School Choice Plan targets San Fernando Middle School and 35 ot...

Established in 1896, San Fernando Middle School is viewed as a cornerstone of its community and a rite of passage for generations of residents who have passed through its halls.

[Herb]

As I've said before on these boards, this is an exercize in missing the point and a subtle slap at teachers and a step in the direction of privatizing the teaching profession so that teachers will end up with less money, less power, and less job security. There are many who would welcome such a change but it is not in the long-term best interest of the community to go back to the days when teachers were poor and vulnerable. It's already hard to get teachers in math, science, and special ed; where will we get new teachers? The Phillipines, I guess, but then you have the accent problem. No, the point that is being missed here is that a population that comes with an anti-academic orientation and uneducated parents will always be hard to edeucate up to middle class standards as reflected on paper-and-pencil tests, and repeated whacking at teachers and administrators will not change the situation.

[Tech_Daddy]

Herb, I agree with your pointing out the problem is the uneducated parents and the anti-academic and anti-cultural attitudes many of them possess. What is the solution? Good teachers will always have a job at good pay. It's the rampant system that puts unions and teacher security over the parents outrageous taxes, forcing parents to work 2 (Mom & Dad, if they are lucky)jobs; while the unions scream about losing their fat benefits, health care for free, and retirement packages most of us would envy. Change is tough, but that is what all of us outside of the education system have to deal with daily. If only your system would have shown success rather than decline. 50% drop out rate. The mindless, dysfunctional system that is LAUSD is a failure to most. Oddly, it's a success for the unions and their members, sort of anyway.

[OhYeah]

The solution is a moratorium on all immigration, illegal and legal, to allow those here time to assimilate without completely destroying the existing culture. It's not the teachers, the union, or even downtown bureaucrats, it's a formerly successful educational system that's been inundated by an uneducable mass who cannot grasp, or appreciate, the concept of being learned. That leaves two choices: Either lower standards and extend the schooling time or have low test scores and a large drop out rate. If mass immigration continues unabated, the unionized educational system, once the envy of the world, will be just one of many systems to break down. Our legal system, among others, is also breaking down and, you might have noticed, your taxes will continue to increase as you pay for these people not only in money but in the cost of your culture and the future of your children. Unions are the least of our problems, in fact, they are keeping the last of the middle class alive.

[clear]

OhYeah wrote:

The solution is a moratorium on all immigration, illegal and legal, to allow those here time to assimilate without completely destroying the existing culture. It's not the teachers, the union, or even downtown bureaucrats, it's a formerly successful educational system that's been inundated by an uneducable mass who cannot grasp, or appreciate, the concept of being learned. That leaves two choices: Either lower standards and extend the schooling time or have low test scores and a large drop out rate. If mass immigration continues unabated, the unionized educational system, once the envy of the world, will be just one of many systems to break down. Our legal system, among others, is also breaking down and, you might have noticed, your taxes will continue to increase as you pay for these people not only in money but in the cost of your culture and the future of your children. Unions are the least of our problems, in fact, they are keeping the last of the middle class alive.

Agree with most of it. We should also add that part of the problem is the free access to the school system. Lets modify it. Change the State Constitution if need be. Here is a proposal. School is free the first time around. Any Ds or Fs have to be paid for at the Daily fee. Any absence over 5per year without a medical verification must be reimbursed. Destroyed books have to be paid for. Once parents have to be financially accountable they will provide the back up to education. Also bill for defacing school grounds.

[Tech_Daddy]

clear wrote:

<quoted text>
Agree with most of it. We should also add that part of the problem is the free access to the school system. Lets modify it. Change the State Constitution if need be. Here is a proposal. School is free the first time around. Any Ds or Fs have to be paid for at the Daily fee. Any absence over 5per year without a medical verification must be reimbursed. Destroyed books have to be paid for. Once parents have to be financially accountable they will provide the back up to education. Also bill for defacing school grounds.

You both miss the real point here. The unions have enjoyed the increase in students because of the ADA gives them money for each student. The teacher's union have not protested the impact on legal/resident immigrant students, because they just don't care. They want more money for themselves; period. No merit pay tells the true story. The unions want all their members to be equal, pay wise. Academic performance is a joke in LAUSD. As is intellectual honesty.

Gov't employee union are a farce as they are already covered by the body that creates the labor laws. They are not needed except to be used against the tax payers. Private industry unions at least may have a legitimate reason to exist. If you look at modern, not turn of the century times, you will see, the unions have provided the worker very little in exchange for all the workers' money they waste on big salaries for themselves.

[LA Teacher]

Ms. Provencio and other parents better fight like hell. The problem is, may immigrant parents are passive and the middle class is disappearing, two reasons why this takeover is happening. I am surprised they are not fighting this. They are accepting it. Don't complain if you don't want to fight. The real reason for this is to take power out of the hands of teachers and put it in the hands of testing companies and private corporations. But Americans are stupid and will let this go on.

[OhYeah]

Tech_Daddy wrote:

<quoted text> You both miss the real point here. The unions have enjoyed the increase in students because of the ADA gives them money for each student. The teacher's union have not protested the impact on legal/resident immigrant students, because they just don't care. They want more money for themselves; period. No merit pay tells the true story. The unions want all their members to be equal, pay wise. Academic performance is a joke in LAUSD. As is intellectual honesty.
Gov't employee union are a farce as they are already covered by the body that creates the labor laws. They are not needed except to be used against the tax payers. Private industry unions at least may have a legitimate reason to exist. If you look at modern, not turn of the century times, you will see, the unions have provided the worker very little in exchange for all the workers' money they waste on big salaries for themselves.

No, you're missing the point. Get off of your mania re unions and see the big picture. If you think today's academic performance is a joke, just wait and see what your society will look like in a few more years as the district dumbs the curriculum down further to accommodate the endless foreign population. There will be no need for merit pay because the student body will be incapable of achieving any academic achievements worthy of that term. The real education today, that you or I would recognize as such, is found at private schools as no one will send their children, if they have any means, to a public school. That is a real shame as public schools were once the shining example of a great republic, but the hordes of the great unwashed have overwhelmed the golden goose and the goose is dying, union or no union. No matter how much merit pay is offered, one cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear especially when the sty is overrun. This ruination of Rome came from within not from without by hordes of foreigners. History does tend to repeat itself.

[Justice]

The students are more than capable of achieving.
The country has lost sight of how students from
diverse economic and social backgrounds were
successful prior to the emphasis on standardized
testing. The technological developments were
initiated by students who were educated in both
public and private education,and the emphasis was
not directed toward standardized test scores. Think
about the last time you visited an accountant,lawyer,or doctor-Did you ask what his
or her test scores were on their licensing exams ?
Many students have some academic weaknesses that
need to be improved,but they also have superior
skills in using computers and other forms of technology. The students in LAUSD are no different
from students across the nation (urban, suburban,or
rural)and will improve,but the students also must be given options to pursue technological,and trade
school curriculums that prepare students who decide
not to attend college ,initially. to be trained to
earn a living. Some students are not as motivated,
because they are receiving a great deal of consumer goods without the condition of a strong
work ethic being expected of them. The anti-immigration sentiment is wrong and disturbing to read.

[Herb]

OhYeah, you make so much sense. The last immigration moratorium was from 1924 to 1965 and during that time, once the depression was past, the middle class organized itself into unions and did very well. In a related vein, our PC media and schools do not teach that Cesar Chavez was a union leader, not a civil rights leader, and he understood supply and demand enough to press continually for immigration restriction to keep his members' wages up.

[OhYeah]

Herb wrote:

OhYeah, you make so much sense. The last immigration moratorium was from 1924 to 1965 and during that time, once the depression was past, the middle class organized itself into unions and did very well. In a related vein, our PC media and schools do not teach that Cesar Chavez was a union leader, not a civil rights leader, and he understood supply and demand enough to press continually for immigration restriction to keep his members' wages up.

That is correct. I know for a fact that Cesar was totally opposed to illegal immigration as it hurt his cause and weakened his ability to unionize the field workers. Just like today, the farmers could avoid the consequences of a strike by importing workers from Mexico and tried to undermine every effort for these people, who were citizens, to improve the hideous conditions in which they had to live. He was not about civil rights at all, as you pointed out, but was about the economic rights of citizens of the fields.

[OhYeah]

Justice wrote:

The students are more than capable of achieving.
The country has lost sight of how students from
diverse economic and social backgrounds were
successful prior to the emphasis on standardized
testing. The technological developments were
initiated by students who were educated in both
public and private education,and the emphasis was
not directed toward standardized test scores. Think
about the last time you visited an accountant,lawyer,or doctor-Did you ask what his
or her test scores were on their licensing exams ?
Many students have some academic weaknesses that
need to be improved,but they also have superior
skills in using computers and other forms of technology. The students in LAUSD are no different
from students across the nation (urban, suburban,or
rural)and will improve,but the students also must be given options to pursue technological,and trade
school curriculums that prepare students who decide
not to attend college ,initially. to be trained to
earn a living. Some students are not as motivated,
because they are receiving a great deal of consumer goods without the condition of a strong
work ethic being expected of them. The anti-immigration sentiment is wrong and disturbing to read.

No offensive, Justice, but your grammatically incorrect and rambling idea of writing proves my point. But, of course, YOU think your educated - not. You don't even know what you don't know.

[OhYeah]

P.S. Justice. One's writing reveals one's thinking.

[Tech_Daddy]

Justice wrote:

The students are more than capable of achieving.
The country has lost sight of how students from
diverse economic and social backgrounds were
successful prior to the emphasis on standardized
testing. The technological developments were
initiated by students who were educated in both
public and private education,and the emphasis was
not directed toward standardized test scores. Think
about the last time you visited an accountant,lawyer,or doctor-Did you ask what his
or her test scores were on their licensing exams ?
Many students have some academic weaknesses that
need to be improved,but they also have superior
skills in using computers and other forms of technology. The students in LAUSD are no different
from students across the nation (urban, suburban,or
rural)and will improve,but the students also must be given options to pursue technological,and trade
school curriculums that prepare students who decide
not to attend college ,initially. to be trained to
earn a living. Some students are not as motivated,
because they are receiving a great deal of consumer goods without the condition of a strong
work ethic being expected of them. The anti-immigration sentiment is wrong and disturbing to read.

Yes, a vocational track for students should be apparent, but to LAUSD, it is not.

[Justice]

OhYeah wrote:

<quoted text>
No offensive, Justice, but your grammatically incorrect and rambling idea of writing proves my point. But, of course, YOU think your educated - not. You don't even know what you don't know.

I accept your criticism,but the phrase should have been no offense and not offensive.
I guess we both can learn a little humility,but the point of writing a post is in communicating ideas which you failed to discuss in your post (Check the grammatical
rules regarding the use of double negatives :)).

[Justice]

OhYeah wrote:

P.S. Justice. One's writing reveals one's thinking.

P.S. Thought preceeded structured writing historically. I guess under your
logic Socrates was less a critical thinker than Plato.

[OhYeah]

Justice wrote:

<quoted text>
I accept your criticism,but the phrase should have been no offense and not offensive.
I guess we both can learn a little humility,but the point of writing a post is in communicating ideas which you failed to discuss in your post (Check the grammatical
rules regarding the use of double negatives :)).

Okay, you're right on the misuse of the word "offensive." That was an editing mistake as I originally wrote "not to be offensive," but where are these double negatives?
As to your argument regarding Socrates and Plato, absurd! Grammar rules came from Grecian speech, i. e., how Socrates most likely spoke. We all need to be more careful of what and how we think and, therefore, how we express those ideas.

[Justice]

OhYeah wrote:

<quoted text>
Okay, you're right on the misuse of the word "offensive." That was an editing mistake as I originally wrote "not to be offensive," but where are these double negatives?
As to your argument regarding Socrates and Plato, absurd! Grammar rules came from Grecian speech, i. e., how Socrates most likely spoke. We all need to be more careful of what and how we think and, therefore, how we express those ideas.

The issue is not where grammar rules originated from,but in the thoughts and concepts
expressed. You made the assertion that the way a person wrote defined the individual's
ability to logically think and express critical thinking. The ability to write is important,but I posed the thoughts concerning Socrates to demonstrate that many individuals can logically formulate ideas without writing those ideas down.
Good writing also demands that the writer explain and give detailed reasons when
asserting an opinion. An argument isn't absurd,because you state that it is absurd.
The main idea that I expressed was that some students are struggling in some academic
areas,but that students in LAUSD are no less capable of learning than students around
the country. Many of the students have superior talents in computer technology than
students twenty years ago. The main problem is one of student motivation and proper
guidance.

[OhYeah]

Oh, you're trying to say thesis and support which you will notice I supplied. Hence, I said your argument was absurd because since speech predates writing, the Grecian grammar was already formulated so that Socrates most likely spoke correctly, and hence, would have written correctly. You are not thinking logically.

While I'm sure many students have superior talents in computer technology, certainly more so than students from twenty years ago, but if they can't think clearly then they can't speak or write clearly and that's a huge problem. As you may know, the jobs in computer technology are in India so how is that going to affect these students? Indian students know how to think, read and write - do you suppose that is why the industry has gone there and not stayed here? Do you know that many U.S. industries have all their office work airmailed to Ireland because the Irish general population is literate? There's no way around this problem unless you consider pushing a button with a picture of a cow on it at your local hamburger chain computer technology.

[Justice]

Oh Yeah-Give me better argument than writing skills
are the reason why engineering companies have outsourced jobs overseas. Many experienced engineers with great writing abilities lost jobs
not based on their communicating skills,but because
engineers overseas did the same job for $20,000
and the starting pay for a "green" engineer out of
college was at least $60,000. You also know that the ability to speak well does not necessarily translate into the ability to write well. The Greeks ability to think logically in was not
based upon grammar,but upon observations and classification of information (data). Every student
should seek to master the English language,but a
student can be mathematically brilliant and have
weaknesses in writing.In short, the ability to
communicate in writing does not mean that an individual is more intelligent,or brighter than
an individual struggling in that area.

[Justice]

Typo-Give me a better argument