Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72037 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41591 Oct 7, 2012
Yūsuf Dhū Nuwas,(Arabic: يو&#15 87;ف ذو نو&#15 75;س‎)(als o Yūsuf Asar Dhū Nuwas or Dunaan;[1] ruled Circa 517–525) was the last king of the Himyarite kingdom of Yemen and a convert to Judaism.

Some sources state that he was the successor of Rabia ibn Mudhar, a member of the same dynasty; the archeologist Alessandro de Maigret believes he was a usurper.[2]Nashwad bin Sa'id al-Himyari stated that he killed his predecessor with a stiletto hidden in his sandal while his predecessor was seducing the handsome Yusuf in his chambers.[3] According to a number of medieval historians, who depend on the account of John of Ephesus, Dhū Nuwas, who was a convert to Judaism, announced that he would persecute the Christians living in his kingdom because Christian states persecuted his fellow co-religionists in their realms; a letter survives written by Simon, the bishop of Beth Arsham in 524 AD, recounts Dhū Nuwas'(where he is called Dimnon) persecution in Najran (modern al-Ukhdud in Saudi Arabia).[4] The persecution is apparently described and condemned in the Qur'an (al-Buruj:4).

According to the contemporary sources, after seizing the throne of the Himyarites, in ca. 518 or 523 Dhū Nuwas attacked the Aksumite (mainly Christian Ethiopians) garrison at Zafar, capturing them and burning their churches. He then moved against Najran, a Christian and Aksumite stronghold. After accepting the city's capitulation, he massacred those inhabitants who would not renounce Christianity. Estimates of the death toll from this event range up to 20,000 in some sources.

Dhū Nuwas then proceeded to write a letter to the Lakhmid king Mundhir of al-Ħīra and King Kavadh I of Persia, informing them of his deed and encouraging them to do likewise to the Christians under their dominion. Al-Mundhir received this letter in January 519[citation needed] as he was receiving an embassy from Constantinople seeking to forge a peace between the Roman Empire and Hira. He revealed the contents of the letter to the Roman ambassadors who were horrified at its contents. Word of the slaughter quickly spread throughout the Roman and Persian realms, and refugees from Najran even reached the court of the Roman emperor Justin I himself, begging him to avenge the martyred Christians.

The slaughter of the Axumite garrison in Zafar also provoked a response from Kaleb, King of Axum. Procopius reports that Kaleb (whom he calls Hellesthaeus) with the help of Justin, the Roman Emperor, collected a fleet and crossed from Africa to Yemen, where he defeated Dhū Nuwas about the year 520 or 525 (1.20). Kaleb then appointed his Christian South Arabian follower Sumuafa' Ashawa'(named Esimphaios by Procopius), to rule Yemen as his viceroy.

Arab tradition states that Dhū Nuwas committed suicide by riding his horse into the Red Sea. De Maigret reports that another South Arabian inscription from Husn al-Ghurab may indicate that he was killed in battle fighting against Kaleb's army.[5] De Maigret also reports that in 1951, three inscriptions were found just north of al-Ukhdud, which refer to a military campaign led by Dhū Nuwas (where he is called Yūsuf Asar Yathar), and are dated to the year 633 of the Himyarite era, equivalent to AD 518 or 523.[6]

So if the hadith narrates the najran christians faith under this converted king, as well as other sources than how can the hadith be about the life of the prophet, given that he was not born yet.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41592 Oct 7, 2012
Or for that matter the quraan.

As stated 10 AH they went to the masjid.
But later they were killed by the muslims.

History is messy.
But this is about the reliability of the very prophet and received tradition. Divine right so to say.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41593 Oct 7, 2012
Hmm
http://askaquestionto.us/question-answer/misc...
A whole body of literature besides the hadith sofar ignored.

Al-Imran is mentioned again.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41594 Oct 7, 2012
http://harunyahya.com/en/works/37873/our-prop... -(saas)-affectionate-protectiv e

Loving affectionate and protective because he gave them permission to pray (in the requisited former synagoge).
What was disputed has suddenly become a fact.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41595 Oct 7, 2012
Interactions between Prophet Muhammad and Christians

Ismail ACAR

The first interaction between Prophet Muhammad and Christians took place when he was traveling to Syria with his uncle Abu Talib. Later, the Prophet had meetings and dealings with several Christians and Christian groups, including Waraqa ibn Nawfal and the Najran Christians. The agreement on the part of the Abyssinian king, Negus, to accept Muslims as immigrants in his land during the Makkan period was also a significant interaction between a Christian king and the Prophet. Prior to the start of his mission, Prophet Muhammad had encounters with some Christians on a personal basis in his daily life as a pious merchant of Makka. However, these interactions consisted of occasional meetings and talks for the most part; they did not include any serious discussions or long-lasting communications.

Meeting with the Monk Bahira

The Prophet’s first meeting with a Christian occurred when he, as a young boy aged between nine or twelve, joined his uncle’s merchant caravan for a trip to Syria.1 The Christian whom the Prophet Muhammad encountered was the monk, Bahira,2 who was living in Bostra, a Roman colonial city.3 Monk Bahira was known for his belief that a prophet was soon to appear among the Arabs. Bahira had studied old manuscripts, where he had learned of the coming of a final prophet, and he was convinced that this prophet would appear in his own lifetime. He was particularly interested in the Arab merchants who visited Syria, to see if his conviction would come true.

Bahira’s attention was struck in particular by a caravan from Makka, which to his amazement, was shaded by a cloud that hovered closely above them. The cloud moved as the caravan moved, and did not go any further when they stopped; it was as if it were providing shade for a person or people in the group. When he also noticed that a tree lowered its branches over the caravan to provide further shade, he immediately realized that this caravan must contain an extraordinary person or persons. He invited all of the individuals in the caravan to a meal at his place, but none of their faces revealed the capacity of the expected Prophet. He inquired if there was anyone who had not joined the meal; the answer he received was that Muhammad had been left behind to watch the caravan. He was keen to see Muhammad; and when he actually saw him he realized that he carried all the signs that the awaited Prophet was to have, as describ-ed in his books.4 He told Muhammad’s uncle to take him back to Makka as soon as possible in order to guard him against potential enemies.5

This incident is used by some Western scholars as a basis to claim that Muhammad learned about the Judeo-Christian tradition from this monk, and that he later converted this knowl-edge into a new religion, i.e. Islam.6 However, it would not be logical or reasonable to adopt such an idea; Prophet Muhammad was far too young to acquire such an immense knowledge and the conversation between the monk and Muhammad was not a protracted one.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41596 Oct 7, 2012
Waraqa ibn Nawfal

Prophet Muhammad also had some encounters with one of the known Arab Christians in Makka, Waraqa ibn Nawfal. Waraqa was a respected man of his time and a well-known Christian scholar. When the Prophet received his first Qur’anic revelation on Mount Hira, it had a great impact on him. Following this unusual experience, he went home, feeling ill. His wife Khadija took the Prophet to Waraqa and told him about the revelation.7 After listening to Prophet Muhammad, Waraqa said that it was Gabriel, the Angel of Revelation, who had come to him, just as he had come to Moses, and he added,“I wish I were young.”8

Waraqa was an open-minded man; he converted from paganism to Christianity and also understood the features of the revelation that had been given to Muhammad. He sincerely supported Muhammad as a Christian believer when he understood that he was the awaited prophet, after Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them. Waraqa encouraged Muhammad to continue his call, without any doubt that God would protect him. This is a fine example of cooperation between a well known Christian scholar and the would-be Prophet.

The Abyssinian King (Negus) and The First Immigrants

When the Messenger of God began to declare his message openly, the Makkan pagans started to severely oppose him and the new Muslims, making many problems for them. Several Muslims died, with even more being humiliated and alienated. The Prophet realized that Makka was becoming a difficult place for Muslims to live in. He had his uncle as his protector; but there were many Muslims who had no protection from the aggressions of the Makkan pagans. He decided to send some of them to Abyssinia, especially those who had no effective protection; Abyssinia at the time was ruled by a Christian ruler. The Prophet told the group that King (Negus) of Abyssinia was a Christian, so they would be safe there.9 It is likely that Prophet Muhammad had some knowledge that the King was a peaceful and lenient ruler.

At the outset, eleven Muslims immigrated to Abyssinia. Later, they were joined by about 83 adult Muslims, women and men.10 Abyssinia was the Prophet’s choice; he felt that Christians were closer to Muslims than the Makkan pagans. When the first Muslim guests arrived there, they met with the King. Ja’far, as leader of the immigrants, gave the Prophet’s letter to the King, which read:“I have sent my cousin Ja’far to you, accompanied by a small number of Muslims; if he comes to you, receive them in hospitality ...” The King welcomed them and promised to protect them from their enemies. In the royal presence a question was put to them:“What do you say concerning Jesus?” The spokesman for the group replied,“concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.” When the King Negus heard this testimony, he picked up a twig from the ground and said,“I swear, the difference between what we believe about Jesus, the Son of Mary, and what you have said is not greater than the width of this twig.”11

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41597 Oct 7, 2012
When the Makkans heard that the Muslims had begun to live within the Christian community peacefully, they sent a delegation of learn-ed people to the King to persuade him to deport the Muslims from Abyssinia. There was a debate in front of the King between the Muslims and the Makkan delegation about what and how the Muslims believed. After the end of the debate, the King rejected the requests of the Makkans along with their gifts.12 This was the first helping hand for the young but frail Muslim community from a Christian ruler.

The Delegation of Najran Christians

No doubt the most important interaction between the Christians and the Prophet was the visit of the Najran delegation to Madina. Makka and Madina had a very small Christian population (Waraqa ibn Nawfal was one of them). The majority of Christian residents lived in Najran. The Prophet’s first important encounter with Christian clergies was in the 9th year of Hijra (AD 631), one or two years before his death.

Prophet Muhammad had been sending official letters to different countries and their rulers, inviting them to Islam. Among these were two different invitations that had been sent to Najran with Khaled ibn al-Walid and Ali ibn Abi Talib.13 At that time the Najran Christians had a highly organized religious life. Before Islam, foreign teachers had even visited the town, such as the Italian priest Gregentius, which had deepen-ed their religious knowledge.14 Few of the Najran Christians converted to Islam; the majority of them did not change their religion after these invitations. Prophet Muhammad sent a representative to them, Mughira ibn Shu’ba, who was sent to explain the invitations and the religion of Islam. After discussions with Mughira, the Christians of Najran decided to send a group of people to visit the Prophet. The delegation was made up of about 60 well-educated Christians: A bishop, his 45 scholars, and 15 men. Their intention was to learn the nature of the revelations Prophet Muhammad was receiving.15

When the Najran delegation reached Madina, they debated with the Prophet in an investigatory dialogue for two or three days in the mosque (Masjid) of Madina. Prophet Muhammad allow-ed them to pray in the mosque (Masjid al-Nabawi) where the Muslims prayed. The whole incident was the first occurrence of peaceful dialogue between Christians and Muslims; it was the first time that Christians prayed in a mosque.16

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41598 Oct 7, 2012
Prophet Muhammad warmly welcomed the Najran delegation and provided them with a place to stay in Madina, in a secure place close to his mosque. He even ordered that their tent be pitched for them by the Muslims. However, the Najran delegation and Prophet Muhammad were not able to reach a solution in theological terms. At the end of these exchanges, the Najran Christians told the Prophet:“O, Abu al-Qasim, we decided to leave you as you are and you leave us as we are. But send with us a man who can adjudicate things on our properties, because we accept you.” The delegation was granted their request and a written assurance was provided by the Prophet that their lives, property, and religion would be protected. He made witnesses sign this undertaking.17 The Najran Christians were the first Christian community with whom the Prophet had a jizyah 18 agreement. At the beginning of the meeting, they had disagreements with the Prophet about the concept of the Trinity, but later on they were able to make a social pact.19 This contract was an initial step that would lead to further developments.

Conclusion

As Muhammad Hamidullah states “of all the religions, the Prophet found Christianity the most sympathetic, although with certain serious reservations.”20 Accepting differences to be “as they are” was the first step in establishing peaceful relations between the Christians and Prophet Muhammad some fourteen hundred years ago.

It is apparent that Christians and Muslims believe in and pray to the same God, the Creator of the universe. Both Muslims and Christians ask for help and forgiveness from the same God. Both of them declare the importance of “peace”; so, it is only natural to expect that the followers of the two traditions would be able to establish peace together all around the world.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41599 Oct 7, 2012
Local problems do not stay local any longer. Today’s local issue will be tomorrow’s global problem. Struggles, wars, clashes, hunger, ecological crises, the threat of nuclear holocaust, and the colonization of humanity are not just a particular religion’s problem; they are worldwide problems that affect all believers.“There is no local situation that is not impinged upon by the wider cultural-political situation.”21 Understanding each other well, respecting others, and accepting others as they are would be a great step toward solving the global problems of the different religious communities. The more believers share and understand the global crisis the more suitable a habitat for human kind this world will become.

Footnotes

1 Martin Lings, Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources, Allen & Unwin, U.K., 1983, p. 29.
2 In some sources the name of the monk is mentioned “Sergius.” See: Mustafa Fayda,“Bahira” TDV Islam Ansiklopedisi, Istanbul 1991, IV, 486.
3 Under Alexander Severus (222-235) Bostra became a Roman colony. See: S. Vailhé,“Bostra,” The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume II, Online Edition, 1999 by Kevin Knight.
4 For details P.S: Ibn Hisham, Abd al-Malik, al-Sirat al Nabaviyyah, Egypt 1955, I, 180-183.
5 M. Lings, Muhammad, p. 29-30.
6 Mustafa Fayda,“Bahira” TDV Islam Ansiklopedisi, Istanbul 1991; Daniel, Islam and the West, p.101,105,109.
7 Ibn Hisham, I, 236-238.
8 Al-Bukhari, Muhammad ibn Isma’il, Sahih al-Bukhari, Dar al-Fikr,(Arabic-English Edition), I, 2-3
9 Ibn Hisham, I, 217-221.
10 Ibn Hisham, I, 221-230
11 R. Marston Speight, God Is One: The Way of Islam (New York: Friendship Press, 1989), pp. 1-2.
12 Ibn Hisham, I, 233-238
13 Name of a valley in North Yemen, where there was a Christian population inhabiting the highest range in the Arabian Peninsula at that time.
14 Hamidullah, Muhammad Rasulullah, p. 103.
15 Ibn Hisham, I, 575.
16 Ibn Hisham, I, 575-577.
17 http://www.dehai.org/archives/dehai_news_arch... oct02/0640.html,(12/11/2004)
18 Jizyah: A tax paid by non-Muslims living in a Muslim state. Since the non-Muslims are exempt from military service and taxes imposed on Muslims, they must pay this tax in compensation. It guarantees them security and protection. If the state cannot protect those who paid jizyah, then the amount they paid is returned to them.
19 Ahmet Bostanci, Hz Peygamber’in Gayri Muslimlerle Iliskileri, Ragbet Yayinlari, Istanbul 2001, p. 60, 167
20 Hamidullah, Muhammad Rasulullah, p. 76.
21 David Tracy,“Practical Theology in the Situation of Global Pluralism,” in (ed.) L. Mudge -J. Poling, The Promise of Practical Theology, Fortress Press 1983, p. 140.
Frijoles

South Glastonbury, CT

#41600 Oct 7, 2012
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
The atheist , secular and humanist communities have been following this guy for a while. The scariest part isn't his beliefs, since many evangelicals think that way and we're used to it. The scariest part is that he chairs the House Science Commitee..
BTW - he's been married four times. Guess he picks and chooses what he's going to follow from the bible.
Its all ok though.

The homophobic Jamaican known as Hughbe finds confort knowing that people sensible people like him exist.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41601 Oct 7, 2012
The martyrs of Najran are remembered in the Christian calendars and are even mentioned in the Surat al-Buruj of the Q'uran 85:4–8, where the persecutions are condemned and the steadfast believers are praised:

...slain were the men of the pit (Al-Ukhdood), the fire abounding in fuel, when they were seated over it, and were themselves witnesses of what they did with the believers. They took revenge on them because they believed in God the All-mighty, the All-laudable...

--Though again there is confusion as to who actually ruled. And we wonder why a curly head would go and kill the other Aksum curly heads living in Yemen, when they were treatened to be killed.
The negus of Abbessinia set the christians free...what is meant is that the najran became a dhimmy-state.
So again it was all about war and trade.

Logic does not enter in creationist thinking, someone said.
Never fear the quraan is here:
Because the same thing happened to Ibrahim under the hands of Nimrod in 13 c BC Assyria. As to the burning alive in a ditch filled with wood.
(were do they get that stuff)
http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php ?...

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41602 Oct 7, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its all ok though.
The homophobic Jamaican known as Hughbe finds confort knowing that people sensible people like him exist.
Then he will certainly be happy to hear that the good doctor speeched that the earth is only 9000 years old.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41603 Oct 7, 2012
What did actually happen. A strange interfaith dialogue ending in 5:51 not to make friends with jews and christians, with those under duress.
Hence the mentioning of apostle-prophet. General for his god.
The najran and jews came in a long line of delegations that were offered vazal-ship or war (let's curse each other)
For some reason muslims read muh-ahmed in the hebrew book. Well they read a lot in it, without ever having read it. So kept calling the jews of Medina liars and demanding magic prophetic tricks from them, to proof the tanakh true. As they did from the Najran christians. Islam is most likely based on nestorian faith, partways.
The ditch-story is not discussed at any point.
Later under Umar the christians were expelled to Syria.
Another interesting read.
https://docs.google.com/viewer...

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#41604 Oct 7, 2012
What it later became (the first narrative was overtaken with trial by prayer stories):
http://islam101.net/real-tales/304-the-ditche...
Al-Buruj would have these be the ditches of fire were the believers of Allah T'ala ended up.
And this remark i find very interesting.
If this originally meant god of the post/stake, thus of christians as i once debated.(onesided i might add) And not allah is one, since this would mean that believe in Allah means you'll burn/are punished.

Well given the same ideas in christianity about what to do till the last day...and on that last day.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41605 Oct 7, 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#The_evil_...
Titus was visited by gnats, kind of revenge literature.
I learned that Titus was a real badboy. Around 80 CE he also burned the public libraries instituted by August in 28 CE.
The talmud relates the story but in the shape of a discussion between an almighty king nimrod and Abram, juxtaposing them, a sort of illustration of proverbs 16:9 a.o. but only in the middleages.(1,8 million pages, more than a hundred contributors and spanning 7 generations.)

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41606 Oct 7, 2012
Short recall:
Allah Ta'ala is One. There is no one equal to Allah Ta'ala, either in being, qualities, actions, commands or names. Allah Ta'ala is "Waajibul Wujood", in other words, His Existence is compulsory. His destruction is impossible. Allah Ta'ala always was and always will be.
Allah Ta'ala is neither anyone's father, not is He anyone's son. Allah Ta'ala does not have a wife. Anyone who shows Allah Ta'ala to have a father or for Him to be anyone's son or to prove that Allah Ta'ala has a wife is a Kaafir (non-believer). If anyone thinks or imagines this to be possible, then that person he is misled and irreligious.
Allah Ta'ala is present and in existence. The term used to define this is "Hai". Everyone?s life and existence is in the control of Allah Ta'ala. He gives life and causes death to whomever He pleases.
It is also not necessary that everything in the power of Allah Ta'ala should come into existence even though it is possible for it to come into existence. An example of this is that if Allah Ta'ala wills, He may create a mountain made from solid gold, but there is no such mountain. However, if Allah Ta'ala wishes, then it will exist even though it does not exist at present.

end quote.
As a matter of fact we could read nothing that could also not be attributed to jesus.
Ah and we had the problem with jesus dying on the cross which proved that he could not be a god.
But for some reason someone had to die on the cross and jesus saved. WHY?
See the previous post, as to why the very first narrator on the najran xians was out of flavour.
Frijoles

South Glastonbury, CT

#41607 Oct 7, 2012
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
Then he will certainly be happy to hear that the good doctor speeched that the earth is only 9000 years old.
You know, there IS a reason that no major scientific discoveries or innovations ever came from the island of Jamaica.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41608 Oct 7, 2012
The actual verse:
66:12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanatfarjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohinawasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanatmina alqaniteena

Another clue. Either to leaving each religions to it's own time and place. As with the prophets.
Or an acknowledgement of Allah's plurality.
Though admittedly they did not get jewish philosophy and religion one bit.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41609 Oct 7, 2012
Why, i wonder, would someone living in Axum, Abessinia, working for the Negus, be an eyewitness to an event in Yemen?
Who's narrative is based upon an islamic tradition about Ibrahim.
Any story would be repeated about christians being martyrs, but i'm putting serious question marks as to the perpetrator.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41610 Oct 7, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You know, there IS a reason that no major scientific discoveries or innovations ever came from the island of Jamaica.
Lack of logic...
Ah silly me, you mean that they simply lacked time to evolve.

The music is pretty good though.

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