Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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former res

Broomall, PA

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#45341
Dec 12, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe--- Please, let us stick to my simple questions. Please respond to them. Once again,reconcile your "ethnoreligious" with atheists Jews.
Atheist Jews are no longer ethnoreligious Jews.

They are now simply ethnic Jews.

Why is this so difficult to comprehend for you?
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you a Religious atheist?
No.

I'm an Irish-American atheist.

Nice to meet you.
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe--- so, how can a great many Jews who are atheists and agnostics be ethnoreligious?
See the first question and response.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45343
Dec 12, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
First things first. Address my post below e.g.do the reconciliation and answer the questions e.g. what is genetics etc.
HughBe--- what is genetics? Is it BIOLOGY ? What is the meaning of MIXTURE? Could it be the combination of two or more things?
So you speak of MIXTURE and part of that MIX is RACE/genetics.
Very interesting but lets return to the original context that provoked this discussion.

I believe you were making reference to the term "Jewish race".

Former and I corrected you that Jews were not a race, they were an ethno-religious group. Nothing you have posted since that has changed our assertion. Furthermore, we have defined our terms from third party sources that reinforce our assertion.

The long shot is that we could continue to talk about the appropriateness of using the term race vs genetics, vs relatedness, vs ethnicity vs ethnoreligious etc etc ALL IN THE GENERAL SENSE - but in the long run this is all moot because the original discussion was grounded in a discussion of the best term to define Jewry.

And to date, you have neither offered a better descriptive term NOR posted anything that negates the definition we provided.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45344
Dec 12, 2012
 

Judged:

1

former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheist Jews are no longer ethnoreligious Jews.
They are now simply ethnic Jews.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend for you?
FROM wiki (again)

Ethnoreligious communities define their ethnic identity NEITHER exclusively by ancestral heritage NOR simply by religious affiliation, but often through a combination of both-

(a long shared history; a cultural tradition of its own; either a common geographical origin, or descent from a small number of common ancestors; a common language, not necessarily peculiar to the group; a common literature peculiar to the group; a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups; being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community).

-----
I would add that if the atheistic Jew still have any of those ties within their consciousness that are listed above, they are still "ethinc" Jews. And if they loose those cultural ties, and the religion, simply, they are no longer Jews (and why would they be at that point?).

And if that same former ethnic atheistic Jew, who is now fully assimilated, is reminded that his mom was Jewish, the fact that this fact is now on the table, now makes that person a (ethnic) Jew, at least for the time being.

You are correct - it really isnt that complicated.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#45345
Dec 12, 2012
 
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
When I made my comment, I was thinking about life in general and what to believe and what not to believe.
For example, I REJECT many of the teachings of the church that I currently attend.Why? Doctrines must harmonise with scriptures for me to accept them. In essence I don't follow or are influenced by others.
Beyond that I have observed that many "experts" are not genuine intelligence. What you have are people who study hard acquire knowledge but who lack genuine UNDERSTANDING.
The state of the nations tell you this. THere are those who sample 50 persons and then make generalize statements about over 300,000,000 persons. These are the "experts" that Frijoles respect but I deem them for what they are, FOOLS.
rabbee: well i do not believe anyone, in this world today. i think the whole world, is in some kind of false projected fantacy la-la land.

i, do not think this world has ever accepted. how they have so highly underestimated just how sneaky and counter-intelligent, the subtle beasts of the fields really are. by so highly overestimating, themselves. and so few willing to admit, they have been or are being conned.
MUQ

Saudi Arabia

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#45346
Dec 12, 2012
 
Which “Sword” the Prophet Used against his enemies: Part-6

Enemies of Islam represent our prophet as a very cruel and blood thirsty man, who would kill his “opponents, enemies and any one who disagreed with him” at “the drop of hat” and all his adversaries would be “terrified” at the mere sight of him.

The picture is far from true, let us look at some incidents from the life of prophet, as what was “this sword which killed the enmity for ever”

The Case of : HIND BINT UTBAH BIN RABEAH

A. Early History:

She was the daughter of Utbah bin Rabeah, one of the Chiefs of Makkah. She was wife of Abu Sufian, another Chief of Makkah and she was the mother of Muawiah , Fifth Caliph of Islamic state. So from every angle her was a dignified position.

When prophet declared his mission in Makkah, both her father Utbah and her husband Abu Sufian became staunch enemies of Islam. She inherited hatred of Islam from both directions and was enemy of Islam by any standard.

When prophet migrated to Medina and the first battle took place between Makkan and Muslims at the place of Badr, her husband was leading the Trade Caravan, which was one reason for the battle. Her father was head of Makkan army.

Her father, her uncle and her brother (Utbah, Shaibah and Waleed) were the first three Makkan who were killed in individual combats, before the general fighting started. They were killed by Hamzah, prophet’s Uncle, Ali, Prophet’s cousin and Ubaidah, prophets cousin.

These three deaths of close family members at the hands of so close relatives of prophet, made her almost mad with rage.

B. Hind and the Battle of Ohud:

This battle which took place in 3AH was to take the revenge for the battle of Badr. In this battle, Hind was leading groups of Makkan women that were singing battle songs and encouraging their men to fight.

Hind devised a plan to kill Hamzah, the uncle of prophet, who had killed her father and brother at Badr. She told one Abyssinian slave that if he killed Hamzah, he would be set free. The slave looked for Hamzah and finding an opportunity, killed him with his lance.

When news reached Hind, she found the corpse of Hamzah, cut his nose and ears and hung them as garland around her neck…..then she opened his stomach and took out the liver….she tried to chew it, but spat after a few bites.

And she left the corpse of Hamzah in that condition in the battle field. Following her action, other Makkan women disfigured corpses of other martyred Muslims.

When prophet saw the condition of his uncle’s body after the end of battle, he was extremely pained….he vowed to do the same to copses of unbelievers, but was told by God to refrain from it.

This incident shows the spiteful nature and passion of that great woman!!

(Contd.)

MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

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#45347
Dec 12, 2012
 
C: How did prophet “slay” her:

When prophet captured Makkah in 8 AH, he announced a general amnesty to all Makkah people. Abu Sufian had accepted Islam just days before capture of Makkah, prophet gave him amnesty and told that any one who will take refuge in his house will be granted amnesty.

After order was restored, prophet took the pledge of Islam, from every one in Makkah, first men and when no one was left…he took the pledge from women also.

Hind, also appeared before prophet, disguised so that she might not be recognized and the following dialogues took place:

“I will worship Allah and will make no partners with him” Said the prophet

“I accept this” said Hind

“I will not commit adultery or fornication” said prophet

“Can any honorable women do such things” said Hind

“I will not kill my children” said the prophet

“We raise them and then you kill them” said Hind

“Are you Hind” asked the prophet?

“Yes” replied Hind

“I will not steal” said the prophet

“I take some money from Abu Sufian’s purse because he is miser, is it also stealing” said Hind

“If you take what suffice you and your children , then it is OK” said the prophet.

So the pledge was taken and Hind said

“O prophet of Allah, when I came here, no face was more disagreeable to me than your face and now it is most beautiful of All faces” said Hind

Such was Hind daughter of Utbah, one of the victims of “sword” of our prophet!!

Source: Companions of Prophet: by Talib Hashmi
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45353
Dec 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Hence the term ETHNO-RELIGOUS....
HughBe--- BS. It is a tool that is used to enslave others
YES, wikipedia that great tool of satan
2. Do you suppose that the Jews in Jamaica observe the culture of Jamaica? What is culture?
Well, you wouldnt call them "Jews" if there wasnt something ethnically or religiously distinct about them in the first place.
Once again, you are living in your head with your own private rules and vocab.
Frijoles---Well, you wouldnt call them "Jews" if there wasnt something ethnically or religiously distinct about them in the first place.

HughBe--- Indeed there is something DISTINCT about them i.e. RACE. In the same way we call other Jamaicans; Indians, Chinese, Syrians etc. in other words we identify them in terms of their ancestry.

Frijoles---Once again, you are living in your head with your own private rules and vocab

HughBe--- BS noted. Now, ADDRESS the outstanding matters below.

HughBe--- what is genetics? Is it BIOLOGY ? What is the meaning of MIXTURE? Could it be the combination of two or more things?
So you speak of MIXTURE and part of that MIX is RACE/genetics.

Frijoles---Hence the term ETHNO-RELIGOUS....

HughBe--- BS. It is a tool that is used to enslave others. I have demonstrated this countless times. You shall now be given the opportunity to do it yourself.

Tell me about the RELIGIOUS beliefs of atheists, agnostics and other secular or non-RELIGIOUS Jews.

HughBe---Do you suppose that the Jews in Jamaica observe the culture of Jamaica? What is culture?


Reconcile your make-believe with the reality.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45355
Dec 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, what you are calling race is really skin color. Why are you even wasting time on this?
Frijoles---Again, what you are calling race is really skin color

HughBe--- I believe that your stupidity cannot only be the result of Judaism it must be genetics.

When CNN speak about black votes or white votes are they speaking about RACE or skin colour?

Oh, skin colour account for the Jewish NOSE,in your sick head, or is it Judaism that gives Jews a Jewish nose?

Take your time and read slooly.

Had you been an American you would have learnt long ago that RACE is a MAJOR issue in the US. Given that you are slow you really should have learnt even in 2012 and in fact it played a major part in the American election for president.

The more educated whites(RACE) and younger ones voted based on their BRAINS older ones like YOU voted based on your feelings whatever those are.

Do the research, sometimes you can leave Israel your homeland and visit and look at other countries.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45357
Dec 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You are confusing me with your made up language.
Kindly post something from another credible link that defines your term Judaite.
Son, I have not yet started to confuse you.

Let me play your foolish game.

Specifically, tell me how YOU and the other members of Judaism are UNIFIED in RELIGIOUS beliefs with Jews who do NOT share your religious beliefs or who do NOT have any type of RELIGIOUS beliefs e.g. ATHEISTS and other SECULAR Jews.

How do you get UNITY here? Your continued efforts to dodge and to TWIST things underscore the nature of your religion JUDAISM.

HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45361
Dec 12, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Very interesting but lets return to the original context that provoked this discussion.
I believe you were making reference to the term "Jewish race".
Former and I corrected you that Jews were not a race, they were an ethno-religious group. Nothing you have posted since that has changed our assertion. Furthermore, we have defined our terms from third party sources that reinforce our assertion.
The long shot is that we could continue to talk about the appropriateness of using the term race vs genetics, vs relatedness, vs ethnicity vs ethnoreligious etc etc ALL IN THE GENERAL SENSE - but in the long run this is all moot because the original discussion was grounded in a discussion of the best term to define Jewry.
And to date, you have neither offered a better descriptive term NOR posted anything that negates the definition we provided.
Frijoles-- I corrected you that Jews were not a race

HughBe--- You CORRECTED me in the same way that your masters CORRECTED the scriptures thousands of years later.

Once more--what is genetics? Is it BIOLOGY ? What is the meaning of MIXTURE? Could it be the combination of two or more things?

So you speak of MIXTURE and part of that MIX is RACE/genetics
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45363
Dec 12, 2012
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheist Jews are no longer ethnoreligious Jews.
They are now simply ethnic Jews.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend for you?
<quoted text>
No.
I'm an Irish-American atheist.
Nice to meet you.
<quoted text>
See the first question and response.
HughBe--- Please, let us stick to my simple questions. Please respond to them. Once again,reconcile your "ethnoreligious" with atheists Jews.

Former--Atheist Jews are no longer ethnoreligious Jews.

HughBe--- In other words YOU are unable to reconcile atheists Jews with your FOOLISH idea that Jews are an ethnoreligious group. Now, do you really understand your words? Do you understand that I am and have been saying that being Jewish is NOT a ethnoreligious matter? You have just said the same thing without understanding it. List the elements of ethnicity and apply them to atheists Jews in the US.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45364
Dec 12, 2012
 
rabbee yehoshooah adam wrote:
<quoted text>
rabbee: well i do not believe anyone, in this world today. i think the whole world, is in some kind of false projected fantacy la-la land.
i, do not think this world has ever accepted. how they have so highly underestimated just how sneaky and counter-intelligent, the subtle beasts of the fields really are. by so highly overestimating, themselves. and so few willing to admit, they have been or are being conned.
Sad, I have spoken the truth.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45368
Dec 12, 2012
 
Former---It is NOT perverson anymore than is your supposed attraction to women.

HughBe--- Why is this so?

Former--Again, you are after me to prove or explain a negative.

HughBe-- I'm asking you why is homosexuality no longer classified as a PERVERSION and a mental illness? What are the scientific reasons?

Former--Why would you suggest it is sick or unnatural for two consenting adults to express their affectione for one another?

HughBe--- Ask the MEDICAL fraternity why they not only suggested that it was a SICKNESS but they CLASSIFIED it as such.

Former--Why do you care so much what happens in the bedrooms of others?

HughBe--- when did I say that I care?
I don't but it still remains a SICKNESS and a PERVERSION.

Besides tell your fellows to desist with their LIES. The fact that I think that their sexual activities are perverted does not mean that I have an IRRATIONAL fear of them or homophobic.

Tell them to stop seeking approval from others.

Former--We do NOT control whom we are ATTRACTED to or whom we love.

HughBe--- Do you ever THINK? Of course not. I believe that the paedophiles are glad that you have made such an INTELLIGENT and VALID point.

Former--The key words are: consenting adults.

HughBe-- Thank you for the NEW insert i.e. consenting adults. Tell me are children attracted to each other? Can they control it? What about the paedophiles can they control their attractions?

Recall, your ORIGINAL point was about CONTROL and attraction. THe history is here to prove it.

Do children have sex in the US? At what age did you have your first sexual experience?

HughBe--- I know from the words used by you that you have a science background.

True. At the graduate level.

HughBe-- At the level of a Permanent head Damage level or Master's level?

HughBe--In your mind, conducting tests equates to PROOF? This is not a science question so please answer.

Former--You need to know the difference between proof and evidence.

HughBe-- You need to learn to answer simple questions. Answer it now.

Former--Note that gravity is still only a theory, but also what big hurdle even that status requires.

HughBe-- I am suggesting that you disprove the theory of gravity and jump off a 7 storey building.

HughBe--REcall I asked YOU for PROOF in your BELIEF. YOU have none and which by definition= FAITH and in fact BLIND faith.

Former--You want me to "prove" what I BELIEVE?

Is this correct?

HughBe--- Time wasting

HughBe---It is true that not everything I believe has absolute proof.

But I would argue that much or most of it has evidence.

HughBe-- There is greater EVIDENCE of a Creator. THINK and LOOK.

Former--It sounds as though you "pull your weight" around the house.

HughBe--- no, I wrap it around my waist when not in use.

Former--Did you also do midnight diaper changes on your kids?

HughBe--- Most likely, but I don't recall.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45370
Dec 12, 2012
 
bye-Frijoles and Former

It is now 11:04 pm and so I am out of here.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#45377
Dec 12, 2012
 

Judged:

1

HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Sad, I have spoken the truth.
rabbee: oh how i know you, actually believe it is the truth. but is it? is it really? with you and about, seven billion others just as true to them.

if you can't even accept the possibility, that you are even now the conned. then the chances are, you are the conned. no different than anyone else in this world.
Urm Omma

Dracut, MA

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#45379
Dec 12, 2012
 
So, why do we do all these things we do for israel? What is so important about this place and its people?
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#45380
Dec 12, 2012
 
Urm Omma wrote:
So, why do we do all these things we do for israel? What is so important about this place and its people?
rabbee: well i don't know about any of you, but what i am doing is for G-D only. if i did it for jews, Ysrael or any other reason, that would be idolitry. no nation, race, religion, or individual, is worth sacrificing my relationship with G-D for. just so i could patrionize, their not here in TheStory of Creation idolitries.

“The end justifies the means”

Since: Jun 11

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#45381
Dec 12, 2012
 

Judged:

1

I've never seen one religion so persecuted throughout the annals of history. To have survived and thrived as they have speaks volumes of their resiliency and perseverance. Respect.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#45386
Dec 13, 2012
 
Read about JEWS who practice other RELIGIONS beside Judaism.All quotes below are take from My Jewish Learning site.

Where is the UNIFIED religious beliefs that support this FALSE doctrine that Jews are an ethnoreligious group.

Open your eyes and LEARN. The concept made no sense from the start. To whom little is given little is expected, in my mind.

"In the last several decades, countless Westerners have turned to Eastern religions for inspiration and spirituality. JEWS have been no different. Many American JEWS flocked to Eastern religions as part of the hippy counter-culture of the 1960s and 1970s, and today, India and Thailand are havens for Israelis seeking to explore other cultures and religions"

HughBe--- Are JEWS flocking EASTERN religions? YES. Read the quote again. They are JEWS and do NOT practice JUDAISM.

"He explained that these Jews turned to Hinduism after the rabbis refused to teach them Jewish mysticism, which many rabbis only teach to committed, knowledgeable Jews"

HughBe--Note in my mind the mysticism is found in the law.

"Martin Buber, a 20th-century thinker, went a step further than Mendelssohn. He made no mention of the idolatrous nature of Eastern religions, and suggested that they made positive contributions to his own understanding of Jewish spirituality"

Rabbi"Schachter-Shalomi embraced those JEWS who practiced Eastern religions, within certain limits."

What RELIGION did these JEWS practice? Is it Judaism? NO.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issue...
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#45387
Dec 13, 2012
 

Judged:

1

HughBe wrote:
Read about JEWS who practice other RELIGIONS beside Judaism.All quotes below are take from My Jewish Learning site.
Where is the UNIFIED religious beliefs that support this FALSE doctrine that Jews are an ethnoreligious group.
Open your eyes and LEARN. The concept made no sense from the start. To whom little is given little is expected, in my mind.
"In the last several decades, countless Westerners have turned to Eastern religions for inspiration and spirituality. JEWS have been no different. Many American JEWS flocked to Eastern religions as part of the hippy counter-culture of the 1960s and 1970s, and today, India and Thailand are havens for Israelis seeking to explore other cultures and religions"
HughBe--- Are JEWS flocking EASTERN religions? YES. Read the quote again. They are JEWS and do NOT practice JUDAISM.
"He explained that these Jews turned to Hinduism after the rabbis refused to teach them Jewish mysticism, which many rabbis only teach to committed, knowledgeable Jews"
HughBe--Note in my mind the mysticism is found in the law.
"Martin Buber, a 20th-century thinker, went a step further than Mendelssohn. He made no mention of the idolatrous nature of Eastern religions, and suggested that they made positive contributions to his own understanding of Jewish spirituality"
Rabbi"Schachter-Shalomi embraced those JEWS who practiced Eastern religions, within certain limits."
What RELIGION did these JEWS practice? Is it Judaism? NO.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issue...
CONGRATULATIONS!

You have just DISCOVERED Jews who are ethnic Jews.

(now of course you could of saved lots of time had you read FR or my posts...)

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