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Kingston, Jamaica

#43976 Nov 25, 2012
Clayton Winton wrote:
<quoted text>
Mexicans are Native Americans too. America is not a country. It's a continant. There are/were Native Americans from the North Pole to the South Pole and everywhere in-between. Yes, it's a "melting pot," myself a 'mutt', a 'mix' of many different peoples, Scandanavian, Native American, French, English, Jewish/Hebrew, and probably a 'part' of me is 'african' too ...:)
As I understand it part of America i.e. Texas was annexed from Mexico so it is not surprising to find some Native Americans in Mexico BUT you will not find them here in Jamaica.

Kingston, Jamaica

#43977 Nov 25, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Indigenous tribal folk from Jamaica are/were in fact native-Americans.
Let me put it this way. In America you have the majority/whites who are of European ancestry.Now are they Europeans or Americans?


Farmington, CT

#43978 Nov 25, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me put it this way. In America you have the majority/whites who are of European ancestry.Now are they Europeans or Americans?
Fine - I will let you ignore what is conventionally accepted as the meaning of the label native-American. We will now call them the more objectively anthropological term of "indigenous" tribalfolk of Jamaica.

Now what happened to them?

Farmington, CT

#43979 Nov 25, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a good question. Why did the Arawak and Taíno population leave Jamaica?
btw, Hugh. American does not only refer to the U.S.
Definition of AMERICAN
1: an American Indian of North America or South America
2: a native or inhabitant of North America or South America
The last time I checked, the Greater Antilles were part of North America.
The virgin soil epidemic caused by the arrival of smallpox and other diseases from Europe, combined with Spain's harsh policies of enslavement, resettlement, and the separation of families, the encomienda system, resulted in Taino society's drastic decline within a few decades after contact.[12] Attacks by Carib tribes and unrelenting harsh treatment by the Europeans accelerated the process. Although Taino society was destroyed by European expansion, some of their bloodlines persist among the new settlers, primarily Western and African peoples.

Early population estimates of Hispaniola, probably the most populous island inhabited by Taínos, range from 100,000 to 1,000,000 people. The maximum estimates for Jamaica and Puerto Rico are 600,000 people.[27] The Spanish priest Bartolomé de Las Casas (who was living in the Dominican Republic at the time) wrote in his 1561 multivolume History of the Indies:[28]

There were 60,000 people living on this island [when I arrived in 1508], including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this?
Researchers today doubt Las Casas's figures for the pre-contact levels of the Taíno population, considering them an exaggeration. For example, Anderson Córdova estimates a maximum of 500,000 people inhabiting the island.[29] The Taíno population estimates range all over, from a few hundred thousand up to 8,000,000.[30] They had no resistance to Old World diseases, notably smallpox.[31] The encomienda system brought many Taínos to work in the fields and mines in exchange for Spanish protection,[32] education, and a seasonal salary.[33] Under the pretense of searching for gold and other materials,[34] many Spaniards took advantage of the regions now under control of the anaborios and Spanish encomienderos to exploit the native population by stealing their land and wealth. It would take some time before the Taínos were to revolt against their oppressors—both Indian and Spanish alike—and many military campaigns to finally induce Emperor Charles V to eradicate the encomienda system as a form of slavery.[35][36]
In thirty years, between 80% and 90% of the population died.[37] Because of the increased number of people (Spanish) on the island, there was a higher demand for food from the Taíno method of plantation which was being converted to Spanish methods. In hopes of gaining a pyrrhic victory over the Spanish, some Taínos refused to plant or even harvest their crops and in doing so, the supply of food became so low in 1495 and 1496 that some 50,000 died from the severity of the famine.[38] Despite this massive decline in population, it is safe to say that there simply wasn't enough of a Spanish military presence to be attributed to the large reduction of native manpower.[39][40] By 1507 their numbers had shrunk to 60,000. Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, such as purposeful destruction of the people by the colonists and enslavement, newly imported epidemic disease (smallpox, influenza, measles, and typhus) was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the indigenous people.[41

Farmington, CT

#43980 Nov 25, 2012


Though Columbus was unaware of it, the Taínos had their own distinct religion. At first believing the Spanish were gods, the Taínos treated them with great respect. The late discovery of the Taíno's religious practices means that much of the information came from tribes located on Hispaniola. However these practices are considered typical of Taínos throughout the region.

Their mythology included many gods and a human creation myth, which stated that humans came from two caves. According to the story, one day the guardian forgot to close these caves and the humans escaped, as did the sun. This guardian was turned into stone. Their religion also forbade men to look into the sun and claimed that those who did would be transformed into animals and trees.

The supreme god, called Yocahuna in Jamaica, and goddess of the Taínos were only two of the spirits worshiped by the people of the islands. Other spirits were called zemes. This word could mean both the spirits themselves and the carved images of them. Bones and skulls of the dead, spirits of the dead, and anything believed to have magic powers were also called zemes. Few of these carvings survive, since they were made of wood.

Taíno priests encouraged the people to believe that some such zemes could speak. The Spanish found a speaking tube inside a zeme in a cacique's hut, and the cacique is said to have asked them not to tell his people of his deception.

The zemes were often celebrated in public festivals in which the Taínos dressed in their finest. Men pained themselves in red, yellow, and black and wore feather cloaks and headdresses. Everyone wore shell ornaments. The Taíno made offerings to the zeme for protection against fire and hurricanes, as well.

Priests were also healers, and zemes were said to be the cause of many illnesses. While priests knew herb lore and could provide cures, some cures were more magic than medicine. The Taínos believed in coyaba, a heaven in which there were no droughts, hurricanes, or sickness; those who lived in coyaba spent their time feasting and dancing.

These customs, foods, and activities were intrinsic to Jamaica before the Spanish arrived, and have influenced the way of life on the island since those early times

Farmington, CT

#43981 Nov 25, 2012
Hughbe - you should be following the religion of your ancestors instead of the religion of your exploiters.

Lombard, IL

#43984 Nov 25, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Eric---That's a good question. Why did the Arawak and Taíno population leave Jamaica?
HughBe--- They decided to go to the afterlife because of the good treatment they were getting.
Eric---btw, Hugh. American does not only refer to the U.S.
Definition of AMERICAN
1: an American Indian of North America or South America
2: a native or inhabitant of North America or South America
The last time I checked, the Greater Antilles were part of North America
HughBe--- very good but Native-Americans are those born in America and NOT Jamaica. Recall his question "Do you still have native-Americans on your island?"
Eric---btw, Hugh. American does not only refer to the U.S.
Definition of AMERICAN
1: an American Indian of North America or South America
2: a native or inhabitant of North America or South America
The last time I checked, the Greater Antilles were part of North America

You are really dense. The last time I checked, the Greater Antilles were part of America--which includes North and South America.


"A landmass in the western hemisphere that consists of the continents of North and South America joined by the Isthmus of Panama"

Now can you be serious?

United States

#43985 Nov 25, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
With all due respect sir, you yourself might be the best argument for contraception, without even needing the UN....
I'm quite sure that your daddy wished that he pulled out.

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

#43987 Nov 25, 2012
Lecture 7. The message of the Holy Prophet of Islam part-49

Divisions into clans and Nations:

Before Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) the world was divided into different clans who hardly knew one another. In India, the holy men of Hinduism had confined their religion to their own sacred law. Their God was concerned with the welfare of their followers only. Its benefits were meant for the people of the land, particularly for certain families of a higher caste.

Zoroaster heard the message of God, but only for the people of the holy land of Persia. The Children of Israel believed that no prophet would ever come from outside their own tribes.

It is the Prophet of Islam who has brought the Divine Message for the whole mankind. His message is not limited to the East or the West. The Divine Guidance, sent down through him is not meant just for one country, or one nation or one language. In its sight, Palestine, Persia, India or Arabia have the same status. It was meant to enlighten all mankind. Therefore, its light has spread throughout the world. In the words of Allah there was no community without a warner having passed among them.(Chp.35:Vrs.24)

For every people there is a messenger.( Chp.10 :Vrs.47)

We had indeed sent before you messengers to their people.( Chp.30 :Vrs.47)

A Jew does not recognize any prophet of non-Jewish origin. It is not required of a Christian to believe in the Jewish prophets or prophets from other nations. This does not stop him from being a true Christian. Believers in Hinduism do not believe in any voice of God, coming from outside India. A follower of Zoroaster sees darkness everywhere except in Persia.

But it is Prophet Muhammad’s message which proclaims that all mankind belongs to Allah. He alone is their Creator. As His creation the whole human race is entitled to share His bounties.
The Light of His guidance was sent down for every place inhabited by human beings. Be it Persia or India, Greece or China, Arabia or Syria, His Prophets were sent to them and through their teachings they received Allah’s Commandments.

As a result of Islamic teachings every Muslim knows that he cannot become a true believer i.e. Muslim unless he believes in all the Prophets, all heavenly books, and all Divine revelation that came before Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). Those prophets who have been mentioned by name in the holy Quran, and those whose names have not been given by the holy Quran (whatever their names and their countries) are to be believed as true prophets of Allah.

Who are Muslims?

Look at the answers in the words of God
and who believe in what has been revealed to you and what has been revealed before you; (Chp.2:Vrs.4)

In the same Chapter of the holy Quran it is mentioned:

but righteousness is that one believes in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Book and the Prophets,(Chp.2:Vrs.177)

Towards the end of the Surah, the Revelation says that Prophet Muhammad and his followers:

The Messenger has believed in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers as well. All have believed in Allah and His angels and His Books and His Messengers.“We make no division between any of His Messengers,”(Chp.2:Vrs.285)

That means they cannot say they believe in some prophets and do not believe in others All Muslims have the command:

O you who believe, do believe in Allah and His Messenger and in the Book He has revealed to His Messenger and in the Books He has revealed earlier....(Chp.4: Vrs. 136).

Clayton Winton

Spokane, WA

#43989 Nov 25, 2012
This thread has been hijacked. It's so far-out of Topic, I'm out. Kind regards.

Farmington, CT

#43990 Nov 26, 2012
Clayton Winton wrote:
This thread has been hijacked. It's so far-out of Topic, I'm out. Kind regards.
We will miss you.

Farmington, CT

#43991 Nov 26, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Eric---btw, Hugh. American does not only refer to the U.S.
Definition of AMERICAN
1: an American Indian of North America or South America
2: a native or inhabitant of North America or South America
The last time I checked, the Greater Antilles were part of North America
You are really dense. The last time I checked, the Greater Antilles were part of America--which includes North and South America.
"A landmass in the western hemisphere that consists of the continents of North and South America joined by the Isthmus of Panama"
Now can you be serious?
I think you might be asking too much too soon of him. Perhaps you should start with introducing something more manageable like "reality" and then in time work yourself up to "America".

Farmington, CT

#43992 Nov 26, 2012
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm quite sure that your daddy wished that he pulled out.
My father was never a UN member.

United States

#43994 Nov 26, 2012
Brzezinski wrote in his book Between Two
Ages: America’s Role in the Technotronic Era , in which he
advocated the control of populations by an elite political class
via technotronic manipulation.
“The technotronic era involves the gradual appearance of a
more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated
by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be
possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every
citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing
even the most personal information about the citizen. These
files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the
authorities,” wrote Brzezinski.
“In the technotronic society the trend would seem to be
towards the aggregation of the individual support of millions
of uncoordinated citizens, easily within the reach of magnetic
and attractive personalities exploiting the latest
communications techniques to manipulate emotions and
control reason,” he wrote in the same book.

United States

#43995 Nov 26, 2012
Following is the interview in full detail:
Ummat: You have been accused of involvement in the attacks in
New York and Washington. What do you want to say about this?
If you are not involved, who might be?
I have already said that I am not involved in the 11
September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try
my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these
attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women,
children, and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam
strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children,
and other people.
Such a practice is forbidden ever in the course of a battle. It is
the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on
women, children, and common people of other faiths, particularly
the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the
last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the
United States and Israel.
There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which
witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been
done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya, and Bosnia?

United States

#43996 Nov 26, 2012
Whoever committed the act of 11 September are not the
friends of the American people. I have already said that we
are against the American system, not against its people,
whereas in these attacks, the common American people have
been killed.
According to my information, the death toll is much higher
than what the US government has stated. But the Bush
administration does not want the panic to spread. The United
States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks
within itself; the people who are a part of the US system, but
are dissenting against it. Or those who are working for some
other system; persons who want to make the present century as
a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity so that their
own civilization, nation, country, or ideology could survive. They
can be any one, from Russia to Israel and from India to Serbia.
In the US itself, there are dozens of well-organized and well-
equipped groups, which are capable of causing a large-scale
destruction. Then you cannot forget the American Jews, who are
annoyed with President Bush ever since the elections in Florida
and want to avenge him.
Then there are intelligence agencies in the US, which require
billions of dollars worth of funds from the Congress and the
government every year. This funding issue was not a big problem
till the existence of the former Soviet Union but after that the
budget of these agencies has been in danger.
They needed an enemy. So, they first started propaganda
against Usamah and Taleban and then this incident
happened. You see, the Bush administration approved a
budget of 40bn dollars. Where will this huge amount go? It
will be provided to the same agencies, which need huge funds
and want to exert their importance.

United States

#43997 Nov 26, 2012
Now they will spend the money for their expansion and for
increasing their importance. I will give you an example. Drug
smugglers from all over the world are in contact with the US
secret agencies. These agencies do not want to eradicate
narcotics cultivation and trafficking because their importance will
be diminished. The people in the US Drug Enforcement
Department are encouraging drug trade so that they could show
performance and get millions of dollars worth of budget. General
Noriega was made a drug baron by the CIA and, in need, he was
made a scapegoat. In the same way, whether it is President Bush
or any other US president, they cannot bring Israel to justice for
its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such
crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government
within the government in the United Sates? That secret
government must be asked as to who made the attacks.

United States

#43998 Nov 26, 2012
Ummat: The losses caused in the attacks in New York and
Washington have proved that giving an economic blow to the US
is not too difficult. US experts admit that a few more such attacks
can bring down the American economy. Why is al-Qa’idah not
targeting their economic pillars?
Usamah: I have already said that we are not hostile to the
United States. We are against the system, which makes other
nations slaves of the United States, or forces them to
mortgage their political and economic freedom. This system is
totally in control of the American Jews, whose first priority is
Israel, not the United States. It is simply that the American
people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to
live according to the principles and laws laid by them. So, the
punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it is Israel, which is
giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the US is not
uttering a single word.
Ummat: Why is harm not caused to the enemies of Islam through
other means, apart from the armed struggle? For instance,
inciting the Muslims to boycott Western products, banks,
shipping lines, and TV channels.

United States

#43999 Nov 26, 2012
Usamah: The first thing is that Western products could only be
boycotted when the Muslim fraternity is fully awakened and
organized. Secondly, the Muslim companies should become self-
sufficient in producing goods equal to the products of Western
companies. Economic boycott of the West is not possible unless
economic self-sufficiency is attained and substitute products are
brought out. You see that wealth is scattered all across the
Muslim world but not a single TV channel has been acquired
which can preach Islamic injunctions according to modern
requirements and attain an international influence. Muslim
traders and philanthropists should make it a point that if the
weapon of public opinion is to be used, it is to be kept in the
hand. Today’s world is of public opinion and the fates of nations
are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building
public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be

United States

#44000 Nov 26, 2012
Ummat: The entire propaganda about your struggle has so far
been made by the Western media. But no information is being
received from your sources about the network of Al-Qa’idah and
its jihadi successes. Would you comment?
Usamah: In fact, the Western media is left with nothing else. It
has no other theme to survive for a long time. Then we have
many other things to do. The struggle for jihad and the successes
are for the sake of Allah and not to annoy His bondsmen. Our
silence is our real propaganda. Rejections, explanations, or
corrigendum only waste your time and through them, the enemy
wants you to engage in things which are not of use to you. These
things are pulling you away from your cause.
The Western media is unleashing such a baseless
propaganda, which make us surprise but it reflects on what is
in their hearts and gradually they themselves become
captive of this propaganda. They become afraid of it and
begin to cause harm to themselves. Terror is the most
dreaded weapon in modern age and the Western media is
mercilessly using it against its own people. It can add fear and
helplessness in the psyche of the people of Europe and the
United States. It means that what the enemies of the United
States cannot do, its media is doing that. You can understand as
to what will be the performance of the nation in a war, which
suffers from fear and helplessness.

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