Global warming 'undeniable,' scientis...

Global warming 'undeniable,' scientists say

There are 36613 comments on the TwinCities.com story from Jul 29, 2010, titled Global warming 'undeniable,' scientists say. In it, TwinCities.com reports that:

Scientists from around the world are providing even more evidence of global warming, one day after President Barack Obama renewed his call for climate legislation.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at TwinCities.com.

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#24609 Mar 23, 2013
Kyle wrote:
<quoted text>
WTF are you talking about?! What experiments? I ask you again, moron - What experiments would you support? If you fail to answer either question, your "argument" will be revealed as fundamentally illogical or fundamentally dishonest.
Brian_G wrote:
And we've never tested the greenhouse effect of CO2, if we nuke an underground coal mine that's been enriched with oxygen, can we produce enough CO2 to make a measurable change in temperature? Might be worth a try.
Both.

He's posting fundamentally illogical arguments.

And Brian he's fundamentally dishonest: he not here for a rational debate, just to piss annoy people with illogical arguments.

A troll.

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#24610 Mar 23, 2013
Correction: And he's fundamentally dishonest..

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#24611 Mar 23, 2013
Fair Game wrote:
Both. He's posting fundamentally illogical arguments.
I've proposed ill thought through experiments and admitted I'm no scientist. I don't design experimental tests for my living, don't depend on me as a source of original science. Be skeptical of experts who haven't demonstrated, tested or experimentally verified their policy proposals; that's all I say.

.
Fair Game wrote:
And Brian he's fundamentally dishonest: he not here for a rational debate, just to piss annoy people with illogical arguments.
I don't argue my political opponents by name, I argue their policy. Conservation, government funding alternate energy, taxing energy use and production are proven disasters. I don't call my political opponents dishonest, they fear climate and don't understand the experimental record; that's all.

.
Fair Game wrote:
A troll.
Ad hominem arguments are fallacious; I prefer logic and experimental evidence. This is where we differ.
Iowan

West Des Moines, IA

#24612 Mar 23, 2013
retuglicans hate the planet

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#24613 Mar 23, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>I've proposed ill thought through experiments

...

I prefer logic and experimental evidence.
About as much use as a tone deaf music critic or a restaurant critic without taste buds then.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#24614 Mar 23, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>I've proposed ill thought through experiments and admitted I'm no scientist. I don't design experimental tests for my living, don't depend on me as a source of original science. Be skeptical of experts who haven't demonstrated, tested or experimentally verified their policy proposals; that's all I say.
.
<quoted text>I don't argue my political opponents by name, I argue their policy. Conservation, government funding alternate energy, taxing energy use and production are proven disasters. I don't call my political opponents dishonest, they fear climate and don't understand the experimental record; that's all...
So you're "not a scientist" & you can't "design experimental tests" to see whether AGW/CC mitigation is a "hoax" (your words). That's profoundly anti-scientific & illogical. You admit NO possibility of proving the null hypothesis.

It's a bit like you saying "prove to me that Beethoven was a great composer" but then saying you refuse to listen to any of his music. It's the ultimate in closed-mindedness.

In point of fact, EVERYTHING you say about policy is exactly backward. The "proven disaster" would be NOT instituting a very stiff carbon tax, or NOT funding clean energy, or CONTINUING to fight oil wars in the Middle East. The LACK of government policies strongly encouraging conservation is an absolutely proven, profound disaster.

It's OK to be spectacularly wrong, & you sure are.

But just tell us how much they pay you. Be honest JUST THIS ONCE. It'd enhance your credibility.
litesong

Everett, WA

#24615 Mar 23, 2013
Kyle wrote:
....... thought-free evidence of the thought-free nature.......
Like dirtling,'earthling has no brain','fetid feces face flip flopper fiend' also has no brain for its thought-free evidence of its thought-free nature.
Who

Grand Rapids, MI

#24616 Mar 23, 2013
Bushwhacker wrote:
So, you have no proof, we do and you're pretending we don't ??? Pretty funny !!!
So where is this "proof". Bluffington Post? Some other liberal rag? Al Mediawhore? So called "scientists" that rely on government grant money and will say anything that guarantess more grant money? Idiots like litebong and any of the other idiots that believe EVERY single thing that liberal science says without question?

Yeah, those are all way more reliable sources?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#24617 Mar 24, 2013
Who wrote:
<quoted text>
So where is this "proof". Bluffington Post? Some other liberal rag? Al Mediawhore? So called "scientists" that rely on government grant money and will say anything that guarantess more grant money? Idiots like litebong and any of the other idiots that believe EVERY single thing that liberal science says without question?
Yeah, those are all way more reliable sources?
The proof is in scientific journals, where deliberate deception is virtually impossible. You should try to read them. They have very, VERY powerful evidence.

If scientists deliberately distort data to get grants, why didn't they do it for the cell phone brain cancer scare? Or the high tension power lines cancer scare?

Preliminary studies raised the question of whether EMR (electromagnetic radiation) caused cancer, but larger, well-designed studies failed to show significant correlations. By your arrantly absurd "logic," the scientists should have distorted their data to show EMR DID cause cancer, assuring a supply of grant money.

THEY DIDN'T. Scientists only publish their best understanding the of the truth as nature reveals itself.

You see, science must be repeatable. If one scientist publishes something, another scientist in another part of the world will try to verify & elaborate upon those findings. This happens VERY quickly in an active field like climate science.

If the 2nd scientist can't verify the 1st scientist's work, the 1st scientist "has some 'splainin' to do." Sometimes errors are just embarrassing (remember cold fusion?). Sometimes there are problems with methodologies, & they may mutually work them out.

Deliberate deception, however, is ALWAYS discovered, & if it happens, that scientist's academic career is typically over. Adiós muchacho.

That's why compared to other people, scientists NEVER lie in their scientific papers. They CAN'T.

If you don't know this, you don't understand the way science works.

There are many things that are still unclear: the exact timing, severity & location of the consequences of AGW/CC. But the basics of the theory are proven beyond ANY doubt at this point. We just don't know exactly how bad it'll get, or exactly when & where it'll happen.

Every important scientific organization realizes the theory is correct. It's support by all the mainstream science magazines: Scientific American, Discovery, etc.

Here's NASA on the evidence:
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

The only deniers left are mostly either ignorant, ideological, psychotic or paid off by oil money.

Scientific facts are true no matter how many times you rail against them.

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#24618 Mar 24, 2013
Fair Game wrote:
About as much use as a tone deaf music critic or a restaurant critic without taste buds then.
You don't have to be an expert chef to know which foods taste good and be a critic. You don't have to design experiments to recognize which technologies (climate change mitigation for one) have no experimental evidence.
PHD

Cibolo, TX

#24619 Mar 24, 2013
No, scientists discover new data to correct their errors to discover that their corrections are in error. If NASA was so great why did they make the USA space hitchhikers?

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#24620 Mar 24, 2013
HomoSapiensLaptopicus wrote:
So you're "not a scientist" & you can't "design experimental tests" to see whether AGW/CC mitigation is a "hoax" (your words). That's profoundly anti-scientific & illogical.
I'm being honest, you don't have to be a scientist to search for an experimental record of climate change mitigation. Don't blame me for the fact their are no experiments, demonstrations, trials or test that show we can mitigate or change global climate.

.
HomoSapiensLaptopicus wrote:
You admit NO possibility of proving the null hypothesis.
Show me a compelling experiment for man made climate change or climate change mitigation and I'll change my views. I have an objective standard. Let me ask you: What would it take for you to change your views of climate change mitigation? If you can't answer, I'd suggest that's because your beliefs aren't based on science.

.
HomoSapiensLaptopicus wrote:
It's a bit like you saying "prove to me that Beethoven was a great composer" but then saying you refuse to listen to any of his music. It's the ultimate in closed-mindedness.
The existence of nonexistence of an experimental test of climate change mitigation isn't a matter of opinions, it's a matter of fact. You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.

.
HomoSapiensLaptopicus wrote:
In point of fact, EVERYTHING you say about policy is exactly backward. The "proven disaster" would be NOT instituting a very stiff carbon tax, or NOT funding clean energy, or CONTINUING to fight oil wars in the Middle East. The LACK of government policies strongly encouraging conservation is an absolutely proven, profound disaster.
A very stiff carbon tax would harm our economy, just as its been shown to harm the economies where it's been tried. There's no evidence it will help the climate. Adding a tax to oil won't stop oil use, it will just make oil more expensive and give more profit to OPEC. That's why Al Jazeera supports your climate tax, it adds costs and increases the perception of value and rarity to oil prices.

We fight wars in the Middle East because the Taliban government of Afghanistan sheltered Al Qaeda, Saddam Hussein in Iraq was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction and Iraq invaded Kuwait back in 1990. After we'd won, we didn't take their oil.

.
HomoSapiensLaptopicus wrote:
It's OK to be spectacularly wrong, & you sure are. But just tell us how much they pay you. Be honest JUST THIS ONCE. It'd enhance your credibility.
Who is 'they' and why should they pay me for posting here? Do they pay you for posting opposite views?

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#24621 Mar 24, 2013
HomoSapiensLaptopicus wrote:
The proof is in scientific journals, where deliberate deception is virtually impossible...
Science hoaxes:

No. 1- Piltdown Man
The whole thing started in 1912 when Charles Dawson claimed to find some interesting bones in a gravel pit.

A palaeontologist at the British Museum assembled the bones and believed that they represented the "missing link" between humans and apes.

40 years later scientists proved that the Piltdown man was a deliberate attempt at paleontological fraud.

No. 2- Archaeoraptor
In 1999 National Geographic described this creature as the "missing link" between dinosaurs and birds.

Yeah, not so much.

Turns out this "fossil" found in China was actually a forgery constructed from rearranged pieces of real fossils from different species.

No. 3 - El Chupacabra
This savage chicken-eater was actually a hairless wolf.

No. 4 - Rabbit Mother
In 18th-century England, Mary Toft convinced doctors she had given birth to 16 rabbits.

A Short Narrative of an Extraordinary Delivery of Rabbets was written by King George's surgeon about her case. People stopped serving rabbit stew.

Once the hoax was discovered, the medical community suffered great embarrassment…to put it mildly.

No. 5 - The Fiji Mermaid
This artifact in P.T. Barnum's museum was advertised as a gorgeous topless siren, but was actually the mummified corpse of an ape sewn to a fish.

No. 6 - The Turk
It was nearly impossible to beat this chess-playing automaton of 1770. Heralded as the next great venture into technology; it was even toured across Europe. Unfortunately, the Turk was discovered to be a chess whiz in a robot suit.

No. 7 - Alien Autopsy
In the 1990's English cameraman Ray Santilli claimed to own footage of an alien autopsy performed after the 1947 Roswell Incident.

Fox aired a portion of it, but in 2006, Santilli 'fessed up to the hoax.

All the alien innards in the film were actually sheep brains, raspberry jam and chicken entrails.

No. 8 - Say No to Cake
In 1995, British fake news show Brass Eye conducted an "investigative report" on a street drug they invented called "cake," claiming it affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon."

Members of the media lashed out against cake, and the British government even took the matter to Parliament. Whoops!

No. 9 - Disappearing Blonde Gene
Every generation or so, an alarm is sounded over the belief that natural blonds will soon go the way of the dodo.

The most hoax happened in 2002 when news organizations from the BBC to CNN quoted what they believed to be a World Health Organization report that blonds would disappear within 200 years, because blondness was caused by a recessive gene that was dying out.

Turns out the WHO had never done such a study.

No. 10 - The Nacirema Tribe
The Nacirema were supposedly a tribe of people living in North America, as described by Horace Miner in his anthropological paper, published in 1956.

The tribe Miner described had many odd rituals including "scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument" and another ritual that "consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures."

It was actually a satire of everyday American life. "Nacirema" is "American" spelled backward.

http://science.discovery.com/strange-science/...
PHD

Cibolo, TX

#24622 Mar 24, 2013
You’re spinning your wheels. They couldn't show you anything when they are in their best method of thinking. They only use the cut and paste method scientific science fiction.Have you noticed when you pin them against the wall they judge you badly or call you names? Yes I do respond in kind.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#24623 Mar 24, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>Science hoaxes:
No. 1- Piltdown Man
The whole thing started in 1912 when Charles Dawson claimed to find some interesting bones in a gravel pit.
A palaeontologist at the British Museum assembled the bones and believed that they represented the "missing link" between humans and apes.
40 years later scientists proved that the Piltdown man was a deliberate attempt at paleontological fraud.
No. 2- Archaeoraptor
In 1999 National Geographic described this creature as the "missing link" between dinosaurs and birds.
Yeah, not so much.
Turns out this "fossil" found in China was actually a forgery constructed from rearranged pieces of real fossils from different species.
No. 3 - El Chupacabra
This savage chicken-eater was actually a hairless wolf.
No. 4 - Rabbit Mother
In 18th-century England, Mary Toft convinced doctors she had given birth to 16 rabbits.
A Short Narrative of an Extraordinary Delivery of Rabbets was written by King George's surgeon about her case. People stopped serving rabbit stew.
Once the hoax was discovered, the medical community suffered great embarrassment…to put it mildly.
No. 5 - The Fiji Mermaid
This artifact in P.T. Barnum's museum was advertised as a gorgeous topless siren, but was actually the mummified corpse of an ape sewn to a fish.
No. 6 - The Turk
It was nearly impossible to beat this chess-playing automaton of 1770. Heralded as the next great venture into technology; it was even toured across Europe. Unfortunately, the Turk was discovered to be a chess whiz in a robot suit.
No. 7 - Alien Autopsy
In the 1990's English cameraman Ray Santilli claimed to own footage of an alien autopsy performed after the 1947 Roswell Incident.
Fox aired a portion of it, but in 2006, Santilli 'fessed up to the hoax.
All the alien innards in the film were actually sheep brains, raspberry jam and chicken entrails.
No. 8 - Say No to Cake
In 1995, British fake news show Brass Eye conducted an "investigative report" on a street drug they invented called "cake," claiming it affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon."
Members of the media lashed out against cake, and the British government even took the matter to Parliament. Whoops!
No. 9 - Disappearing Blonde Gene
Every generation or so, an alarm is sounded over the belief that natural blonds will soon go the way of the dodo.
The most hoax happened in 2002 when news organizations from the BBC to CNN quoted what they believed to be a World Health Organization report that blonds would disappear within 200 years, because blondness was caused by a recessive gene that was dying out.
Turns out the WHO had never done such a study.
No. 10 - The Nacirema Tribe
The Nacirema were supposedly a tribe of people living in North America, as described by Horace Miner in his anthropological paper, published in 1956.
The tribe Miner described had many odd rituals including "scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument" and another ritual that "consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures."
It was actually a satire of everyday American life. "Nacirema" is "American" spelled backward.
http://science.discovery.com/strange-science/...
Those are cases of fraud, usually perpetrated by a single individual. Climate science is supported by the science community at large. Why do some folks disregard the science in favor of political agenda?

The fact is that burning fossil fuel releases CO2 into the atmosphere that has a proven effect of warming the atmosphere.
d pantz

United States

#24624 Mar 24, 2013
I wonder if these "scientists" also agree that un agenda 21 is the solution to the "problem" created by corporate industry. Punish the poor for the fault of the super rich! http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-poli...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#24625 Mar 24, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>Science hoaxes:
No. 1- Piltdown Man
The whole thing started in 1912 when Charles Dawson claimed to find some interesting bones in a gravel pit.
A palaeontologist at the British Museum assembled the bones and believed that they represented the "missing link" between humans and apes.
40 years later scientists proved that the Piltdown man was a deliberate attempt at paleontological fraud.
No. 2- Archaeoraptor
In 1999 National Geographic described this creature as the "missing link" between dinosaurs and birds.
Yeah, not so much.
Turns out this "fossil" found in China was actually a forgery constructed from rearranged pieces of real fossils from different species.
No. 3 - El Chupacabra
This savage chicken-eater was actually a hairless wolf.
No. 4 - Rabbit Mother
In 18th-century England, Mary Toft convinced doctors she had given birth to 16 rabbits.
A Short Narrative of an Extraordinary Delivery of Rabbets was written by King George's surgeon about her case. People stopped serving rabbit stew.
Once the hoax was discovered, the medical community suffered great embarrassment…to put it mildly.
No. 5 - The Fiji Mermaid
This artifact in P.T. Barnum's museum was advertised as a gorgeous topless siren, but was actually the mummified corpse of an ape sewn to a fish.
No. 6 - The Turk
It was nearly impossible to beat this chess-playing automaton of 1770. Heralded as the next great venture into technology; it was even toured across Europe. Unfortunately, the Turk was discovered to be a chess whiz in a robot suit.
No. 7 - Alien Autopsy
In the 1990's English cameraman Ray Santilli claimed to own footage of an alien autopsy performed after the 1947 Roswell Incident.
Fox aired a portion of it, but in 2006, Santilli 'fessed up to the hoax.
All the alien innards in the film were actually sheep brains, raspberry jam and chicken entrails.
No. 8 - Say No to Cake
In 1995, British fake news show Brass Eye conducted an "investigative report" on a street drug they invented called "cake," claiming it affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon."
Members of the media lashed out against cake, and the British government even took the matter to Parliament. Whoops!
No. 9 - Disappearing Blonde Gene
Every generation or so, an alarm is sounded over the belief that natural blonds will soon go the way of the dodo.
The most hoax happened in 2002 when news organizations from the BBC to CNN quoted what they believed to be a World Health Organization report that blonds would disappear within 200 years, because blondness was caused by a recessive gene that was dying out.
Turns out the WHO had never done such a study.
No. 10 - The Nacirema Tribe
The Nacirema were supposedly a tribe of people living in North America, as described by Horace Miner in his anthropological paper, published in 1956.
The tribe Miner described had many odd rituals including "scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument" and another ritual that "consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures."
It was actually a satire of everyday American life. "Nacirema" is "American" spelled backward.
http://science.discovery.com/strange-science/...
THANK YOU for proving my point. In science, the truth ALWAYS comes out. In an active field like climatology, it comes out very quickly. That's why climatologists don't lie in scientific journals.

Lots of the things you cite were obvious jokes, intended that way at the time. AGW/CC is no joke, as you will find out if you live long enough.

Your progeny, should you have any, will despise you. I hope it's worth it for a few shekels.
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#24626 Mar 24, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>Science hoaxes:
No. 1- Piltdown Man
The whole thing started in 1912 when Charles Dawson claimed to find some interesting bones in a gravel pit.
A palaeontologist at the British Museum assembled the bones and believed that they represented the "missing link" between humans and apes.
40 years later scientists proved that the Piltdown man was a deliberate attempt at paleontological fraud.
No. 2- Archaeoraptor
In 1999 National Geographic described this creature as the "missing link" between dinosaurs and birds.
Yeah, not so much.
Turns out this "fossil" found in China was actually a forgery constructed from rearranged pieces of real fossils from different species.
No. 3 - El Chupacabra
This savage chicken-eater was actually a hairless wolf.
No. 4 - Rabbit Mother
In 18th-century England, Mary Toft convinced doctors she had given birth to 16 rabbits.
A Short Narrative of an Extraordinary Delivery of Rabbets was written by King George's surgeon about her case. People stopped serving rabbit stew.
Once the hoax was discovered, the medical community suffered great embarrassment…to put it mildly.
No. 5 - The Fiji Mermaid
This artifact in P.T. Barnum's museum was advertised as a gorgeous topless siren, but was actually the mummified corpse of an ape sewn to a fish.
No. 6 - The Turk
It was nearly impossible to beat this chess-playing automaton of 1770. Heralded as the next great venture into technology; it was even toured across Europe. Unfortunately, the Turk was discovered to be a chess whiz in a robot suit.
No. 7 - Alien Autopsy
In the 1990's English cameraman Ray Santilli claimed to own footage of an alien autopsy performed after the 1947 Roswell Incident.
Fox aired a portion of it, but in 2006, Santilli 'fessed up to the hoax.
All the alien innards in the film were actually sheep brains, raspberry jam and chicken entrails.
No. 8 - Say No to Cake
In 1995, British fake news show Brass Eye conducted an "investigative report" on a street drug they invented called "cake," claiming it affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon."
Members of the media lashed out against cake, and the British government even took the matter to Parliament. Whoops!
No. 9 - Disappearing Blonde Gene
Every generation or so, an alarm is sounded over the belief that natural blonds will soon go the way of the dodo.
The most hoax happened in 2002 when news organizations from the BBC to CNN quoted what they believed to be a World Health Organization report that blonds would disappear within 200 years, because blondness was caused by a recessive gene that was dying out.
Turns out the WHO had never done such a study.
No. 10 - The Nacirema Tribe
The Nacirema were supposedly a tribe of people living in North America, as described by Horace Miner in his anthropological paper, published in 1956.
The tribe Miner described had many odd rituals including "scraping and lacerating the surface of the face with a sharp instrument" and another ritual that "consists of inserting a small bundle of hog hairs into the mouth, along with certain magical powders, and then moving the bundle in a highly formalized series of gestures."
It was actually a satire of everyday American life. "Nacirema" is "American" spelled backward.
http://science.discovery.com/strange-science/...
When you post individual exceptions to prove the community is wrong, it's pretty weak & stupid. Hey, a granny stuck up a convenience store...QED... Grannys are maser criminals ??? Sorry LOSER, this was weak....
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#24627 Mar 24, 2013
When you post individual exceptions to prove the community is wrong, it's pretty weak & stupid. Hey, a granny stuck up a convenience store...QED... Grannies are maser criminals ??? Sorry LOSER, this was weak....

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#24628 Mar 24, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>.
<quoted text><quoted text>...A very stiff carbon tax would harm our economy, just as its been shown to harm the economies where it's been tried...

<quoted text>Who is 'they' and why should they pay me for posting here? Do they pay you for posting opposite views?
A very stiff carbon tax is the ONLY way to save civilization & billions of lives. It most assuredly has NOT harmed the economies of the many countries where it's been instituted.

The consequences of AGW/CC, however, have already harmed economies, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars for the US, & ~1.6% of the worldwide GDP. Yet you want us to pay more & more of these things because you want to save a few pennies at the pump. You are penny wise & dollar foolish.

"They" are people who represent the oil (& other fossil fuel) companies & related entities. If you're not being paid by them, then you're either ideological, ignorant or psychotic.

No, I'm not being paid to post here. I post because I'm concerned about the future of the only planet we have.

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