Global warming 'undeniable,' scientists say

Scientists from around the world are providing even more evidence of global warming, one day after President Barack Obama renewed his call for climate legislation. Full Story

Since: Sep 11

Rogers, MN

#35908 Tuesday Sep 2
This is interesting. Ice ages, warming trends, make up my damn mind. The cynic in me says that based on the massive amount of BS and press and scare tactics and politics involved, that it is, as usual, all about the money.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt...
Obskeptic

Farmington, MI

#35909 Tuesday Sep 2
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>
Anything in nature has some varibility. But you can distinguish (or more rational people can) between the seasonal high and low of a river stream and the devastation of a 100 year flood.
<quoted text>
Build a dam... there ARE some thing we ARE capable of doing, including creating the problem which would not exist without the 'forcing' of man made emissions so it is just common sense that we can moderate those changes to moderate their effectrs. No arrogance needed. YOU are arrogant in saying we cannot because YOU don't want it.
<quoted text>
A good government (i.e a Democracy responsive to the 'public good' would do much to alleviate the problem. It is the selfish and blind like you that prevent government form achieving anything since you promote the self interest of a few fossil fools along with yourself.
<quoted text>
One would never trust a government which is why you have to have an active Democracy (where the will of the people determines the goals and policies of those charged with leading) that can implement positive change. But not as long as barbarian keep preventing it with nonsense like yours (i.e denial of the facts and the political will to do the right thing).
So your solution is what, get rid of capitalism maybe? Empower a one world government? Put government in control of how the population of the world is permitted to live? Amongst the hundreds of governments of the world, how about pointing out to me the good one you believe serves as your example, and how you would force that government on the rest of the world? So you believe utopia is achievable and Barbarians can be tamed, and you think I'm the crazy one? You've obviously been smoking to much of your facts.
litesong

Everett, WA

#35910 Tuesday Sep 2
obsessed septic wrote:
your solution.....get rid of capitalism....one world government?
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.

“Don't worry about me, I"m fine”

Since: Aug 13

middle of nowhere

#35911 Wednesday Sep 3
I invite all the global warming supporters to come and camp next to Mil Lacs lake for the winter, in light of the farmer's almanac forecast for the winter, why if global warming is so true then a tent should do it for them!!!!
Obskeptic

Farmington, MI

#35912 Wednesday Sep 3
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.
Very revealing answer there name caller. Real deep and intellectual.
dont drink the koolaid

Minneapolis, MN

#35913 Wednesday Sep 3
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.
Who do you think has the resources and the ability to wield such awesome power as climate control?
How about The United States Military Industrial Complex (USMIC)?
And if not the USMIC what do you think the a Pentagon is going to do about not controlling the most powerful weapon (climate control) ever imagined?

“No Answers, Only Questions”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#35914 Wednesday Sep 3
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
So your solution is what, get rid of capitalism maybe? Empower a one world government? Put government in control of how the population of the world is permitted to live? Amongst the hundreds of governments of the world, how about pointing out to me the good one you believe serves as your example, and how you would force that government on the rest of the world? So you believe utopia is achievable and Barbarians can be tamed, and you think I'm the crazy one? You've obviously been smoking to much of your facts.
Ecological suicide is a by-product of capitalism.

Corporations cannot be induced to subordinate profit to "save the earth." And upper management faces relentless pressure from investor-shareholders to maximize profits.

It's a complex problem. To generate profit, business must cut labor costs and utilize natural resources regardless of damage caused. Hence, corporations have shipped jobs overseas and are efficiently liquidating every natural resource on the planet to maximize profit; they have no option, it's what shareholders demand.

The minute anyone suggests companies like Dow Chemical reduce their carbon footprint, they’re talking about violating capitalists’“freedom” to produce and sell whatever they like, and consumer “free choice” to buy whatever they want. Even liberal environmentally-minded college professors do not want to screw with the market -- that could lead to devastation of their financial portfolio.

To solve the problem of Co2 emissions and other environmental damage, we must eliminate the freedom of capitalists to produce and sell as they please. You are appalled, yes? Isn't such a philosophy incompatible with capitalist property and capitalist organization of production? Wouldn't it require a restructuring of our economy?

If capitalist growth can’t be stopped, and if the logic of capitalism for profit is destroying the planet, should we ignore the consequences or rethink an ideology that no longer works?

It's time to go back to the drawing board and abandon the antiquated idea of steady-state capitalism. Socialism? Communism? Call it whatever you like. We need a practical, economically sound ecological economy, one geared to need, not profit.

You have a choice -- save the present capitalistic model motivated by greed and profit regardless of harm caused or save yourself, the planet.

You can't save both.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#35915 Wednesday Sep 3
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
So your solution is what, get rid of capitalism maybe?
That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said. I promoted Democracy (a political system) and you responded with an attack on an economic system (Capitalism).
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
Empower a one world government?
That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said.
Nothing was said about a global government.
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
Put government in control of how the population of the world is permitted to live?
That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said. Though yes, government is the will of the people to limit the freedom of the individual. No matter how you might want to kill your neighbor or competitor, the rule of Democracy says you are limited to bad words.

Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
Amongst the hundreds of governments of the world, how about pointing out to me the good one you believe serves as your example.
At no point did I suggest that there was a real 'Democracy' out there to serve as an example. Fact is that if we CAN make a proper Democracy with government an 'employee' of the public good, it will be the first. But what I said about WHY we need a Democracy (instead of the current oligarchies, plutocracies and fascism's) is still obviously true.

Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
How you would force that government on the rest of the world?

That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said.If a Democracy can be created it will be because the current regime cannot stand against the united will of it's citizens. And it will be only if a wise enough leader can prevent the carving of the new regime into power blocks as happened in revolutions such as Egypt populist uprising. A key fact is that 'electing your dictator' does not work. A Democracy must be dynamic and powered BY an involved and empowered public. People who day that it cannot work and beside, they are busy doing important things like griping and heckling without though (if the shoe fits, you can wear it..) cannot form a Democracy, true. YOU will never be the spark that drives it. But it is not impossible or even improbably that one will eventually form. Similar governments (though generally without universal suffrage) are speckled throughout history.

[QUOTE who="Obskeptic"]< quoted text>
So you believe utopia is achievable and Barbarians can be tamed, and you think I'm the crazy one?
What makes you think that even a true Democracy will be 'Utopia'????? You will STILL have competing objectives and self-centered 'organizers' and influences. But it wold be MORE capable of dealing with issues such as AGW than the current back room dealings.
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
You think I'm the crazy one? You've obviously been smoking to much of your facts.
NO. I think that you are the one who has not bothered to think or to parse the semantics of what is a clear and cogent post. Your failure even to comprehend what WAS said and the introduction of issues that were NOT discussed shows that you would help most by dropping out of the thread.
dont drink the koolaid

Minneapolis, MN

#35916 Wednesday Sep 3
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>

NO. I think that you are the one who has not bothered to think or to parse the semantics of what is a clear and cogent post. Your failure even to comprehend what WAS said and the introduction of issues that were NOT discussed shows that you would help most by dropping out of the thread.
Well stated.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#35917 Wednesday Sep 3
Wanderer2452 wrote:
<quoted text>
Ecological suicide is a by-product of capitalism.
It would be more accurate to say that Capitalism tends to

1: Be exploitive. No resource can be valued for it's long term use, only the short term profit (often from destroying it). This also drives it's strenght when a lot of rich resources (i.e the US before industrialization) are there for the exploiting.

2: Drive up 'externalized costs' such as pollution. By keeping them 'off the books' Capitalism (and those who control the laws through their riches) increase their income while pushing the costs onto the public. And because pollution is 'off the books' it is often badly managed and worse than it has to be.

but can corporations and their owners be brough to heel? Possibly. But only by a Democracy where the power is in the hands of the 'public good' as a counter to individual greed.

“No Answers, Only Questions”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#35918 Wednesday Sep 3
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be more accurate to say that Capitalism tends to
1: Be exploitive. No resource can be valued for it's long term use, only the short term profit (often from destroying it). This also drives it's strenght when a lot of rich resources (i.e the US before industrialization) are there for the exploiting.
2: Drive up 'externalized costs' such as pollution. By keeping them 'off the books' Capitalism (and those who control the laws through their riches) increase their income while pushing the costs onto the public. And because pollution is 'off the books' it is often badly managed and worse than it has to be.
but can corporations and their owners be brough to heel? Possibly. But only by a Democracy where the power is in the hands of the 'public good' as a counter to individual greed.
You raise some good points.

The continued depletion rate of earth's natural resources is not sustainable. Societal collapse occurs when people ignore their impact on their environment. History is replete with examples, from Easter Island to the Anasazi, civilizations that refused to change, civilizations that thought the 'good life' would last forever.

The failure lies in "short-term thinking" policies implemented by leaders, how to satisfy people in the here and now. You want to be warm this winter, yes? You want food on your table, yes? All immediate needs, no "long-term thinking" necessary.

Your immediate needs are met by businesses that extract oil, natural gas, and coal from the earth. Their products are sold to consumers all over the world. So, all people have a hand in contributing to the Co2 problem. It's human nature to want what we want -- now.

This time around, if something isn't done in the near future, it's not some isolated society in the Pacific that will collapse, it's the world.

Can business be "brought to heel?" For that to occur an example must be set, people must first be willing to sacrifice for the common good, delay short-term needs. Only then can they demand corporations do the same.

Today I'll bring my cloth bags to the grocery store, eat vegetables instead of T-bone. And the deniers will ridicule me.

You?
litesong

Everett, WA

#35919 Wednesday Sep 3
cant fake its lack of education wrote:
all about the money.......
Exxon has made as much as $40 billion in a year, not including billion dollar hedge fund schemes, & massive hundred million dollar bonus, stock & retirement packages to upper crust paper shufflers & people shovers, not available to those who build wealth, scientists, technologists, blue-collar workers, secretaries, & minimum wage workers.

“Let's X Change!!”

Since: Feb 09

B4 HOPE Is Gone...

#35920 Wednesday Sep 3
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.
drink some more ethanol, creep killing bird killer.

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35921 Wednesday Sep 3
SpaceBlues wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, well, guess who continues to speak gibberish? YOU.
:-)
Also, believe this, I feel sorry for no-science deniers whose view of science talk is gibberish. It is a big hurdle in communication.
However, this might be even a bigger problem:
Apparently, the world’s two largest countries, each with populations about a billion more than ours — China and India — aren’t buying into the crisis. They are doing next to nothing to deal with it.
Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/08/30/60783...
exactly, numbnuts, so I'm supposed to get all hysterical about it like you? The USA has done plenty already, why don't all you hysterics stop using carbon fuels?

When I see Al Snore riding a bicycle cross country I'll sign on.

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35922 Wednesday Sep 3
Wanderer2452 wrote:
<quoted text>
Damn if I know what the hell you want.
The claim is, "Global warming is undeniable.'' I agree.
Deniers say it is a hoax. I disagree and request evidence that refutes the science, specifically the long-term effect of man-made CO2 gases in the atmosphere.
So far I've encountered rhetorical questions, ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and needling. I return such compliments tit-for-tat. Fair, yes?
40-50 years ago, society and the government were concerned about the environment. Considerable efforts were made to conquer a number problems including ozone layer depletion, air pollution, and industrial/auto emissions.
Then Reagan happened and environmentalism was equated to Communism, Capitalism became king, and corporations convinced the U.S. Government not to participate in the Kyoto protocol -- it would hurt business.
So, here we are, faced with a problem that climate change deniers refuse to consider for various reasons. There's little time to waste.
Either the world starts to cut emissions NOW or we continue playing this dangerous shell game.
Your thoughts?
yes, yur ill informed and hysterical, take 2 Midols and calm down. We'll be fine, if demorats don't destroy the country entirely.

Illegal alien hordes don't give a crap about globull warming.
Yur thoughts?

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35923 Wednesday Sep 3
Wanderer2452 wrote:
<quoted text>
Dinosaurs are extinct?
I didn't know that. Thanks.
http://www.artisticglobe.com/wp-content/uploa...
You might want to read "The Origin of Species" before making more absurd statements.
The feeble objections made by you and other posters, the outlandish unsupported claims, the outright twisting of facts, the inane arguments, demonstrate an ignorance of the science behind climate change.
You're not concerned with the possible long term effect of rapidly raising Co2 levels. And you're probably right, you don't have to worry, it won't affect you. The cumulative effect of modern man's contribution to Co2 levels will probably take centuries. And you won't be alive.
So, let your confirmation bias drown out reality.
And the fact that birds are dinosaurs.
preposterous pap, T rex was a dinosaur

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35924 Wednesday Sep 3
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
Exxon has made as much as $40 billion in a year, not including billion dollar hedge fund schemes, & massive hundred million dollar bonus, stock & retirement packages to upper crust paper shufflers & people shovers, not available to those who build wealth, scientists, technologists, blue-collar workers, secretaries, & minimum wage workers.
'good for them, how much has Al Snore made with his lies? Exxon produces something, warmers produce nothing but hot air.
LIbEralS

Saint Paul, MN

#35925 Thursday Sep 4
The tolerant left:

Sir Paul Nurse, a Nobel Prize winner and the incoming president of the British Science Association and current president of the Royal Society -“serial offenders” casting man-made climate change in a skeptical light “should be crushed and buried.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/articl...

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35926 Thursday Sep 4
Peer-Reviewed Survey Finds Majority Of Scientists Skeptical - Forbes
www.forbes.com/.../peer-reviewed-survey-finds ... ;
Forbes
Feb 13, 2013 - They are skeptical that the scientific debate is settled regarding the IPCC .... Just like calling AGW “deniers” instead of skeptics, of which is what ...

It is becoming clear that not only do many scientists dispute the asserted global warming crisis, but these skeptical scientists may indeed form a scientific consensus.

Don’t look now, but maybe a scientific consensus exists concerning global warming after all. Only 36 percent of geoscientists and engineers believe that humans are creating a global warming crisis, according to a survey reported in the peer-reviewed Organization Studies. By contrast, a strong majority of the 1,077 respondents believe that nature is the primary cause of recent global warming and/or that future global warming will not be a very serious problem.

The survey results show geoscientists (also known as earth scientists) and engineers hold similar views as meteorologists. Two recent surveys of meteorologists (summarized here and here) revealed similar skepticism of alarmist global warming claims.

According to the newly published survey of geoscientists and engineers, merely 36 percent of respondents fit the “Comply with Kyoto” model. The scientists in this group “express the strong belief that climate change is happening, that it is not a normal cycle of nature, and humans are the main or central cause.”

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35927 Thursday Sep 4
Check out Al Gore’s quotes…predictions/factoids… and see how they have held up to fact checking:

#1 In 2008, Al Gore boldly declared to a German audience that “the entire North ‘polarized’ cap will disappear in 5 years.”(Needless to say, that did not happen. In fact, the ice cap in the Arctic actually got larger this year.)

#2 “CO2 is the exhaling breath of our civilization, literally.… Changing that pattern requires a scope, a scale, a speed of change that is beyond what we have done in the past.”(Actually, without carbon dioxide life on earth would not exist.)

#3 “The planet has a fever. If your baby has a fever, you go to the doctor. If the doctor says you need to intervene here, you don’t say,‘Well, I read a science fiction novel that told me it’s not a problem.’ If the crib’s on fire, you don’t speculate that the baby is flame retardant. You take action.”(It sounds like what Al Gore really needs is more cowbell.)

#4 During a speech at NYU Law School in 2006, Al Gore made the following statement:“Many scientists are now warning that we are moving closer to several “tipping points” that could — within as little as 10 years — make it impossible for us to avoid irretrievable damage to the planet’s habitability for human civilization.”

#5 “Here is the truth: The Earth is round; Saddam Hussein did not attack us on 9/11; Elvis is dead; Obama was born in the United States; and the climate crisis is real.”

#6 “The interior of the earth is extremely hot – several million degrees.”(It actually peaks out at about 11,000 degrees.)

#7 “There is an air of unreality in debating these arcane points when the world is changing in such dramatic ways right in front of our eyes because of global warming.”

#8 “It would be an enormous relief if the recent attacks on the science of global warming actually indicated that we do not face an unimaginable calamity requiring large-scale, preventive measures to protect human civilization as we know it.”

#9 “The survival of the United States of America as we know it is at risk. And even more — if more should be required — the future of human civilization is at stake.”

#10 “We ought to approach this challenge [of global warming] with a sense of profound joy and gratitude: that we are the generation about which, a thousand years from now, philharmonic orchestras and poets and singers will celebrate by saying, they were the ones that found it within themselves to solve this crisis and lay the basis for a bright and optimistic human future.”

As time goes by, the scientific evidence continues to mount. It is becoming painfully evident that the theory of man-made global warming simply is not true.

Snore is an idiot, a flim flam man, a liar and a very wealthy man.

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