Global warming 'undeniable,' scientis...

Global warming 'undeniable,' scientists say

There are 37840 comments on the TwinCities.com story from Jul 29, 2010, titled Global warming 'undeniable,' scientists say. In it, TwinCities.com reports that:

Scientists from around the world are providing even more evidence of global warming, one day after President Barack Obama renewed his call for climate legislation.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at TwinCities.com.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#35906 Sep 2, 2014
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
If you had all of todays modern technology and the ability to dedicate all of the worlds wealth to it, do you think there is any group of scientists that could have prevented the dinosaurs from going extinct? Give some serious and objective thought to what you think man can do to control the weather and the climate on a short or long term basis. That alone should make a skeptic out of you.
Dinosaurs are extinct?

I didn't know that. Thanks.

http://www.artisticglobe.com/wp-content/uploa...

You might want to read "The Origin of Species" before making more absurd statements.

The feeble objections made by you and other posters, the outlandish unsupported claims, the outright twisting of facts, the inane arguments, demonstrate an ignorance of the science behind climate change.

You're not concerned with the possible long term effect of rapidly raising Co2 levels. And you're probably right, you don't have to worry, it won't affect you. The cumulative effect of modern man's contribution to Co2 levels will probably take centuries. And you won't be alive.

So, let your confirmation bias drown out reality.

And the fact that birds are dinosaurs.
LIbEralS

Minneapolis, MN

#35907 Sep 2, 2014
Remember the polar vortex, the huge mass of Arctic air that can plunge much of the U.S. into the deep freeze? You might have to get used to it.

A new study says that as the world gets warmer, parts of North America, Europe and Asia could see more frequent and stronger visits of that cold air. Researchers say that's because of shrinkage in ice in the seas off Russia. Less ice would let more energy go from the ocean into the air, and that would weaken the atmospheric forces that usually keep cold air trapped in the Arctic.

The study was published Tuesday in the journal Nature Communications.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/273596361.h...

Since: Sep 11

Rogers, MN

#35908 Sep 2, 2014
This is interesting. Ice ages, warming trends, make up my damn mind. The cynic in me says that based on the massive amount of BS and press and scare tactics and politics involved, that it is, as usual, all about the money.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt...
Obskeptic

Livonia, MI

#35909 Sep 2, 2014
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>
Anything in nature has some varibility. But you can distinguish (or more rational people can) between the seasonal high and low of a river stream and the devastation of a 100 year flood.
<quoted text>
Build a dam... there ARE some thing we ARE capable of doing, including creating the problem which would not exist without the 'forcing' of man made emissions so it is just common sense that we can moderate those changes to moderate their effectrs. No arrogance needed. YOU are arrogant in saying we cannot because YOU don't want it.
<quoted text>
A good government (i.e a Democracy responsive to the 'public good' would do much to alleviate the problem. It is the selfish and blind like you that prevent government form achieving anything since you promote the self interest of a few fossil fools along with yourself.
<quoted text>
One would never trust a government which is why you have to have an active Democracy (where the will of the people determines the goals and policies of those charged with leading) that can implement positive change. But not as long as barbarian keep preventing it with nonsense like yours (i.e denial of the facts and the political will to do the right thing).
So your solution is what, get rid of capitalism maybe? Empower a one world government? Put government in control of how the population of the world is permitted to live? Amongst the hundreds of governments of the world, how about pointing out to me the good one you believe serves as your example, and how you would force that government on the rest of the world? So you believe utopia is achievable and Barbarians can be tamed, and you think I'm the crazy one? You've obviously been smoking to much of your facts.
litesong

Everett, WA

#35910 Sep 2, 2014
obsessed septic wrote:
your solution.....get rid of capitalism....one world government?
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.

“Don't worry about me, I"m fine”

Since: Aug 13

middle of nowhere

#35911 Sep 3, 2014
I invite all the global warming supporters to come and camp next to Mil Lacs lake for the winter, in light of the farmer's almanac forecast for the winter, why if global warming is so true then a tent should do it for them!!!!
Obskeptic

Livonia, MI

#35912 Sep 3, 2014
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.
Very revealing answer there name caller. Real deep and intellectual.
dont drink the koolaid

Minneapolis, MN

#35913 Sep 3, 2014
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.
Who do you think has the resources and the ability to wield such awesome power as climate control?
How about The United States Military Industrial Complex (USMIC)?
And if not the USMIC what do you think the a Pentagon is going to do about not controlling the most powerful weapon (climate control) ever imagined?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#35914 Sep 3, 2014
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
So your solution is what, get rid of capitalism maybe? Empower a one world government? Put government in control of how the population of the world is permitted to live? Amongst the hundreds of governments of the world, how about pointing out to me the good one you believe serves as your example, and how you would force that government on the rest of the world? So you believe utopia is achievable and Barbarians can be tamed, and you think I'm the crazy one? You've obviously been smoking to much of your facts.
Ecological suicide is a by-product of capitalism.

Corporations cannot be induced to subordinate profit to "save the earth." And upper management faces relentless pressure from investor-shareholders to maximize profits.

It's a complex problem. To generate profit, business must cut labor costs and utilize natural resources regardless of damage caused. Hence, corporations have shipped jobs overseas and are efficiently liquidating every natural resource on the planet to maximize profit; they have no option, it's what shareholders demand.

The minute anyone suggests companies like Dow Chemical reduce their carbon footprint, they’re talking about violating capitalists’“freedom” to produce and sell whatever they like, and consumer “free choice” to buy whatever they want. Even liberal environmentally-minded college professors do not want to screw with the market -- that could lead to devastation of their financial portfolio.

To solve the problem of Co2 emissions and other environmental damage, we must eliminate the freedom of capitalists to produce and sell as they please. You are appalled, yes? Isn't such a philosophy incompatible with capitalist property and capitalist organization of production? Wouldn't it require a restructuring of our economy?

If capitalist growth can’t be stopped, and if the logic of capitalism for profit is destroying the planet, should we ignore the consequences or rethink an ideology that no longer works?

It's time to go back to the drawing board and abandon the antiquated idea of steady-state capitalism. Socialism? Communism? Call it whatever you like. We need a practical, economically sound ecological economy, one geared to need, not profit.

You have a choice -- save the present capitalistic model motivated by greed and profit regardless of harm caused or save yourself, the planet.

You can't save both.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#35915 Sep 3, 2014
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
So your solution is what, get rid of capitalism maybe?
That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said. I promoted Democracy (a political system) and you responded with an attack on an economic system (Capitalism).
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
Empower a one world government?
That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said.
Nothing was said about a global government.
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
Put government in control of how the population of the world is permitted to live?
That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said. Though yes, government is the will of the people to limit the freedom of the individual. No matter how you might want to kill your neighbor or competitor, the rule of Democracy says you are limited to bad words.

Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
Amongst the hundreds of governments of the world, how about pointing out to me the good one you believe serves as your example.
At no point did I suggest that there was a real 'Democracy' out there to serve as an example. Fact is that if we CAN make a proper Democracy with government an 'employee' of the public good, it will be the first. But what I said about WHY we need a Democracy (instead of the current oligarchies, plutocracies and fascism's) is still obviously true.

Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
How you would force that government on the rest of the world?

That is what is called a 'non-sequitur'. I.e a statement that is totally disconnected from what I said.If a Democracy can be created it will be because the current regime cannot stand against the united will of it's citizens. And it will be only if a wise enough leader can prevent the carving of the new regime into power blocks as happened in revolutions such as Egypt populist uprising. A key fact is that 'electing your dictator' does not work. A Democracy must be dynamic and powered BY an involved and empowered public. People who day that it cannot work and beside, they are busy doing important things like griping and heckling without though (if the shoe fits, you can wear it..) cannot form a Democracy, true. YOU will never be the spark that drives it. But it is not impossible or even improbably that one will eventually form. Similar governments (though generally without universal suffrage) are speckled throughout history.

[QUOTE who="Obskeptic"]< quoted text>
So you believe utopia is achievable and Barbarians can be tamed, and you think I'm the crazy one?
What makes you think that even a true Democracy will be 'Utopia'????? You will STILL have competing objectives and self-centered 'organizers' and influences. But it wold be MORE capable of dealing with issues such as AGW than the current back room dealings.
Obskeptic wrote:
<quoted text>
You think I'm the crazy one? You've obviously been smoking to much of your facts.
NO. I think that you are the one who has not bothered to think or to parse the semantics of what is a clear and cogent post. Your failure even to comprehend what WAS said and the introduction of issues that were NOT discussed shows that you would help most by dropping out of the thread.
dont drink the koolaid

Minneapolis, MN

#35916 Sep 3, 2014
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>

NO. I think that you are the one who has not bothered to think or to parse the semantics of what is a clear and cogent post. Your failure even to comprehend what WAS said and the introduction of issues that were NOT discussed shows that you would help most by dropping out of the thread.
Well stated.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#35917 Sep 3, 2014
Wanderer2452 wrote:
<quoted text>
Ecological suicide is a by-product of capitalism.
It would be more accurate to say that Capitalism tends to

1: Be exploitive. No resource can be valued for it's long term use, only the short term profit (often from destroying it). This also drives it's strenght when a lot of rich resources (i.e the US before industrialization) are there for the exploiting.

2: Drive up 'externalized costs' such as pollution. By keeping them 'off the books' Capitalism (and those who control the laws through their riches) increase their income while pushing the costs onto the public. And because pollution is 'off the books' it is often badly managed and worse than it has to be.

but can corporations and their owners be brough to heel? Possibly. But only by a Democracy where the power is in the hands of the 'public good' as a counter to individual greed.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#35918 Sep 3, 2014
LessHypeMoreFact wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be more accurate to say that Capitalism tends to
1: Be exploitive. No resource can be valued for it's long term use, only the short term profit (often from destroying it). This also drives it's strenght when a lot of rich resources (i.e the US before industrialization) are there for the exploiting.
2: Drive up 'externalized costs' such as pollution. By keeping them 'off the books' Capitalism (and those who control the laws through their riches) increase their income while pushing the costs onto the public. And because pollution is 'off the books' it is often badly managed and worse than it has to be.
but can corporations and their owners be brough to heel? Possibly. But only by a Democracy where the power is in the hands of the 'public good' as a counter to individual greed.
You raise some good points.

The continued depletion rate of earth's natural resources is not sustainable. Societal collapse occurs when people ignore their impact on their environment. History is replete with examples, from Easter Island to the Anasazi, civilizations that refused to change, civilizations that thought the 'good life' would last forever.

The failure lies in "short-term thinking" policies implemented by leaders, how to satisfy people in the here and now. You want to be warm this winter, yes? You want food on your table, yes? All immediate needs, no "long-term thinking" necessary.

Your immediate needs are met by businesses that extract oil, natural gas, and coal from the earth. Their products are sold to consumers all over the world. So, all people have a hand in contributing to the Co2 problem. It's human nature to want what we want -- now.

This time around, if something isn't done in the near future, it's not some isolated society in the Pacific that will collapse, it's the world.

Can business be "brought to heel?" For that to occur an example must be set, people must first be willing to sacrifice for the common good, delay short-term needs. Only then can they demand corporations do the same.

Today I'll bring my cloth bags to the grocery store, eat vegetables instead of T-bone. And the deniers will ridicule me.

You?
litesong

Everett, WA

#35919 Sep 3, 2014
cant fake its lack of education wrote:
all about the money.......
Exxon has made as much as $40 billion in a year, not including billion dollar hedge fund schemes, & massive hundred million dollar bonus, stock & retirement packages to upper crust paper shufflers & people shovers, not available to those who build wealth, scientists, technologists, blue-collar workers, secretaries, & minimum wage workers.

“BET DAP”

Since: Feb 09

GOOM BOWN

#35920 Sep 3, 2014
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
That's your fears....... & nothing associated with AGW.
drink some more ethanol, creep killing bird killer.

“you know i know”

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35921 Sep 3, 2014
SpaceBlues wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, well, guess who continues to speak gibberish? YOU.
:-)
Also, believe this, I feel sorry for no-science deniers whose view of science talk is gibberish. It is a big hurdle in communication.
However, this might be even a bigger problem:
Apparently, the world’s two largest countries, each with populations about a billion more than ours — China and India — aren’t buying into the crisis. They are doing next to nothing to deal with it.
Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/08/30/60783...
exactly, numbnuts, so I'm supposed to get all hysterical about it like you? The USA has done plenty already, why don't all you hysterics stop using carbon fuels?

When I see Al Snore riding a bicycle cross country I'll sign on.

“you know i know”

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35922 Sep 3, 2014
Wanderer2452 wrote:
<quoted text>
Damn if I know what the hell you want.
The claim is, "Global warming is undeniable.'' I agree.
Deniers say it is a hoax. I disagree and request evidence that refutes the science, specifically the long-term effect of man-made CO2 gases in the atmosphere.
So far I've encountered rhetorical questions, ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, and needling. I return such compliments tit-for-tat. Fair, yes?
40-50 years ago, society and the government were concerned about the environment. Considerable efforts were made to conquer a number problems including ozone layer depletion, air pollution, and industrial/auto emissions.
Then Reagan happened and environmentalism was equated to Communism, Capitalism became king, and corporations convinced the U.S. Government not to participate in the Kyoto protocol -- it would hurt business.
So, here we are, faced with a problem that climate change deniers refuse to consider for various reasons. There's little time to waste.
Either the world starts to cut emissions NOW or we continue playing this dangerous shell game.
Your thoughts?
yes, yur ill informed and hysterical, take 2 Midols and calm down. We'll be fine, if demorats don't destroy the country entirely.

Illegal alien hordes don't give a crap about globull warming.
Yur thoughts?

“you know i know”

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35923 Sep 3, 2014
Wanderer2452 wrote:
<quoted text>
Dinosaurs are extinct?
I didn't know that. Thanks.
http://www.artisticglobe.com/wp-content/uploa...
You might want to read "The Origin of Species" before making more absurd statements.
The feeble objections made by you and other posters, the outlandish unsupported claims, the outright twisting of facts, the inane arguments, demonstrate an ignorance of the science behind climate change.
You're not concerned with the possible long term effect of rapidly raising Co2 levels. And you're probably right, you don't have to worry, it won't affect you. The cumulative effect of modern man's contribution to Co2 levels will probably take centuries. And you won't be alive.
So, let your confirmation bias drown out reality.
And the fact that birds are dinosaurs.
preposterous pap, T rex was a dinosaur

“you know i know”

Since: Oct 07

denver

#35924 Sep 3, 2014
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
Exxon has made as much as $40 billion in a year, not including billion dollar hedge fund schemes, & massive hundred million dollar bonus, stock & retirement packages to upper crust paper shufflers & people shovers, not available to those who build wealth, scientists, technologists, blue-collar workers, secretaries, & minimum wage workers.
'good for them, how much has Al Snore made with his lies? Exxon produces something, warmers produce nothing but hot air.
LIbEralS

Minneapolis, MN

#35925 Sep 4, 2014
The tolerant left:

Sir Paul Nurse, a Nobel Prize winner and the incoming president of the British Science Association and current president of the Royal Society -“serial offenders” casting man-made climate change in a skeptical light “should be crushed and buried.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/articl...

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