-inclusive/exhaustive list of my reasons for paying my taxes?

I've cited other reasons before and my willingness to pay my obligations.

I don't feel as though I'm doing so under duress.

The feeling I get after filing every year is one of relief for having yet again finished up such an unpleasant task. That refers to the calculations and date entry more than sending the actual funds.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52810
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
A considerable amount of credible circumstantial evidence
suggests that Theodore Kaczynski , also known as the Unabomber,
participated in CIA-sponsored MKUltra experiments conducted at
Harvard University from the fall of 1959 through the spring of
1962.[75] During World War II, Henry Murray, the lead researcher
in the Harvard experiments, served with the Office of Strategic
Services (OSS), which was a forerunner of the CIA. Murray applied
for a grant funded by the United States Navy , and his Harvard
stress experiments strongly resembled those run by the OSS.[75]
Beginning at the age of sixteen, Kaczynski participated along with
twenty-one other undergraduate students in the Harvard
experiments, which have been described as "disturbing" and
"ethically indefensible." [75][76]
Merry Prankster Ken Kesey, author of One Flew Over the
Cuckoo's Nest, volunteered for MKUltra experiments involving LSD
and other psychedelic drugs at the Veterans Administration
Hospital in Menlo Park while he was a student at nearby Stanford
University . Kesey's experiences while under the influence of LSD
inspired him to promote the drug outside the context of the
MKUltra experiments, which influenced the early development of
hippie culture.[77][78]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltr...
The list is very long of the bad things we've done to one another.

Man's inhumanity to man
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52811
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
So in other words it's not based on any factual evidence, it's faith in government.
If you want to live that way that's fine with me, it's when you force others into your faith that I have a problem with.
"So it is not a question of contract, its the fundamental question of whether you recognize our form of government or not. So far, the vibes I get from you is that you do not. "

Do you recognize our form of gov't or not?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52812
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't let it get to that point but you know that the gun is there.
Define speed?
Do you generally obey traffic laws when driving?

Why or why not?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#52813
May 19, 2013
 
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
If you have faith in an obligation which is not there you are just running on faith dear.
Can you honestly say you are getting absolutely no services or value from the gov't?

Granted, they get much more for the tax dollars in Europe, but we do get something.

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