Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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45,941 - 45,960 of 69,014 Comments Last updated 1 hr ago
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51253 Apr 28, 2013
"A symbol expresses not the play of abstract things or ideas put into imaged form but a living Truth or inward vision or experience of things, so inward, so subtle, so little belonging to the domain of intellectual abstraction, and precision that it cannot be brought out except through symbolic images — the more these images have a living truth of their own which corresponds intimately to the living truth they symbolize, suggests the very vibration of the experience itself, the greater becomes the art of the symbolic expres­sion. When the symbol is a representative sign or figure and nothing more, then the symbolic approaches nearer to an intellectual method, though even then it is not the same thing as an allegory."

- Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51254 Apr 28, 2013
"Consciousness is usually identified with mind, but mental consciousness is only the human range which no more exhausts all the possible ranges of consciousness than human sight exhausts all the gradations of color or human hearing all the gradations of sound — for there is much above or below that is to man invisible and inaudible. So there are ranges of consciousness above and below the human range, with which the normal human [consciousness] has no contact and they seem to it unconscious...."

- Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine, p.233.

JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51255 Apr 28, 2013
“If you have within you a psychic being sufficiently awake to watch over you, to prepare your path, it can draw towards you things which help you, draw people, books, circumstances, all sorts of little coincidences which come to you as though brought by some benevolent will and give you an indication, a help, a support to take decisions and turn you in the right direction.”

- The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's Jewish spiritual collaborator).
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51256 Apr 28, 2013
” One may try to find out what is the truest thing to do, but it is not by a mental discussion or a mental problem that these things can be resolved. Is is in fact by an inner attitude which creates an atmosphere of harmony – progressive harmony – in which all one does will necessarily be the best thing that could be done in those particular circumstances. And the ideal would be an attitude complete enough for the action to be spontaneous, dictated by something other than an outer reason.”

- The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's Jewish spiritual collaborator).
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51257 Apr 28, 2013
"An aimless life is always a miserable life. Every one of you should have an aim. But do not forget that on the quality of your aim will depend the quality of your life. Your aim should be high and wide, generous and disinterested; this will make your life precious to yourself and to others. But whatever your ideal, it cannot be perfectly realized unless you have realized perfection in yourself."

- The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's Jewish spiritual collaborator).

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51258 Apr 28, 2013
JOEL wrote:
Had my parents been alive and had they seen my present damaged condition they'd have wept and taken forthwith action and knowing them they'd quickly pack me off to grad school in the US hoping that it would serve as a balm to my damaged mind, emotions and nerves. My late sister, Tina, who'd studied at Cathedral and then at Cornell in the US would have also made the same suggestion. Now, there's no one to goad me on in such a persistent manner.
At some point we all have to grow up and take responsibility and direction in our lives, and not rely on others to do so for us.

Now is your moment.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51259 Apr 28, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, you are using the modern standard.
You need to consider that standards are relative.
I think we're saying the same thing.

Standards are relative for sure. One man's evidence is another man's ancient literature.

But I don't agree it's a modern vs. ancient thing. If one TODAY believes in a body of evidence based on ancient scrolls and scripture, he is holding that evidence to his standards of TODAY.

One cannot in my mind say that he is held to standards of a by-gone era if it's a belief system he subscribes to in the here and now.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51260 Apr 28, 2013
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/28/dont_stop_bel...

Don’t stop believin’: Do atheists need a church?
There's song and fellowship in London's first atheist church.

But are these non-believers just having it both ways?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51261 Apr 28, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I think we're saying the same thing.
Standards are relative for sure. One man's evidence is another man's ancient literature.
But I don't agree it's a modern vs. ancient thing. If one TODAY believes in a body of evidence based on ancient scrolls and scripture, he is holding that evidence to his standards of TODAY.
One cannot in my mind say that he is held to standards of a by-gone era if it's a belief system he subscribes to in the here and now.
I disagree. Religion is a subculture and as so has its own rules and standards, and internal logic which is based upon that.

Even in the modern era there are more than one systems of standards. Scientific definition of evidence is very different from the legal definition.

Just like legal evidentiary standards and definitions of what is evidence are different from scientific standards and definitions of evidence, some organized religions can define on their own what is considered evidence and what is not, and what the standards for evaluating are.

The problem is when they apply their standards to your world, and vice versa. That is what you are getting at. You dont buy their definition, and they shouldnt assume that you should. But among themselves, they have an internal logic.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51262 Apr 28, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. Religion is a subculture and as so has its own rules and standards, and internal logic which is based upon that.
Even in the modern era there are more than one systems of standards. Scientific definition of evidence is very different from the legal definition.
Just like legal evidentiary standards and definitions of what is evidence are different from scientific standards and definitions of evidence, some organized religions can define on their own what is considered evidence and what is not, and what the standards for evaluating are.
The problem is when they apply their standards to your world, and vice versa. That is what you are getting at. You dont buy their definition, and they shouldnt assume that you should. But among themselves, they have an internal logic.
The ATF crowd might say the same thing.

You don't buy their theories, but to them it makes sense.

You say they ignore evidence. But they simply find their evidence more compelling.

And atheists say believers have zero evidence on which to base their beliefs.

You then say that "evidence" in religion means something else. It has do with feelings and experience. That it depends on whose "world" we are talking about at the time.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51263 Apr 28, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The ATF crowd might say the same thing.
You don't buy their theories, but to them it makes sense.
You say they ignore evidence. But they simply find their evidence more compelling.
absoultely .
They have different standards for evaluating evidence. ANti-Scientific (ignore the contrary evidence). However, they make the mistake of assuming we are using the same system (applying their standards to our modern standards).
former res wrote:
<quoted text>And atheists say believers have zero evidence on which to base their beliefs.
You then say that "evidence" in religion means something else. It has do with feelings and experience. That it depends on whose "world" we are talking about at the time.
The atheists make the SAME mistake by evaluating the religious evidence with modern standards, and assuming that is relevent to the religious. It isnt.

And SOME of the religious compound that by encouraging the atheists as so.

Others just ignore the atheists as being irrelevant.

You got it!
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#51264 Apr 28, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The ATF crowd might say the same thing.
You don't buy their theories, but to them it makes sense.
You say they ignore evidence. But they simply find their evidence more compelling.
And atheists say believers have zero evidence on which to base their beliefs.
You then say that "evidence" in religion means something else. It has do with feelings and experience. That it depends on whose "world" we are talking about at the time.
rabbee: and just what, religious function does the atf serve? and why would anyone expect them, to accept anyone elses religion. they have their own cause, and their own religious laws and bible. their just another religion, that thinks they are the only true church.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#51265 Apr 28, 2013
maybe you should pray, that the fbi religion. does not take such an interest in yours, that they investigate it. cause their bible is a lot bigger, and has more authority and laws than all of yours.

in fact if there were as many real believers in G-D, as there are in the fbi. we would not have any problems in this nation.
The Advocate

Mexico, Mexico

#51266 Apr 28, 2013
JOEL wrote:
Those who outright dismiss every conspiracy as a product of imagination without proper thought or investigation and who accept as truth the official version of events are braindead and superficial individuals.
Unless you consider how legitimately impossible and insane some proposed theories are, and why so many people people waste their time giving a damn over things like Area 51 and whatnot.
Voluntarist

United States

#51267 Apr 28, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. Religion is a subculture and as so has its own rules and standards, and internal logic which is based upon that.
Even in the modern era there are more than one systems of standards. Scientific definition of evidence is very different from the legal definition.
Just like legal evidentiary standards and definitions of what is evidence are different from scientific standards and definitions of evidence, some organized religions can define on their own what is considered evidence and what is not, and what the standards for evaluating are.
The problem is when they apply their standards to your world, and vice versa. That is what you are getting at. You dont buy their definition, and they shouldnt assume that you should. But among themselves, they have an internal logic.
Modern law is rooted in mosaic law.
Voluntarist

United States

#51268 Apr 28, 2013
The Advocate wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless you consider how legitimately impossible and insane some proposed theories are, and why so many people people waste their time giving a damn over things like Area 51 and whatnot.
Lol i would hardly call area 51 an event, ufo chasers dont believe for a second that experimental military aircraft is over head, that is foolish not to consider.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51269 Apr 28, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
absoultely .
They have different standards for evaluating evidence. ANti-Scientific (ignore the contrary evidence). However, they make the mistake of assuming we are using the same system (applying their standards to our modern standards).
It seems that all the "mistakes" are being made by everyone else: the ATF-types, the atheists. Interesting way of looking at the world. We are all wrong and you're right.(Do you know my wife?!:))

"Anti-scientific" you say. Pot meet kettle.

The 9/11 conspiracy crowd are very much into science (and engineering). Perhaps you haven't looked at any of their evidence.

I would argue they are much closer to the truth than the religious crowd. They are at least in the realm of reality.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The atheists make the SAME mistake by evaluating the religious evidence with modern standards, and assuming that is relevent to the religious. It isnt.
And SOME of the religious compound that by encouraging the atheists as so.
Others just ignore the atheists as being irrelevant.
You got it!
To what religious "evidence" do you refer?

It seems as though you saying something along the lines of, "Don't bother a psychotic person with reality - that isn't relevant to him. He is by definition detached from same."

And I could certainly understand that this would all seem "irrelevant."

It must be blissful!:))
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51270 Apr 28, 2013
ATF - are you an atheist?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51271 Apr 29, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems that all the "mistakes" are being made by everyone else: the ATF-types, the atheists. Interesting way of looking at the world. We are all wrong and you're right.(Do you know my wife?!:))
"Anti-scientific" you say. Pot meet kettle.
The 9/11 conspiracy crowd are very much into science (and engineering). Perhaps you haven't looked at any of their evidence.
I would argue they are much closer to the truth than the religious crowd. They are at least in the realm of reality.)
Among the several steps in the scientific process they do not follow:

"When evidence is contradictory to predicted expectations, the evidence and the ways of making it are often closely scrutinized (see experimenter's regress) and only at the end of this process is the hypothesis rejected: this can be referred to as 'refutation of the hypothesis'."
former res wrote:
<quoted text><quoted text>
To what religious "evidence" do you refer?
It seems as though you saying something along the lines of, "Don't bother a psychotic person with reality - that isn't relevant to him. He is by definition detached from same."
And I could certainly understand that this would all seem "irrelevant."
It must be blissful!:))
documented testament, feelings, and the process of weighing credibility of such

It is blissful, obviously.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51272 Apr 29, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems that all the "mistakes" are being made by everyone else: the ATF-types, the atheists. Interesting way of looking at the world. We are all wrong and you're right.(Do you know my wife?!:))
"Anti-scientific" you say. Pot meet kettle.
The 9/11 conspiracy crowd are very much into science (and engineering). Perhaps you haven't looked at any of their evidence.
I would argue they are much closer to the truth than the religious crowd. They are at least in the realm of reality.
<quoted text>
To what religious "evidence" do you refer?
It seems as though you saying something along the lines of, "Don't bother a psychotic person with reality - that isn't relevant to him. He is by definition detached from same."
And I could certainly understand that this would all seem "irrelevant."
It must be blissful!:))
Also, in most likelihood, much of what is considered "science" within the 911 conspiracy crowd would fail the Daubert standard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daubert_test

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