Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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41,861 - 41,880 of 68,935 Comments Last updated 53 min ago
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46330 Dec 30, 2012
idgaf wrote:
So, why is it so difficult to resolve this problem between palestinians and israelis? My guess is that they are governmental and political problems and not necessarily of the people. Am I wrong? What's the point of waring for so long with no gain? Not one of these sides has gained a thing. This sounds like a failure of politicians of israel and palestine. Educate me on what the fight is, because I get confused as to what these people are fighting over. Is it 2 extremist groups? Do all israelis hate all palestinians?
You are asking a lot of good questions, of which the answers probably can not be fully explained in the course of a few paragraphs - they involve history, economics, religion, and politics - all weighty subjects in their own right.

MY own thoughts are the following:

Currently there is not a lot of political will on either side of the conflict to settle.

It is incorrect to say both sides have not gained a thing. Israel has achieved to be a modern, vibrant country - and it has a lot to loose if a future Palestinian state is created without security guarantees.

Most Israelis do not hate Palestinians. Within Israel proper, palestinians are granted equal rights, and serve in government, civil service, and even the military. Not to belittle the class divisions and economic inequalities in Israeli society between Jews and Arabs - they are real.

There are extremists on both sides. The extremism in the Jewish side is rooted in Jewish fundamentalism. Originally, the extremism on the Arab side was rooted in nationalism, but over the last twenty years, the extremism has been rooted in a widely accepted form of political Islam which has religiousized the conflict on the Arab side.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. I am sure others will weigh in with their own opinions and perspectives.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#46335 Dec 30, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You give fish an unpleasant name.
HughBe-- Pleasant good morning to you Frijoles. In reading your post I gather that you are a FISH.
Have a pleasant day.

Frijoles---You give fish an unpleasant name

HughBe--- I accept your self-assessment.
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46339 Dec 30, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe-- Pleasant good morning to you Frijoles. In reading your post I gather that you are a FISH.
Have a pleasant day.
Frijoles---You give fish an unpleasant name
HughBe--- I accept your self-assessment.
perhaps someday you will graduate to polite conversation

“Where is Cookeville?”

Since: Dec 07

Cookeville

#46342 Dec 30, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
You posted a fairly long post. We accept Jesus as a prophet of God and as a prophet of God, he preached the same message as prophets before him did.
That you worship only One True Lord and follow the example of your prophet.
As regards daily rituals and other things, we follow the example of Last and Final Prophet, who was sent as a Role Model for all humanity, till the last day.
We do not have to go very deep into the ritualistic aside of Jesus' message and concentrate on the spiritual and moral part of it, most of which were incorporated into teachings of our prophet, peace be on all prophets of God.
This is short reply to your long post.
No, you DON'T. Not as a people. By and large, the Islamic world is a complete basket-case, run by despots and madmen at the top-tier level of society and under the oppression of a mob of over-zealous hippocrites on the local level of your societies. Ultra-pious, uneducated bigots who have convinced YOUR masses that you should be nations and people's composed of busy-bodies who inform upon, hang, dis-member and stone people to death in order to be anything resembling a "moral" soceity and they have codified it into law somehow. Every Islamic nation in the world but a scant handful restrict the right of women to vote, most to even drive or be alone outside of their home without some sort of familial male escort, and every problem you hate-filled, paranoid people ever have you somehow blame on Israel or America. That mentality is SPECIFICALLY why Muslim nations by-and-large have officially rejected the teachings of Jesus, yes, He had problems with the world around Him as well. Israel was an occupied territory that most of the Jews of His time felt were at the mercy of powers they were too strong to withstand and could only rail against... did He feel that way? No. He knew where the fault in His world lay. That's not how the majority of the Muslims on the planet look at things, though. They would rather have "war with the Infidel" as the solution to all the problems of the Muslim world (and they are numerous, and ironic at the same time, the Palestinian people of the occupied West Bank had the lowest infant mortality rate throughout the entire middle east, not because Palestinian doctors were exceptional but BECAUSE Israelis policy meant that all citizens in the occupied West Bank, Muslim and Jew, were entitled to free medical care.) A magnitude 6 earthquake hit the city of Bam, Iran in the middle of the last decade, THOUSANDS died in the aftermath, the very same magnitude earthquake hit the city of Portland that year in America (a city of comperable population-size) and ONE person died. These comparisons could go on and on, Muq, but the bottom line is, no. The Islamic world has most definately NOT accepted any of the teachings of Jesus. It has not, and probably never will, become any sort of self-sufficient entity that chooses to fundamentally change itself to be a more appropriate construct for humanity to function within as a means to progress humanity. It prefers chaos. That is why the underlying theory of Islamic teaching defines the world itself as existing in two stages, the House of Islam and the house of War. Any rational human being would look at your societies and say to themselves..."yeah, I'll go with the house of War."

“Where is Cookeville?”

Since: Dec 07

Cookeville

#46344 Dec 30, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
What seems to be at the heart of the matter (to me at least) is not what is absolute right, but what is right living...
And that would be a philosophy, not an answer. Therefore it would seem to be most meaningful, it would HAVE to be tailored toward each individual.
Now, philosophically speaking, that does bring up an interesting point. Can they be at odds? Truly? Is there a difference between what is right and what is right-living? Is that a problem that a dude like Muq or a dude like Fred Phelps of that Westboro Baptist would have a hard time answering? Running into (yet another) problem I have had with my endeavor, watching money drip down the drain, being generally unproductive I suppose and stymied by every solution I attempt, yet, at the same time, being re-energized by the best gift I could have POSSIBLY gotten for my recent endeavors while, of course, contemplating Jesus, His message, and life-in-general this time of year, I am often left to wonder... I have always heard that the strongest and surest path to take through life is to never give up. Never, ever give up. But some things DO need to be given up on. That is exactly what Jesus was saying, give UP on the slave-trading, give UP on the money-lending, give UP on the killing, the stoning, the judgement of others, the blaming of everyone else for your problems, either individually or as a people. His own disciples questioned Him on that sometimes, he basically told them to STFU. But when is the proper TIME to give up? I'm an old hat, I would never claim to be a spring chicken, so I know how the world works. Every single celluar-phone company that started the industry in the late 80's and early 90's went belly-up, they died at auction sold-off for pennies on the dollar. Yet they were bought, and now practically every human on earth has a cellphone. Directv and Dish Network sufferred BILLION-dollar losses for decades becoming even remotely viable, but almost half of all subscribers of television services these days watch that crap. Something fed by a satellite. Jesus chose to stand to the death for what He believed in. Loving others. Treating people like you yourself would like to be treated. I admire that. How can you not admire that? The one person who has probably ever existed on the planet Who wanted absolutely nothing from you, didn't care, really, what you did or said or how you lived or anything... the ultimate loner. I like that. it is powerful.

“Where is Cookeville?”

Since: Dec 07

Cookeville

#46345 Dec 30, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Dont blame the poor Mayans. Their culture and belied system is undoubtably 100% more complicated than the water down "prophecy" that a few white people ran with.
Personally one of the funniest stories of 2012 to me was that Mitt Romney and Karl Rove, two of the more powerful wealthy folks in the US, with unlimited access to resources, were themselves victims to their party's own media bubble. Honestly (with no sarcasm), who would of thought?
Perhaps someone should of hooked their cable up to National Geographic as well.
I actually enjoyed watching Karl Rove get knocked off his high-horse. I liked his fairly humble background and all, but that guy really just seemed to run his course. He never seemed to me to be somebody particularily well-suited to managing something as important as election-posts that could effect international politics, and I would prefer that he just sort of "fall by the way-side." Plus, if he had had a lick of sense, he could have induced Condoleeze Rice to get on the ticket one way or the other, but the Republicans may simply not have had enough money to make that happen and run a campaign. I'm not saying I want a fancy-pants ultra-educated fellow as President like Hoover or that I want a suave fellow like Nixon, but I like a little spit and gravel mixed in with whoever I'm voting for. This last election, we had a guy who built his own career going out in Chicago nailing up posters to telephone polls. In the winter. That is not easy. He was running against a guy who arranged the buying and selling of American companies to downsize and mainstream through an office in China. The Republicans little "let's demonize Obama as a community organizer scheme" backfired on them, because they have never gone out during a Chicago winter to nail up posters to a telephone pole.
Eric

Roselle, IL

#46350 Dec 30, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Any one ridiculing and lampooning the personality and character of our prophet, makes his or her blood letting justified.
***
And not believing in message of our Prophet is not a crime which carries death penalty. Our prophet did not kill any one "Only because" he or she was an unbeliever.
Once some one has "made lawful her blood" by lampooning or making fun of the prophet, it was his judgment as to how to affect the penalty. He chose the method which would cause "minimum blood shed and maximum deterrent" to any would be "adventurer".***
The above proves my point. It is the epitome of ruthlessness to have someone killed for the exercise of free speech. And, you blindly buy into this blood letting. That was the only thing that the woman did. She spoke out against Muhammad's ruthlessness. And the coward had her killed in her sleep. Judge and Jury in one. And his lemming served as the executioner.
Eric

Roselle, IL

#46351 Dec 30, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I know you will not believe it, but the figure of 1000 is very correct and each and every one has been counted in.
Number of persons killed in BANI QURAIZAH incident was between 430-450 and that was the Single Biggest case of killing in the life of prophet, otherwise the actual figure would be around 650!!
As Stefano said, the 600-700 figure for the Quraizah Massacre comes from Muslim sources. Historians put the figure at closer to 900. And that was but one incident. How many Medinans?
Voluntarist

United States

#46352 Dec 30, 2012
saviorself wrote:
<quoted text>
I actually enjoyed watching Karl Rove get knocked off his high-horse. I liked his fairly humble background and all, but that guy really just seemed to run his course. He never seemed to me to be somebody particularily well-suited to managing something as important as election-posts that could effect international politics, and I would prefer that he just sort of "fall by the way-side." Plus, if he had had a lick of sense, he could have induced Condoleeze Rice to get on the ticket one way or the other, but the Republicans may simply not have had enough money to make that happen and run a campaign. I'm not saying I want a fancy-pants ultra-educated fellow as President like Hoover or that I want a suave fellow like Nixon, but I like a little spit and gravel mixed in with whoever I'm voting for. This last election, we had a guy who built his own career going out in Chicago nailing up posters to telephone polls. In the winter. That is not easy. He was running against a guy who arranged the buying and selling of American companies to downsize and mainstream through an office in China. The Republicans little "let's demonize Obama as a community organizer scheme" backfired on them, because they have never gone out during a Chicago winter to nail up posters to a telephone pole.
How do you know that idiot did any such thing? did you witness him hanging up posters?
Eric

Roselle, IL

#46353 Dec 30, 2012
MUQ wrote:
Which “Sword” the Prophet Used against his enemies: Part-23
Enemies of Islam represent our prophet as a very cruel and blood thirsty man, who would kill his “opponents, enemies and any one who disagreed with him” at “the drop of hat” and all his adversaries would be “terrified” at the mere sight of him.
The picture is far from true, let us look at some incidents from the life of prophet, as what was “this sword which killed the enmity for ever”
The death of Ibn Sunayna

Muhammad ordered all Jews killed. No reason other than they were Jews. Muhammad had worked up the ruthlessness in his followers to such an extent that the lemmings killed solely because ordered by Muhammad. Ibn Sunayna was a Jewish merchant who committed no other offense other than he was Jewish and in the wrong place at the wrong time. "Muhayyisa b. Mas`ud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him." When questioned by a companion why Muhayyisa had killed someone whom he owed his sustenance to, Muhayyisa said the reason was that Muhammad had ordered the death of all Jews and that was good enough for him. He would even kill the companion if ordered to by Muhammad.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 19, Number 2996:
Eric

Roselle, IL

#46354 Dec 30, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right, the Jews and Zionists do not want any peace, they want to hold on to the piece of land By Hook or By Crook.
All these so called peace proposals are 'for camera' only.
It is then exactly as I have stated. The Islamists like you will settle for nothing short of total victory. You can't get it through the wars you started. So your people suffer do to the failure of their leaders to negotiate peace.
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46355 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right, the Jews and Zionists do not want any peace, they want to hold on to the piece of land By Hook or By Crook.
All these so called peace proposals are 'for camera' only.
Once again you demonstrate you are incapable of looking at any side other than the side of political Islam.

I guess Arafat and later Abbas signing off on the Oslo Accords were "for camera" only.
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46356 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Please keep on giving examples of our prophet's ruthlessness…. And while giving these examples please check the Records of Fighting and Killings by your "Own Warrior Prophets" like Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon.
We should compare an apple against an apple and an orange against an orange, should we not?
We are the first to admit and acknowledge the ruthlessnes of some of the characters in our bible (of which I believe you, as a muslim, accept and revere).

Now, are you willing to admit the ruthfullness of yours?

By the way, it only takes one innocent death to be ruthless - so lets not get into a war about numbers.
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46357 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
You are getting emotional here and think your hysterics would win you the debate.
You should try to compose your thoughts and speak logically.
Any one ridiculing and lampooning the personality and character of our prophet, makes his or her blood letting justified.
No one is against a reasonable debate and discussion as to why he or she rejects the message of prophet.
And not believing in message of our Prophet is not a crime which carries death penalty. Our prophet did not kill any one "Only because" he or she was an unbeliever.
Actually, the fact your prophet was a child molester and a pedophile is not the reason why I "reject" your version of Islam.

I "reject" Islam because its utility in our world is about equal to a malignant neoplasm.

Eric

Roselle, IL

#46362 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
03. I do not know that "when" our prophet gave orders to kill "All Jews".
Are you telling me that the following is incorrect:

"Book 19, Number 2996:

"Narrated Muhayyisah:

"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: If you gain a victory over the men of Jews, kill them. So Muhayyisah jumped over Shubaybah, a man of the Jewish merchants. He had close relations with them. He then killed him. At that time Huwayyisah (brother of Muhayyisah) had not embraced Islam. He was older than Muhayyisah. When he killed him, Huwayyisah beat him and said: O enemy of Allah, I swear by Allah, you have a good deal of fat in your belly from his property."


What did this man do that he was killed?
Eric

Roselle, IL

#46363 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
You should learn how we Muslims treat the religious heads of other faith.
Yes, please explain the way Muslims are treating the religious heads of St. Gabriel's.
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46364 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
You should learn how we Muslims treat the religious heads of other faith.
Ok - I am all ears. Lets look at your previous post for an example of this...
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Please keep on giving examples of our prophet's ruthlessness…. And while giving these examples please check the Records of Fighting and Killings by your "Own Warrior Prophets" like Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon.
We should compare an apple against an apple and an orange against an orange, should we not?
Jeez, you are just full of love, arent you?
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46365 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Your uncouth words speak of your state of mind.
The "views" of a patient is not taken while discussing his treatment. You in a "subjective state" of extreme hate and hatred are not in a position to decide the Future of Islam.
I think that you overestimate your own personality than it is really worth.
PS:
I KNEW that any discussion between you and me would end in bandying words, It had to happen sooner and latter.
And the STARTING point is your using uncouth language against our prophet.
You have been told and warned about it many times.
Ummm....All because I challenge your inacurracies and your lopsided rhetoric?

How about defending your prophet against the allegations that I have stated. Was he a pedophile/child molester or not? How old was his wife?
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46366 Dec 31, 2012
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
I think that you overestimate your own personality than it is really worth.
.
Its the only personality that I own, and I value it very much.

Why would I look to you for the worth of my personality?

I am striking your comment from the record on the basis of irrelevancy towards the subject matter at hand.
Frijoles

Stamford, CT

#46367 Dec 31, 2012
Muq - And by the way, as long as you egoistically* elevate your prophet here on this forum, it is only fair for the rest of us to critique and and/or sling potshots at that image.

(*I use the word "egoistically" because you appear to have an issue with admitting you are wrong. The only explanation I can offer for this behavior involves the ego.)

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