Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
As it's only the 5th of the month, and I'm already up to click 5 of my free 10 monthly NYT clicks, I'd better not re-open the link/NYT aticle you posted....but....
I thought the whole point of the article was how outraged the congregants were over the letter signed by the congregation leaders in support of the UN decision re: Palestine's new status.
No, not every single congregant was outraged, but it sure gave the impression that was the general reaction.
I have no doubt that anyone there is not supportive of Israel. I guess the point to me was how supportive they are of the rights of Palestine. Like letting the Nazis march in Skokie (or wherever), it's a true test of liberalism and a groups or peoples' rights.

"It was not immediately clear how widespread opposition to the rabbis’ e-mail has been within the congregation, but Mr. Ripp said he had been inundated with messages from people upset about the rabbis’ statement, and some members had posted comments online and circulated e-mails expressing concern.

But others supported the action..."

Controversy makes good news. Also, it wouldnt suprise me if at least 1 NYTimes editor/reporter belonged there as well. Its a large and extermely well known congregation.

In general, the clergy there are famous for being in the front of human rights issues.(if I recollect, one of them might have served time in an Argetinian prison in their youth) When they speak, people listen. That is news in itself.

----
I was prevented from accessing a Wall Street Journal article yesterday for the same reason.

[Cult of Reason]

former res wrote:

Sure, "beauty, order, laws are all made" - I agree.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Why make the assumption that they are "all made"?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is not evidence for a creator or that something is "made".

Order and patterns can arise from disorder as chaos theory clearly shows us. A die rolled multiple times to simulate randomness will eventually show patterns of consecutive numbers. Naturally occurring attractive forces (strong force, weak force, electro-magnetic force)brings matter together. Given infinite or very large space-time, and complex patterns of matter become inevitable amongst the randomness.

Laws of physics (classical and quantum)governing matter, energy and forces is where we'll find answers to questions, not in the concept of a "creator" as a necessity for the existence of complex things.

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
you didn't say good-bye to me, you baxtard!!

What can i say...I remind him of his livestock...

(speaking of livestock, where is ATF?)

[Cult of Reason]

HughBe wrote:

Finally, those religions that speak about reincarnation has NEVER made any sense to me for two reasons it cannot be proven and I cannot relate to the experience personally.

Funny. That's partially why I reject all religions, including yours. None of them can be proven. The best argument you have is full of logical fallacies, just like every other religion. Sorry to be blunt about it, but you're not special. Your religion is not special.

[former res]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
"It was not immediately clear how widespread opposition to the rabbis’ e-mail has been within the congregation, but Mr. Ripp said he had been inundated with messages from people upset about the rabbis’ statement, and some members had posted comments online and circulated e-mails expressing concern.
But others supported the action..."
Controversy makes good news. Also, it wouldnt suprise me if at least 1 NYTimes editor/reporter belonged there as well. Its a large and extermely well known congregation.
In general, the clergy there are famous for being in the front of human rights issues.(if I recollect, one of them might have served time in an Argetinian prison in their youth) When they speak, people listen. That is news in itself.
----
I was prevented from accessing a Wall Street Journal article yesterday for the same reason.

True that. The media would want to focus on the discord. That's really the news. Magnify whatever outrage there is.

Where is that place? Wasn't it Upper West Side? You went into the city for services? Good for you.

[former res]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Why make the assumption that they are "all made"?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is not evidence for a creator or that something is "made".
Order and patterns can arise from disorder as chaos theory clearly shows us. A die rolled multiple times to simulate randomness will eventually show patterns of consecutive numbers. Naturally occurring attractive forces (strong force, weak force, electro-magnetic force)brings matter together. Given infinite or very large space-time, and complex patterns of matter become inevitable amongst the randomness.
Laws of physics (classical and quantum)governing matter, energy and forces is where we'll find answers to questions, not in the concept of a "creator" as a necessity for the existence of complex things.

Fair enough.

Though this may be a matter of semantics.(Not that I'm anti-semantic!:))

Seriously though, when I agree with "made," I really doubt Huggybear and I mean the same thing.

He assumed I meant a creator but I don't think that necessarily follows.

If the earth were "made" during a big bang, that to me doesn't imply a creator (per se) was at work.

Though when believers argue that "something can't come from nothing," - on a basic scientific level, I can't really argue with them - can you?

This could all be very random as you say, and I suspect it is - but still, somehow it got made. And out of something.

[Cult of Reason]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
What can i say...I remind him of his livestock...
(speaking of livestock, where is ATF?)

Maybe the non-existent government finally caught up with him.

[Cult of Reason]

former res wrote:

Fair enough.
Though this may be a matter of semantics.(Not that I'm anti-semantic!:))
Seriously though, when I agree with "made," I really doubt Huggybear and I mean the same thing.
He assumed I meant a creator but I don't think that necessarily follows.
If the earth were "made" during a big bang, that to me doesn't imply a creator (per se) was at work.

Sounds like you were more talking cause and effect.

former res wrote:

Though when believers argue that "something can't come from nothing," - on a basic scientific level, I can't really argue with them - can you?

Saying that atheists believe something came from nothing is a straw argument perpetuated by religious apologists. Never mind the fact that "nothing" is more a concept than a reality. In reality, there is no "nothing". Even empty space has quantum fluctuations with quantum particles seemingly coming into and out of existence. The fact is, matter and energy could have always existed. There could be any number of explanations for the big bang ranging from it being a cyclical event or it could have been the result of different dimensions colliding. Who knows? Surely not the religionists.

former res wrote:

This could all be very random as you say, and I suspect it is - but still, somehow it got made. And out of something.

Again, I think your talking cause and effect. As far as energy and quantum particles is concerned, why did it have to be made? Why can't it be that it just always existed. Carl Sagan said it pretty well in the following video...

http://youtu.be/Ag6fH8cU-MU

[former res]

Can Something Come from Nothing?

http://commonsenseatheism.com/...

I think they're saying no, but I'm not sure.

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
True that. The media would want to focus on the discord. That's really the news. Magnify whatever outrage there is.
Where is that place? Wasn't it Upper West Side? You went into the city for services? Good for you.

There was a time when most of my social life revolved around the city. Yes, UWS. They create the BEST music in that place. And was(still is?) a singles place. That's its other reputation - music and singles.

[Cult of Reason]

former res wrote:

Can Something Come from Nothing?
http://commonsenseatheism.com/...
I think they're saying no, but I'm not sure.

Yep. Again, it's a straw argument. Don't fall into that trap when discussing the matter with an apologist.

[Cult of Reason]

Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?

Short answer: Why not?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvaria...

[former res]

Cult of Reason wrote:

Sounds like you were more talking cause and effect.

I don't know exactly how you mean this.

But I do like to point out the difference between causation and correlation (or association), a conflation I see often.

Cult of Reason wrote:

Saying that atheists believe something came from nothing is a straw argument perpetuated by religious apologists.

It certainly is a straw man with this man.(That being me!)

Cult of Reason wrote:

Never mind the fact that "nothing" is more a concept than a reality. In reality, there is no "nothing". Even empty space has quantum fluctuations with quantum particles seemingly coming into and out of existence. The fact is, matter and energy could have always existed. There could be any number of explanations for the big bang ranging from it being a cyclical event or it could have been the result of different dimensions colliding. Who knows? Surely not the religionists. Again, I think your talking cause and effect. As far as energy and quantum particles is concerned, why did it have to be made? Why can't it be that it just always existed. Carl Sagan said it pretty well in the following video...
http://youtu.be/Ag6fH8cU-MU

Couldn't agree with Carl more.

The origin of all this is definitely unknown and likely unknowable. People like you and me can live with that. Others cannot it seems.

One of my pet peeves in life (along with non-blinker-using lane changers) is people who state something authoritatively while being WRONG. Basically I never belive them again.

[former res]

Cult of Reason wrote:

Why Is There Something Rather Than Nothing?
Short answer: Why not?
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvaria...

Yeah, he says maybe not even the right question.

Fascinating what the 'ole googler turns up.

[former res]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
There was a time when most of my social life revolved around the city. Yes, UWS. They create the BEST music in that place. And was(still is?) a singles place. That's its other reputation - music and singles.

Ahhh, like the Unitarians!(Singles, not as sure about the music.)

Love the city. Walking the Brooklyn Bridge. 5th Avenue around xmas time. All good. Washingto square. etc

Was in Tampa this summer with my very Catholic uncle (he sponsored my at my confirmation). And of so of coures we went to church.

They had the best music I ever heard in a Catholic church and I tool the music director so.

Real piano (not an organ); electric gutair; flute - great singing. good songs even.

Makes all the differecne. I think I even gave more $$!!

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
Ahhh, like the Unitarians!(Singles, not as sure about the music.)
Love the city. Walking the Brooklyn Bridge. 5th Avenue around xmas time. All good. Washingto square. etc
Was in Tampa this summer with my very Catholic uncle (he sponsored my at my confirmation). And of so of coures we went to church.
They had the best music I ever heard in a Catholic church and I tool the music director so.
Real piano (not an organ); electric gutair; flute - great singing. good songs even.
Makes all the differecne. I think I even gave more $$!!

I guess it makes sense - religious institutions often produce good music (i.e. gospel, gregorian chants etc etc..). In BJs case (yes, the synagogue is referred to by those two VERY amusing initials) being in NYC they attract quality supporting musicians. I have a few CDs of some of the spinoff instrumental stuff. The clergy themselves have strong voices and a hip sense of beat, they could easily be rock stars in another profession.

The longer I live in CT the less I go into the city, except for business. Fatigue and cheapness.

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
Ahhh, like the Unitarians!

My brother in law is one of those. Rather nice religion (if there is a religion beneath it all).

[Frijoles]

Cult of Reason wrote:

<quoted text>
Never mind the fact that "nothing" is more a concept than a reality. In reality, there is no "nothing".

I am still trying to grapple with the notion of imaginary numbers.

Though, ashamedly I have to admit the idea has become easier to grasp over time the more I converse with some of the less logical people here on this forum.

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
Real piano (not an organ); electric gutair; flute - great singing. good songs even.
Makes all the differecne. I think I even gave more $$!!

Some of the popular instruments I remember include the oud, djemba, cello, electric guitar and fiddle.

[rabbee yehoshooah adam]

former res wrote:

Can Something Come from Nothing?
http://commonsenseatheism.com/...
I think they're saying no, but I'm not sure.

rabbee: well according to all, my scientific studies. that everytime you divide something, you get a lot of nothing in between. so i am not so sure, this world is looking at anything right. with a lot of their nothing, truly in between their ears.