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Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#1
Nov 21, 2013
 

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You see all these new holding pond along freeways. You know they are constructed right where cars end up when they slip off the ramp.

Well this morning a car with 4 kids and one adult ended up in one of the 10' deep water death traps designed and built by none other than MnDOT!!

And we the taxpayers have to pay for this Government Monopoly that traps us and kills us.

At least they could constuct barriers so vehicles wouldn't end up in 10' of ice cold water in the dark.

I pray the 5 people made it out alive from the event. Of course IF they were strapped in to the Government mandated car seats do you think the one adult was able to get 4 kids out and out of the water?

Stay tuned for the outcome.
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#3
Nov 21, 2013
 

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Update, they are now saying there were 5 kids and none were responsive when pulled from the car when a towtruck pulled the car from the icey water.

The driver is in the hospital recovering, guess she made it out without any kids.

The 5 kids were under water for 15-30 mins and not responsive when recovered.

RIP!

It doesn't sound good.

BTW MnDOT has installed cable barriers along many highways to prevent this kind of tragedy, why NOT HERE?

MnDOT?
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#5
Nov 21, 2013
 

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If this isn't the most ignorant statement ever:

"Bobbie Dahlke, with MnDOT, said there are no guardrails at that interchange because if a motorist were traveling at the posted speed there is “enough room to recover before hitting an object or before going into the pond.”"

A casual observer can look at the ramp using streetview Google and see that the ramp is used as an acceleration lane to enter NB 100. Reasonable to assume vehicles would be traveling at over 45 MPH when driving on that ramp. It's obvious the ramp is no more than 40 feet from the 9 foot deep holding pond. Note the slope leading to the water is very steep so in reality a motorist has about a car length to stop "before hitting an object OR going into the pond". 20 feet to stop at 45+ MPH with the surface being wet and dirt/grass.

Bobbie of MnDOT is silly to make the statement made.

Of course large numbers of vehicles use this ramp withot ending up in the pond but MnDOT should design highways with reasonable safeguards to prevent a out of control vehicle from ending up in a 9 foot deep pond.

In fact if you take a look at the ramps and ponds in the area of I694 and I35E there ar long distances between the roadway and the water HOWEVER MnDOT installed cable barriers to prevent vehicles from sliding into the ponds.

As one of wisdom often says: if it don't make sense then someone is NOT telling the truth. In this case MnDOT is clearly lieing!
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#6
Nov 21, 2013
 

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Cable barriers AND guard rails can be viewed at I35E and I694 using google streetview protecting motorists from slideing into another holding pond.

Note: the EB I694 ramp to continue on I694 actually has a guard rail AND cable barriers.

I'd expect MnDOT to use an emergency grant to boogy out to that ramp at 7/100 and install cable OR guard rails ASAP.

And PLEASE NO MORE ignorant statements from MnDOT!
DLN

Excelsior, MN

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#8
Nov 21, 2013
 

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They've already ruled out road conditions and alcohol. So how does someone miss a 20 mph curve that badly?

Let's see... Five young children in the car, 5:30 am, driving well away from home... Distracted driver or asleep at the wheel are likely causes. Hardly MnDOT's fault!
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#9
Nov 21, 2013
 

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DLN wrote:
They've already ruled out road conditions and alcohol. So how does someone miss a 20 mph curve that badly?
Let's see... Five young children in the car, 5:30 am, driving well away from home... Distracted driver or asleep at the wheel are likely causes. Hardly MnDOT's fault!
Except MnDOT has installed cable and guard rails around other holding ponds along highways, noted above.

MnDOT clearly knows the danger in these very deep holding ponds and has set precedent by installing barriers around many other ponds.

Why none on this pond?

It's much like the cable median barriers that are installed after fatalities. Notice the drop in headon wrecks since the installation of median barriers on metro highways.

MnDOT is wasteing money on sweeping unused bike paths in winter instead of installing protective barriers along roads used by hundreds of vehicles a day.

Broken Government, in this case MnDOT.
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#10
Nov 21, 2013
 

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DLN wrote:
They've already ruled out road conditions and alcohol. So how does someone miss a 20 mph curve that badly?
Let's see... Five young children in the car, 5:30 am, driving well away from home... Distracted driver or asleep at the wheel are likely causes. Hardly MnDOT's fault!
Well, take a drive through the area.

Notice the speed limit for West Bound 7 is 45 MPH.

There is NO 20 MPH sign for the ramp to North Bound 100.

If the ramp this car went off is a 20 MPH ramp then it should be signed to say that and NOT have an implied 45 limit.

If the car traveled 40 yards off pavement on wet slippery grass down a steep slope to the pond it's understandable how this wreck happened. Understanding average speeds people travel at are 10 MPH over the posted limit. She was probably going 55 and for some reason ended up on the wet slippery grass flying down the steep slope to the 9 foot deep pond.

So signage played a part as well as lack of a guard rail or cable barriers.

MnDOT should first erect a 20 MPH speed limit for the ramp and a warning of the curve. That would be done in a day and then ASAP erect guard rails and/or cable barriers t keep vehicles out of the killer pond.
MNDOT Engineer

Minneapolis, MN

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#11
Nov 22, 2013
 

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So far, this accident appears to be operator error by an unlicensed driver.
MNDOT Engineer

Minneapolis, MN

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#12
Nov 22, 2013
 

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So far, this terrible tragedy appears to have been caused by operator error by an unlicensed driver.
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#13
Nov 22, 2013
 

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So you blame a fatal wreck on driver error and ignore how MnDOT installs guard rail and cable barriers selectively. Barriers are only installed in areas where good/legal drivers will go off a road, right?
MNDOT Engineer

Saint Paul, MN

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#17
Nov 22, 2013
 

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I just drove on Highway 100 and 694. Most of the ramps with holding ponds do not have guard rails.
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#19
Nov 22, 2013
 

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MNDOT Engineer wrote:
I just drove on Highway 100 and 694. Most of the ramps with holding ponds do not have guard rails.
Fair is fair, I drove on I35E in the area of I694 and noticed ALL the holding ponds have either guard rails OR cable barriers. In some cases there are both cable AND guard rails.
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#20
Nov 22, 2013
 

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Busybody wrote:
This story is starting to get strange, I'd give my informed theory, but it would be deleted. But, if you want to get info, don't depend on the media, ask the neighbors and acquaintances.
Also, why, with 2 kids dead and 3 more in critical condition, the first thing this woman did was get a lawyer and open a bank account, asking for $100,000.00?
There ARE "people" out there stageing rear end collisions. Once they are hit in the rear they file a claim and Minnesota's no-fault insurance automatically pays out like $20,000.

I guess it's not beyond the relm of possibilities for someone to stage ANY kind of accident in order to cash in. Hard to believe a mother would stage a wreck with her kids involved. If this driver really retained a lawyer already, before her kids are even out of the hospital IS very suspect.
digger

Minneapolis, MN

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#21
Nov 22, 2013
 

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I've heard all of this BULLSHIT over the past few days, suggesting that this accident was the DOT's fault, not the fault of the driver.

What a bunch of HORSEHOCKEY.

First of all, the driver didn't even have a VALID driver's license, all she had was a driver's "PERMIT".

In addition, she didn't have INSURANCE ON THE CAR, which is, REQUIRED BY LAW.

Two young kids DIED, the hospital bills for the REST will be picked up by TAXPAYERS, AND THE DRIVER DOESN'T HAVE A WORD TO SAY ABOUT IT.

Great, JUST GREAT.

I wonder how Amy Senser feels about a situation like THAT, while she sits in PRISON. When the Senser family made a multimillion DOLLAR settlement with the "victim's" family. When the Senser business got put OUT OF BUSINESS, along with throwing out of work dozens of workers...
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#22
Nov 22, 2013
 

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Dig, here's an example of MNDOT's liability associated with car wrecks.

In the Virginia Mn area a trooper pulled over a drunk and was evaluating the drunk driver and both he and the drunk were standing between 2 vehicles.

Well along comes another drunk and hits the rear car pushing it into the other car. The trooper sees it comming and is able to get out of the way.

However the drunk is caught between the 2 cars and suffers severe damage. Soo the drunk sues the state for damages and WINS..

The drunk won big allowing him to purchase a store and live happily for ever after.

I am very suprised how the ramp associated with this wreck is unprotected with guard rails and or cable barriers, unsigned warning of a lower speed is warrented and complete lack of signs warning drivers to stay away from the deep pond.

Locals are saying a car a year has fallen into this pond.

In fact if you view the area of this intersection using Google there are tire tracks in the grass leading in the direction of the killer pond.

If MnDOT does nothing in this area another crash is very likely.
digger

Minneapolis, MN

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#24
Nov 23, 2013
 

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Hey wrote:
Dig, here's an example of MNDOT's liability associated with car wrecks.
In the Virginia Mn area a trooper pulled over a drunk and was evaluating the drunk driver and both he and the drunk were standing between 2 vehicles.
Well along comes another drunk and hits the rear car pushing it into the other car. The trooper sees it comming and is able to get out of the way.
However the drunk is caught between the 2 cars and suffers severe damage. Soo the drunk sues the state for damages and WINS..
The drunk won big allowing him to purchase a store and live happily for ever after.
I am very suprised how the ramp associated with this wreck is unprotected with guard rails and or cable barriers, unsigned warning of a lower speed is warrented and complete lack of signs warning drivers to stay away from the deep pond.
Locals are saying a car a year has fallen into this pond.
In fact if you view the area of this intersection using Google there are tire tracks in the grass leading in the direction of the killer pond.
If MnDOT does nothing in this area another crash is very likely.
First of all, the Virginia, MN crash had NOTHING in common with this "accident". I have used this ramp many times over the years, and have NEVER, EVER, come close to leaving the ramp and going down the grassy slope into the holding pond, not even in the winter when the ramp might be coated with ice or snow. In fact,
I have NEVER landed my car in a holding pond, after driving for over 35 years.

This woman had NO BUSINESS driving a car with NO VALID DRIVERS LICENSE OR INSURANCE. She had NO BUSINESS driving a car with a pack of LITTLE KIDS in it, EITHER.

She used extremely POOR JUDGEMENT, and should be held accountable.
I don't CARE how "nice" she is, that is beside the point. MNDOT is NOT responsible for the irresponsible actions of a driver who is driving illegally and had 5 little kids in a car. The roads are not a "public race track" for people to use any way that they want. Drivers are expected to drive at a REASONABLE SPEED, drive a decently maintained car, and FOLLOW THE LAW.
digger

Minneapolis, MN

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#25
Nov 23, 2013
 

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Hey wrote:
<quoted text>
Except MnDOT has installed cable and guard rails around other holding ponds along highways, noted above.
MnDOT clearly knows the danger in these very deep holding ponds and has set precedent by installing barriers around many other ponds.
Why none on this pond?
It's much like the cable median barriers that are installed after fatalities. Notice the drop in headon wrecks since the installation of median barriers on metro highways.
MnDOT is wasteing money on sweeping unused bike paths in winter instead of installing protective barriers along roads used by hundreds of vehicles a day.
Broken Government, in this case MnDOT.
I seriously doubt that MNDOT sweeps unused bike paths. That is usually done by cities and/or counties. When using ramps, drivers are expected to use CAUTION and GOOD JUDGEMENT so such tragedies do not happen. That is especially true when driving at night, when there are poor weather and road conditions, or when driving with 5 little kids in your car.
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#26
Nov 23, 2013
 

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digger wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all, the Virginia, MN crash had NOTHING in common with this "accident". I have used this ramp many times over the years, and have NEVER, EVER, come close to leaving the ramp and going down the grassy slope into the holding pond, not even in the winter when the ramp might be coated with ice or snow. In fact,
I have NEVER landed my car in a holding pond, after driving for over 35 years.
This woman had NO BUSINESS driving a car with NO VALID DRIVERS LICENSE OR INSURANCE. She had NO BUSINESS driving a car with a pack of LITTLE KIDS in it, EITHER.
She used extremely POOR JUDGEMENT, and should be held accountable.
I don't CARE how "nice" she is, that is beside the point. MNDOT is NOT responsible for the irresponsible actions of a driver who is driving illegally and had 5 little kids in a car. The roads are not a "public race track" for people to use any way that they want. Drivers are expected to drive at a REASONABLE SPEED, drive a decently maintained car, and FOLLOW THE LAW.
So why then does MnDOT install ANY barriers at all?

Every road has cars leave the driving surface for many reasons. MnDOT installs barriers all oever, why not here?
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#27
Nov 23, 2013
 

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digger wrote:
<quoted text>
I seriously doubt that MNDOT sweeps unused bike paths. That is usually done by cities and/or counties. When using ramps, drivers are expected to use CAUTION and GOOD JUDGEMENT so such tragedies do not happen. That is especially true when driving at night, when there are poor weather and road conditions, or when driving with 5 little kids in your car.
Drop an email address out here and I'll send you a photo of MnDOT sweeping snow off the Gateway trail in Washington County. You will note the high buck tractor doing the sweeping has a MnDOT logo on it.
Hey

Saint Paul, MN

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#28
Nov 23, 2013
 

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Note: the Government rescue workers had special water rescue suits. Unfortunatly the suits didn't allow the rescuers to dive under water. So the rescuers were forced to use their feet only to find and retrieve the drowning kids.

If the car had been in a 15 foot deep pond there would have been no rescue at all.

Does anyone think this makes sense?

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