Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72025 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70644 Apr 1, 2014
DESCENT SAFER THAN ASCENT

It's safer to open up to the dynamic descent into the nervous system of the higher planes of the consciousness-force that lie above the head than to awaken the consciousness-force that lies dormant in its force dimension at the base of the spine thereby causing it to ascend up the nervous system.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70645 Apr 1, 2014
STEFANO COLONNA wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see how atheism could be considered a null hypothesis.
Atheism, in gross lines is defined as the denying of the existence of gods. It per se is a position.
Atheism denies whereas Theism affirms the existence of god. I don't see them as a starting point. Both rappresent a conclusion.
Agnosticism is already a conclusion rather than a starting point, so I discard that as well.
One person should be extraneous to any position and through rationalization/investigation arrive to the conclusion.
When I say atheist, I mean agnostic-atheist (or simply agnostic)- one who admits it's all unknown and (for now) unknowable. He does not state there is no god. That guy would be a gnostic atheist.

So why do you call agnosticism a conclusion?

He says "I see no evidence of god" therefore I take no position either way. I'm a fence sitter.

I learned all this Catholic theology growing up and finally asked how we know any of it is true.

The response was, "Fatih." That's where I got off the bus.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70646 Apr 1, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Definitions and labels get messy because their use has changed over time, and so not everyone is on the same page with them.
From a pragmatic standpoint, what we refer to as agnostic atheists is essentially what you describe in your last sentence - "One person should be extraneous to any position and through rationalization/investigation arrive to the conclusion."
In essence, agnostic atheists don't deny the existence of deities, but rather, withhold belief until such time as credible evidence is provided to them. In this pragmatic approach, the default, then, is non-belief. I believe this is what Former was referring to when he said null-hypothesis.
Thanks. If anyone would understand, it would be you!

(I should have read ahead, as usual..)
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#70647 Apr 1, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

Besides from arrogant, you are obviously wrong.

Google Hasidism and devekut, for a start.
I haven't found a trace of nondualism - complete union via trance of the object with the subject - in Hasidism and Devekut.

If the practice found in Hasidism and Devekut culminates in the experience of nondualism, then the experiencer (sage) should become one with G-d in that state of the deepest trance.

Does Hasidism and Devekut say that the nondual experience results in perfect union in consciousness with HaShem after which the sage can stand up and declare, "I am HaShem"? No!

To declare, "I am HaShem" is a blasphemy in any variant of Judaism.

So, Judaism, in any of its variants, is stuck on the lowly level of dualism.

LOL.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70648 Apr 1, 2014
Hasidism and Devekut can be considered nondual in nature only if the experiencer (sage) can declare "I am HaShem" after experiencing via trance a perfect union in consciousness of the individual self with the self of HaShem.

Such is not the case with Hasidism and Devekut.

In fact, it would be considered blasphemous to say, "I am HaShem" whether or not one experiences the nondual union with HaShem.

LOL

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70649 Apr 1, 2014
BOTTOM LINE:

To declare "I am HaShem" is a blasphemy in any variant of Judaism.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70650 Apr 1, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But is she still Jewish?
I think so but I'm not sure. She lives in Europe.

I know I mentioned this but many years ago my wife conducted a sort of "comparative religion" review (as my dad told me he did as a young adult).

Both searching I suppose.... My wife concluded that Judaism was possibly the most reasonable of the ones she looked at. She thought the extra leap the Christians made in the story was a bridge too far. She wasn't raised in any particular religion. She doesn't follow any religion but I thought it was interesting anyway.

My dad OTOH was an altar boy as a kid. He said "All the miracles occurred in the Catholic church." Let's just say, I was too young at the time to counter that with explaining the "self-reporting" "confirmation bias" etc.....He was born in 1926 and wasn't about to leave the church he was born into. Regardless of what his review showed him.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70651 Apr 1, 2014
Judaism is stuck on the inferior level of dualism.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70652 Apr 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I learned all this Catholic theology growing up and finally asked how we know any of it is true.
The response was, "Fatih." That's where I got off the bus.
Fatih? Special Catholic war cry?

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70653 Apr 1, 2014
Dualism is superseded by qualified nondualism and qualified nondualism is exceeded by nondualism.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70654 Apr 1, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
BOTTOM LINE:
To declare "I am HaShem" is a blasphemy in any variant of Judaism.
Unless you are prophesying, which is a state of devekut

So you are wrong, again.

shocking, shocking, shocking...

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70655 Apr 1, 2014
Devekut is a discipline that teaches closeness to G-d but in no way does it preach becoming G-d via the union in consciousness in deep trance of the subject with the object. Devekut does not teach that a human psychic can become G-d. For a human being to declare, "I am G-d" is a blasphemy in Judaism.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70656 Apr 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I think so but I'm not sure. She lives in Europe.
I know I mentioned this but many years ago my wife conducted a sort of "comparative religion" review (as my dad told me he did as a young adult).
Both searching I suppose.... My wife concluded that Judaism was possibly the most reasonable of the ones she looked at. She thought the extra leap the Christians made in the story was a bridge too far. She wasn't raised in any particular religion. She doesn't follow any religion but I thought it was interesting anyway.
My dad OTOH was an altar boy as a kid. He said "All the miracles occurred in the Catholic church." Let's just say, I was too young at the time to counter that with explaining the "self-reporting" "confirmation bias" etc.....He was born in 1926 and wasn't about to leave the church he was born into. Regardless of what his review showed him.
Its all a leap - as you might say, one pink elephant for another

But the disadvantage of Christianity is that they partially base it on Hebrew text, without taking the time to study it in the actual language on the lay level. So the OT portion becomes a grand game of telephone. That never ends well.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70657 Apr 1, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
If she is telling me she sees a pink elephant, then she is NOT acting normally. So I would ding her on basis of her behavior. If she told me that God talks to her and tells her what to to do, I would not hire her (I might think that personally that this is an interesting lifestyle, but not for my kids). If she said she sees God in everything she does, then I might hire her (but keep an eye on her). That's relatively normal.
I am not sure where you are coming from. But its also a question of what type of values one wants to expose to their children. I dont value the pink elephant religion. I might value other forms of religion though. I have nothing against Christianity, or Christian nannys, provided it is kept within acceptable bounds.
Who says we're talking about Christians? Many Jews believe in god too.(Note I'm not saying how many...)

So you won't answer my pink elephant question without changing it to her acting abnormal.....moving right along.....

So it's ok if god talks to your future nanny but not if he gives her advice or guidance?

Though I would think many people (of those who pray) pray for strength/guidance etc...

If she see god on her toast, that's evidently ok too. Ok.

My questions had to do more with mental health/stability than with the theology itself.

Just don't ask where we're going with this....not sure.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#70658 Apr 1, 2014
JOEL wrote:
<quoted text>
I haven't found a trace of nondualism - complete union via trance of the object with the subject - in Hasidism and Devekut.
If the practice found in Hasidism and Devekut culminates in the experience of nondualism, then the experiencer (sage) should become one with G-d in that state of the deepest trance.
Does Hasidism and Devekut say that the nondual experience results in perfect union in consciousness with HaShem after which the sage can stand up and declare, "I am HaShem"? No!
To declare, "I am HaShem" is a blasphemy in any variant of Judaism.
So, Judaism, in any of its variants, is stuck on the lowly level of dualism.
LOL.
There are no Devekut Policemen that I know of, who might say either way.

So I dont where you get any of this.

To say "I am hashem" in ordinary consciousness would be theologically fraught - but that is normal consciousness.

I am not sure what you mean as blasphemy. Thats an English term. You would have to connect it to a negative mitzvot. maybe chillul hashem. But probably not.

A while ago FR called you an intellectual light weight. So far I have yet to see anything from your side that proves otherwise. Your critique is really juvenile.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70659 Apr 1, 2014
Hasidism that teaches the immanence of G-d in the universe does not ever say that the awakened human consciousness can become equal to the consciousness of G-d via the subject-object union. Hasidism does not teach that a human being can declare, "I am G-d". So, Hasidism is not nondualism.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#70660 Apr 1, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Fatih? Special Catholic war cry?
I've heard many times that faith is "a gift." "The gift of faith" and so on.

I feel so ripped off! I never got mine..

:))

April Fools!

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70661 Apr 1, 2014
CONCLUSION:

Neither Hasidism nor Devekut has anything to do with nondualism. In nondualism, the human being can stand up and declare, "I am G-d" on experiencing the nondual consciousness in which the divide between the subject and the object breaks down. Hasidism and Devekut are ignorant strains of dualism which is an irrational doctrine that seeks to separate cause from its own effects and gives rise to creationist beliefs and tribalism. LOL.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70662 Apr 1, 2014
GIST OF NONDUALISM

From the nondual source, we manifest as holons and the individual holon on awakening to its full potential can rise back to its sublime nondual status and become one with its source.

TAT Tvam Asi - THAT am I.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#70663 Apr 1, 2014
The Kabbalah that originated in ancient Chaldea borrowed its major ideas and main practices from the Tantra especially the Kashmiri variant of Tantra which is mostly occult-based.

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