non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#47 Apr 3, 2013
From the story posted earlier:

By 2009 Stockton had accumulated nearly $1 billion in debt on civic improvements, money owed to pay pension contributions, and the most generous health care benefit in the state—coverage for life for all retirees plus a dependent, no matter how long they had worked for the city.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100578156

The first of many bankruptcies caused by poor state and local government negotiators and public employee unions around the country. Have they no shame?
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#48 Apr 3, 2013
"Promised pension benefits are protected under both state and federal law."

Pretty sad, if the pensions aren't protected, taxpayers will be on the hook and pensioners will get less than what they've EARNED !!!

Pitting money making creditors against the elderly and you're with the investors/creditors ???

I like your stupidity... now we're guaranteeing/enforcing investments, but not contracts ???

Guess, you advocate theft, huh ?

BANCKRUPT ???
BLANCKRUPT ???
BANCKRUPMT ???
BANCKRUUMPT ???
BLANCKKRUPT ???

Gotta love teabagger/idiots.....

So pointless/clueless...

non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#49 Apr 3, 2013
Contracts depend on the political entity, in this case the city government, remaining solvent enough to guarantee them. Bankruptcy is going to restructure those benefits, just like it is going to restructure current employees benefits.
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#50 Apr 3, 2013
"Promised pension benefits are protected under both state and federal law."
Pretty sad, if the pensions aren't protected, taxpayers will be on the hook and pensioners will get less than what they've EARNED !!!
Pitting money making creditors against the elderly and you're with the investors/creditors ???
I like your stupidity... now we're guaranteeing/enforcing investments, but not contracts ???
Guess, you advocate theft, huh ?
BANCKRUPT ???
BLANCKRUPT ???
BANCKRUPMT ???
BANCKRUUMPT ???
BLANCKKRUPT ???
Gotta love teabagger/idiots.....
So pointless/clueless...
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#51 Apr 4, 2013
Bushwhacker wrote:
"Promised pension benefits are protected under both state and federal law."
Guess what, pension benefits are not guaranteed under federal law, only state law slewsie. For the bankruptcy to work, the pensions are going to have to be re-worked.

Pension Battle Looms Over Stockton, California Bankruptcy
Written by Brian Koenig

Following a burgeoning trend among cities across the country weighed down by hefty pensions and ever-increasing government spending, Stockton, California, has fallen into complete financial disarray, and a federal judge ruled Monday that the insolvent city is eligible for bankruptcy protection. Despite objections from creditors, who tried to block the bankruptcy filing because bankruptcy would mean that bondholders who financed city spending would get back from the city less than the principal that they are owed, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Christopher Klein affirmed that Stockton may proceed with a plan to reorganize its debt, adding that creditors have acted in bad faith and have failed to subsidize their portion of the costs for negotiations. Klein insisted that the city "will not be able to perform its obligations to its citizens relating to such fundamental matters as public safety, as well as other basic governmental services," without the power of bankruptcy.

The impact Klein’s verdict will have on creditors will be significant, some critics say, as companies have already doled out tens of millions of dollars to the city.“The creditors got a big black eye today,” asserted Karol Denniston, an attorney involved in the legislation that directed the city’s mandated mediation for bankruptcy protection.“Now the stage is set for the real dogfight.” The judge intimated in his decision that the city may also have to reduce its payments to the city employees' pension fund so that the city can afford to pay its bills.

But the issue of whether federal bankruptcy law overrides California’s mandate requiring pension fund debts to be honored could spell trouble for the entire state, not to mention the rest of the country, analysts contend. "The fear is that there is going to be a run on the bank," said bankruptcy lawyer Michael Sweet, who has been following the contentious trial. "'Everyone is going to be cutting CalPERS [California Public Employees' Retirement System]' payments if Stockton is permitted to do it. California's $225 billion Public Employees Retirement System already is underfunded by $87 billion, which means there are more payments due to retirees than there is money in the system."

Nearly two dozen other cities in the state, including San Jose and San Bernardino, are facing either bankruptcy or severe financial emergencies, as their bloated pension expenses draw heightened criticism. "This is just the beginning of a multi-dimensional — well, I can't say chess game because it's not a game," said attorney Karol Denniston, an expert on financial restructuring. "There's not one thing that will fix the pension system. The net message is you can't see a restructuring when the largest creditor isn't being restructured."

The question is, of course, who picks up the bill for the city’s fiscal disorder. Creditors, who poured tens of millions of dollars into bonds to help shoulder growing pension payment costs, have been left holding the bag. But the scenarios experts now draw are only a prelude to a nationwide calamity, as more and more states become weighed down by hefty pensions and reckless government spending.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics...
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#52 Apr 4, 2013
"Promised pension benefits are protected under both state and federal law."
Pretty sad, if the pensions aren't protected, taxpayers will be on the hook and pensioners will get less than what they've EARNED !!!
Pitting money making creditors against the elderly and you're with the investors/creditors ???
I like your stupidity... now we're guaranteeing/enforcing investments, but not contracts ???
Guess, you advocate theft, huh ?
BANCKRUPT ???
BLANCKRUPT ???
BANCKRUPMT ???
BANCKRUUMPT ???
BLANCKKRUPT ???
Gotta love teabagger/idiots.....
So pointless/clueless...
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#53 Apr 4, 2013
Bushwhacker wrote:
"Promised pension benefits are protected under both state and federal law."
Pretty sad, lying about Federal Bankruptcy law again and again, over and over, to no point really. The federal bankruptcy vs. California state law will come down to a court battle in the end. If California wins out over the federal bankruptcy law pensions will be preserved as is. If not, the pension benefits will be reduced. Pretty simple, even you should be able to understand that, slew.
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#54 Apr 4, 2013
Pretty sad, if the pensions aren't protected, taxpayers will be on the hook and pensioners will get less than what they've EARNED !!!

Pitting money making creditors against the elderly and you're with the investors/creditors ???

I like your stupidity... now we're guaranteeing/enforcing investments, but not contracts ???

Guess, you advocate theft, huh ?

BANCKRUPT ???
BLANCKRUPT ???
BANCKRUPMT ???
BANCKRUUMPT ???
BLANCKKRUPT ???

Gotta love teabagger/idiots.....

So pointless/clueless...
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#55 Apr 4, 2013
No spamming about the Eagan Mall ?? Oh right, you're a quitter and wrong about Eagan...

REALLY can't read, right ??

Looks like they overextended and didn't have the MONEY !!!

...civic improvements.."

BANCKRUPT

Need I say BANKRUPT !!!!!

Poor children, "talking" politics is SO CUTE !!!!

LMAOROTFU!

Almost as funny, as your investing "acumen"....
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#56 Apr 4, 2013
Bushwhacker wrote:
Looks like they overextended and didn't have the MONEY !!!
...civic improvements.."
Similar to the financial misfortunes of other cities in the state, the $900 million aggregate that Stockton owes to CalPERS is the city’s largest debt. Assured Guaranty, one of the city’s most prominent creditors, says it guarantees "scheduled principal and interest payments when due on municipal, public infrastructure and structured financings," and that it remains dedicated to seeing the city emerge from its stagnant fiscal condition.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics...

I didn't know offering the most generous pensions and retirement medical plans in the USA qualified as "civic improvements".
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#57 Apr 4, 2013
No spamming about the Eagan Mall ?? Oh right, you're a quitter and wrong about Eagan...

REALLY can't read, right ??

Looks like they overextended and didn't have the MONEY !!!

...civic improvements.."

BANCKRUPT

Need I say BANKRUPT !!!!!

Poor children, "talking" politics is SO CUTE !!!!

LMAOROTFU!

Almost as funny, as your investing "acumen"....
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#58 Apr 5, 2013
Similar to the financial misfortunes of other cities in the state, the $900 million aggregate that Stockton owes to CalPERS is the city’s largest debt. Assured Guaranty, one of the city’s most prominent creditors, says it guarantees "scheduled principal and interest payments when due on municipal, public infrastructure and structured financings," and that it remains dedicated to seeing the city emerge from its stagnant fiscal condition.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics ...

I didn't know offering the most generous pensions and retirement medical plans in the USA qualified as "civic improvements".
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#59 Apr 5, 2013
Pretty sad, if the pensions aren't protected, taxpayers will be on the hook and pensioners will get less than what they've EARNED !!!

Pitting money making creditors against the elderly and you're with the investors/creditors ???

I like your stupidity... now we're guaranteeing/enforcing investments, but not contracts ???

Guess, you advocate theft, huh ?

BANCKRUPT ???
BLANCKRUPT ???
BANCKRUPMT ???
BANCKRUUMPT ???
BLANCKKRUPT ???

Gotta love teabagger/idiots.....

So pointless/clueless...
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#60 Apr 5, 2013
Nearly two dozen other cities in the state, including San Jose and San Bernardino, are facing either bankruptcy or severe financial emergencies, as their bloated pension expenses draw heightened criticism. "This is just the beginning of a multi-dimensional — well, I can't say chess game because it's not a game," said attorney Karol Denniston, an expert on financial restructuring. "There's not one thing that will fix the pension system. The net message is you can't see a restructuring when the largest creditor isn't being restructured."

The question is, of course, who picks up the bill for the city’s fiscal disorder. Creditors, who poured tens of millions of dollars into bonds to help shoulder growing pension payment costs, have been left holding the bag. But the scenarios experts now draw are only a prelude to a nationwide calamity, as more and more states become weighed down by hefty pensions and reckless government spending.
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#61 Apr 5, 2013
Bushwhacker wrote:


...civic improvements.."
Similar to the financial misfortunes of other cities in the state, the $900 million aggregate that Stockton owes to CalPERS is the city’s largest debt. Assured Guaranty, one of the city’s most prominent creditors, says it guarantees "scheduled principal and interest payments when due on municipal, public infrastructure and structured financings," and that it remains dedicated to seeing the city emerge from its stagnant fiscal condition.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics ...

I didn't know offering the most generous pensions and retirement medical plans in the USA qualified as "civic improvements".
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#63 Apr 5, 2013
It's amusing, you don't consider the old folks WHO EARNED THEIR PENSIONS, creditors...

SURE.... pretend,

I'm not waiting, at a place/time I specified.... every time.
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#64 Apr 5, 2013
Bankruptcy Court Allows Stockton CA to Cut Retiree Health Benefits
By Bob Morris | 07/30/2012 | California, Economy, Headline, Pensions | 2 Comments

Stockton Record newspaper. Credit: reuters.com

In a closely-watched ruling with potentially far-reaching effects, a federal bankruptcy judge has ruled Stockton, CA may proceed with cutting health care benefits for retirees while it is in bankruptcy. This seemingly tiny crack in the dike protecting public pension benefits could easily turn into a major breach and perhaps even threaten the dike itself. Yes, this is that serious. Those who want to break public unions and their pensions will be lining up on one side while those defending the pensions will frantically be looking for ways to block bankrupt municipalities from restructuring labor and pension agreements.

Mike Shedlock, no friend of public unions, states it bluntly and succinctly:


This is a good start for what needs to happen. The next step needs to be huge clawbacks on promised benefits, preferably top down, so that those with the highest pension benefits bear the brunt of the hit.

As soon as cities realize this is the way out, a flood of bankruptcies will be on the way.

Retired employees had sued to block the Stockton cuts from happening but the judge issued a temporary order denying them and said a formal decision was coming. Stockton’s lawyers argued bankruptcy law allows the city considerable range in restructuring its finances. This includes breaking or modifying existing agreements, something that a bankruptcy judge can also do. Public unions and their pension funds enjoy rather extraordinary protection in California. The state has to make up any shortfalls in their funding. Pension agreements are difficult for an ailing city to renegotiate even as unfunded pension obligations are perhaps the biggest drain on their finances. Indeed, pension obligations are a primary reason for the Stockton bankruptcy (along with the real estate crash.)

But those rules don’t apply in bankruptcy. A city or court can simply order pension benefits be restructured and reduced and unions and pension funds have little recourse except to sue. Such lawsuits might block implementation of the changes temporarily but it’s difficult to see how they could win.

San Bernardino and Mammoth Lakes in California have also filed for bankruptcy. Compton, CA says talk of them needing to file bankruptcy is hooey even as they request an outside audit and have no reserves.(This brings to mind the old saying,“if they deny it then it must be a bigger story than you think.”) But many cities have wobbly finances like Compton will be filing bankruptcy soon enough. Pensioners, most of them quite blameless, will be hurt.
Bushwhacker

Seattle, WA

#65 Apr 5, 2013
It's amusing, you don't consider the old folks WHO EARNED THEIR PENSIONS, creditors...

SURE.... pretend,

I'm not waiting, at a place/time I specified.... every time.
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#66 Apr 8, 2013
Bushwhacker wrote:
It's amusing, you don't consider the old folks WHO EARNED THEIR PENSIONS, creditors...
SURE.... pretend,
I'm not waiting, at a place/time I specified.... every time.
Guess what, pension benefits are not guaranteed under federal law, only state law slewsie. For the bankruptcy to work, the pensions are going to have to be re-worked.

Pension Battle Looms Over Stockton, California Bankruptcy
Written by Brian Koenig

Following a burgeoning trend among cities across the country weighed down by hefty pensions and ever-increasing government spending, Stockton, California, has fallen into complete financial disarray, and a federal judge ruled Monday that the insolvent city is eligible for bankruptcy protection. Despite objections from creditors, who tried to block the bankruptcy filing because bankruptcy would mean that bondholders who financed city spending would get back from the city less than the principal that they are owed, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Christopher Klein affirmed that Stockton may proceed with a plan to reorganize its debt, adding that creditors have acted in bad faith and have failed to subsidize their portion of the costs for negotiations. Klein insisted that the city "will not be able to perform its obligations to its citizens relating to such fundamental matters as public safety, as well as other basic governmental services," without the power of bankruptcy.

The impact Klein’s verdict will have on creditors will be significant, some critics say, as companies have already doled out tens of millions of dollars to the city.“The creditors got a big black eye today,” asserted Karol Denniston, an attorney involved in the legislation that directed the city’s mandated mediation for bankruptcy protection.“Now the stage is set for the real dogfight.” The judge intimated in his decision that the city may also have to reduce its payments to the city employees' pension fund so that the city can afford to pay its bills.

But the issue of whether federal bankruptcy law overrides California’s mandate requiring pension fund debts to be honored could spell trouble for the entire state, not to mention the rest of the country, analysts contend. "The fear is that there is going to be a run on the bank," said bankruptcy lawyer Michael Sweet, who has been following the contentious trial. "'Everyone is going to be cutting CalPERS [California Public Employees' Retirement System]' payments if Stockton is permitted to do it. California's $225 billion Public Employees Retirement System already is underfunded by $87 billion, which means there are more payments due to retirees than there is money in the system."

Nearly two dozen other cities in the state, including San Jose and San Bernardino, are facing either bankruptcy or severe financial emergencies, as their bloated pension expenses draw heightened criticism. "This is just the beginning of a multi-dimensional — well, I can't say chess game because it's not a game," said attorney Karol Denniston, an expert on financial restructuring. "There's not one thing that will fix the pension system. The net message is you can't see a restructuring when the largest creditor isn't being restructured."

The question is, of course, who picks up the bill for the city’s fiscal disorder. Creditors, who poured tens of millions of dollars into bonds to help shoulder growing pension payment costs, have been left holding the bag. But the scenarios experts now draw are only a prelude to a nationwide calamity, as more and more states become weighed down by hefty pensions and reckless government spending.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics ...
non-starter

Saint Paul, MN

#68 Apr 8, 2013
Similar to the financial misfortunes of other cities in the state, the $900 million aggregate that Stockton owes to CalPERS is the city’s largest debt. Assured Guaranty, one of the city’s most prominent creditors, says it guarantees "scheduled principal and interest payments when due on municipal, public infrastructure and structured financings," and that it remains dedicated to seeing the city emerge from its stagnant fiscal condition.

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