Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

[JOEL]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>

That one earned a chuckle.

Yes, Papa.

[JOEL]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>

You are now in Hughbes territory again. You are advancing the use of a private vocabulary.

Thats not how anyone else, or more significantly, how Rabbi Merriam-Webster would define the term.

Ok, Papa.

No offence meant.

I was just conveying to the audience on this august forum the special meaning that I attach to the term based on yogic experiences and intellectual understanding.

[JOEL]

BEAUTY:

"Beauty is complete order. But most of us have not that sense of beauty in our lives. We may be great artists, great painters, expert in various things, but in our own daily life, with all the anxieties and miseries, we live, unfortunately, a very disordered life. It is a fact. You may be a great scientist, you may be a great expert in a subject, but you have your own problems, struggles, pain, anxieties and the rest of it. We are asking, is it possible to live in complete order within, not impose discipline, control, but to inquire into the nature of this disorder, what are the causes, and to dispel, move away, wash away the cause. Then there is a living order in the universe."

J Krishnamurti

QUESTIONS:

1) What is meant by the term beauty?

2) What is meant by order and disorder?

3) Is order the opposite of disorder? Explain.

[JOEL]

DESTROYING PAIN & SUFFERING:

"Pain itself destroys pain. Suffering itself frees man from suffering."

J Krishnamurti: The Little Book on Living

QUESTION:

Where lies the error in J Krishnamurti's analysis? Why?

[JOEL]

EMPTYING THE MIND:

"The mind has to be empty to see clearly."

J Krishnamurti: The Little Book on Living

QUESTION:

Is it possible to empty the mind? How? Is Krishnamurti correct in saying so?

[JOEL]

NATURE & RELIGION:

"When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important."

J Krishnamurti: The Little Book on Living

QUESTION:

What more can be added to his view above?

[JOEL]

THE DEVIL & ORGANIZED RELIGIONS:

"You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, "What did that man pick up?" "He picked up a piece of the truth," said the devil. "That is a very bad business for you, then," said his friend. "Oh, not at all," the devil replied, "I am going to help him organize it."

J Krishnamurti: The Little Book on Living

COMMENT:

Nice.

[JOEL]

BELIEF & FEAR:

"The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear."

J Krishnamurti

QUESTIONS:

1) When do belief and fear arise in the human being?

2) What is belief and what is fear?

[JOEL]

RELIGIONS & SHRINES:

"Religion is the frozen thought of man out of which they build temples."

J Krishnamurti

COMMENT:

Nice. The age of religion is fast coming to an end. Religion and God (a being of a plane) belong to the inferior planes of consciousness.

[JOEL]

NATURE & MURDER:

"If you lose touch with nature you lose touch with humanity. If there's no relationship with nature then you become a killer; then you kill baby seals, whales, dolphins, and man either for gain, for sport, for food, or for knowledge. Then nature is frightened of you, withdrawing its beauty. You may take long walks in the woods or camp in lovely places but you are a killer and so lose their friendship. You probably are not related to anything to your wife or your husband."

J.Krishnamurti, Krishanmurti's Journal 04 April 1975

COMMENTS:

Non-violent communication, unschooling and sound eugenic practices to procreate offspring with lofty instincts are the imperative needs of the hour at this moment of crisis in the evolution of the terrestrial nature.

[STEFANO COLONNA]

JOEL wrote:

<quoted text>
That's mere play on words.
The exclusive worship of one God (being) who wants to be the only God over and above all its rivals (other beings) is my definition of monotheism.
Personally speaking, I have sufficient direct experience of this petty stand. This is another matter, however.

No play on words.

You just need to extend your vocabulary, instead of making definitions up.

Frijoles defined monotheism, I defined monolatrism.

From the Torah we can understand that the hebrews believed each nation has its own god(s), so they have their own. At one point until this very days the Hebrews rejected and still do the idea of the existence of other god(s), becoming therefore monotheists.

[JOEL]

CAUSAL NATURE OF QUESTION & ANSWER:

"If we can really understand the problem, the answer will come out of it, because the answer is not separate from the problem."

J.Krishnamurti

COMMENTS:

1) Effect is nothing else but the cause in partial or complete manifestation.

2) An effect must be at least as great as its cause in terms of information content.

[JOEL]

THE DING AN SICH & THE QUALITIES:

"The description is not the described; I can describe the mountain, but the description is not the mountain, and if you are caught up in the description, as most people are, then you will never see the mountain."

J.Krishnamurti

COMMENTS:

True. The thatness of an objects always eludes the senses and the sense-informed mind. Besides, the instreumental parts of being are so designed so as to adpat themselves to a narrow range of traits of the object under invedstigation and the object in turn reveals only so much of its qualities as the instrument is designed to study.

[JOEL]

TRUE CRITICISM:

"To me, then, true criticism consists in trying to find out the intrinsic worth of the thing itself, and not in attributing a quality to that thing. You attribute a quality to an environment, to an experience, only when you want to derive something from it, when you want to gain or to have power or happiness. Now this destroys true criticism. Your desire is perverted through attributing values, and therefore you cannot see clearly. Instead of trying to see the flower in its original and entire beauty, you look at it through coloured glasses, and therefore you can never see it as it is."

J.Krishnamurti

1933-12-29 1st Public Talk, Adyar, Madras, India.

COMMENT:

The thing-in-itself of an object under investigation cannot be known by reason or by inferential methods. True knowledge of the thatness of an object can only be acquired by the identification in consciousness of the subject with the object.

[JOEL]

OBSERVER-OBSERVED - MONISM:

"The observer is the observed."

Jiddu Krishnamurti

COMMENTS:

True, where the self in the manifestation is concerned but this assertion is false when the ultimate reality is sought to be explained by referring to one entity that serves as the source of the manifestation/cosmos. The ultimate reality is a sytem or a uniifed field with consciousness and energy serving as the obverse and reverse aspects of one reality which is the unified field.

[JOEL]

TRADITION IS DECADENCE:

"Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay."

Jiddu Krishnamurti

COMMENT:

True in most ways. Traditions and rituals are futile and a sheer waste of time, energy, material resources and consciousness. Direct experience and realization are everything.

[Frijoles]

JOEL wrote:

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Ok, Papa.
No offence meant.
I was just conveying to the audience on this august forum the special meaning that I attach to the term based on yogic experiences and intellectual understanding.

Resolved.

[JOEL]

FREEDOM FROM SUFFERING:

"And the point is, is it possible for the mind to be totally free from suffering and yet not become indifferent, callous, irresponsible, but to have that passion, the intensity, the energy that freedom brings, freedom from suffering."

J Krishnamurti, 3rd Public Talk, San Francisco, 1973

COMMENTS:

QUESTION:

How can this superior state of mental existence come about? Give the mechanisms involved.

[JOEL]

Good night from Joel, Cuffe Parade, Mumbai.

[JOEL]

Frijoles wrote:

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Resolved.

Thank you.

Good night.