Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 71944 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66719 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Right, and I posted the correct definition of the word religion.
Now I remember.
You're making up your own definition for the word.
No wonder I'm confused.
This is why we have a supposedly common language, until someone
decides to call up down.
By your definition, young men going out to bars at night to seek
women - that would be a religion. Some might agree. I think we've
all had that calling.
Again, I posted sources.

You need to get out more often and speak or study with others.

Here is another source from a Jewish perspective. Kind of heavy - but since you brought up the topic. His basic thesis - Evolution is God. Then he backs it up with Jewish sources.

http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Judaism-Rethink...

And here is an article comparing some forms of Bhuddism with Hasidic thought
http://realitysandwich.com/47710/nonduality_b...

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66720 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>

Why even count yourself a follower of Judaism?
It seems what you really value is meditation.
Now you are sounding like Hughbe

I find it arrogant that you are telling me what a follower of Judaism should be. Especially since I have been posting sources for the last few days to show that I am far from out on a limb

----------

Some housekeeping: back to religion definition. I mentioned this point earlier. Your definition of religion is steeped in Christian western tradition. Therefore I have no problem critiquing it, and asserting it that it is not always applicable. Its NOT the only definition out there.

Another example - the oft Christian error, of labeling Judaism as "a faith".

Its not.

However, many Jews accept that definition in polite society because they want to go with the flow and not offend their host society. Faith is purely a Christian idea. In Hebrew we dont even have a word for faith, the closest word we have is "emunah" which has a slightly difference shade of meaning. And,. as I posted before our closest word for religion (Ha dat - the law) doesnt even consider the concept of faith.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66721 Feb 3, 2014
To whoever is judging me, I bless you!

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66722 Feb 3, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Got a new favourite show -- "Venture Bros"
Imagine Jonny Quest if it was written and directed by John Waters and Sam Peckinpah ... freakin' awesome.
will look it up
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66723 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I can compare you to "the divine" in a way. In both cases I dont know the real you, what I know is how you relate to me, which boils down to my EXPERIENCE of you, not the essence of you,(which btw isnt really you anyhow, being that a large percentage of you is bacteria)
Most of both of us is water, but I wouldn't consider that to be our essence.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
For the zillionith time, I tend not to be a theist,. So I dont believe in an external God in the sky. Which is what you mean, from a Christian perspective, when you say God.
Don't forget Judaism. The god concepts exists there. I didn't make it up.

Did you agree that man created god? I forget.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its a mitzvah to pray with others. Let alone the other obvious benefits
And you wonder why we keep coming back to god:

In its primary meaning, the Hebrew word mitzvah ("commandment", &#1502;&#1460;&#15 10;&#1456;&#1493;& #1464;&#1492;,[mit&#86 5;s&#712;va], Biblical: mi&#7779;wah; plural &#1502;&#1460;&#15 10;&#1456;&#1493;& #1493;&#1465;&#1514; mitzvot [mit&#865;s&#712;vot], Biblical: mi&#7779;woth; from &#1510;&#1460;&#14 93;&#1464;&#1468;& #1492; &#7779;iwwah "command") refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God. It is a word used in Judaism to refer to the 613 commandments given in the Torah (at Mount Sinai, where all the Jews accepted the Torah, saying "We will do, and we will listen") and the seven rabbinic commandments instituted later for a total of 620. According to the teachings of Judaism, all moral laws are, or are derived from, divine commandments.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66724 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You are hung up on theism. Its ok, its probably your Christian background.
Someday if you get the opportunity, you should learn more about the systems of about Yoga, martial arts, or zen bhuddism,
That said, I offered a definition that was more in synch with my belief system. I didnt even invent it, I adopted it from Hasidic and post-Hasidic thought - primarily the work of AJ Heschel - probably one of the most famous Jewish theologians of the 20th century.
Then I found a nice Christian man who essentially said the same thing.
You dont have to agree with it - but I offered it just to show I am not out on a limb on any of this.
As shown above, it's your own language/words that keeps us coming back to god - mitzvah, divine etc.

You won't see many atheists using the word divine.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66725 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

...Some housekeeping: back to religion definition. I mentioned this point earlier. Your definition of religion is steeped in Christian western tradition. Therefore I have no problem critiquing it, and asserting it that it is not always applicable. Its NOT the only definition out there.
Another example - the oft Christian error, of labeling Judaism as "a faith".
Its not.
However, many Jews accept that definition in polite society because they want to go with the flow and not offend their host society. Faith is purely a Christian idea. In Hebrew we dont even have a word for faith, the closest word we have is "emunah" which has a slightly difference shade of meaning. And,. as I posted before our closest word for religion (Ha dat - the law) doesnt even consider the concept of faith.
A while back I once again posted the "What Jews believe" points and asked you which you believe in. One was belief in god. The first one I think.

In order to believe in god I posit requires faith. Do you agree?

Though I also stated that each and every participant need not believe in 100% of the scripture. Same with cafeteria Catholics.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66726 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Most of both of us is water, but I wouldn't consider that to be our essence.
<quoted text>
Don't forget Judaism. The god concepts exists there. I didn't make it up.
Did you agree that man created god? I forget.
<quoted text>
And you wonder why we keep coming back to god:
In its primary meaning, the Hebrew word mitzvah ("commandment", &#1502;&#1460;&#15 10;&#1456;&#1493;& #1464;&#1492;,[mit&#86 5;s&#712;va], Biblical: mi&#7779;wah; plural &#1502;&#1460;&#15 10;&#1456;&#1493;& #1493;&#1465;&#1514; mitzvot [mit&#865;s&#712;vot], Biblical: mi&#7779;woth; from &#1510;&#1460;&#14 93;&#1464;&#1468;& #1492; &#7779;iwwah "command") refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God. It is a word used in Judaism to refer to the 613 commandments given in the Torah (at Mount Sinai, where all the Jews accepted the Torah, saying "We will do, and we will listen") and the seven rabbinic commandments instituted later for a total of 620. According to the teachings of Judaism, all moral laws are, or are derived from, divine commandments.
Never asserted that Judaism lacked God. Only that there were multiple perspectives on the concept

Straw argument dismissed

Man creates Godtalk certainly

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66727 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
As shown above, it's your own language/words that keeps us coming back to god - mitzvah, divine etc.
You won't see many atheists using the word divine.
Why do I care what words Atheists use?

We are talking about religious expressions.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66728 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you are sounding like Hughbe
I find it arrogant that you are telling me what a follower of Judaism should be. Especially since I have been posting sources for the last few days to show that I am far from out on a limb ......
This I shouldn't do and perhaps it is out of frustration.

One the one hand you say you don't believe in god, but on the other you say that everything (evolution, the interconnectedness of everything etc) is god. So even if you do, how can you be wrong?! It gets to be like herding cats for a guy like me who is actually trying to follow you.

Then when I ask you why go to Temple you refer back to a set of rules that invokes god.

Perhaps I have it backwards. That you do believe in god but just don't want to admit it.

Or maybe we should just leave it alone.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66729 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Never asserted that Judaism lacked God. Only that there were multiple perspectives on the concept
Straw argument dismissed
Man creates Godtalk certainly
Why a straw man when you gave it as a reason to go to temple?

Did man create god?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66730 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do I care what words Atheists use?
We are talking about religious expressions.
Now you're just going in circles.

I say religion means god.

You say no.

I say divine means god. You say no, it's a religious term.

Finally something we can agree on.

Hoisted on your own petard!

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66731 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
A while back I once again posted the "What Jews believe" points and asked you which you believe in. One was belief in god. The first one I think.
In order to believe in god I posit requires faith. Do you agree?
Though I also stated that each and every participant need not believe in 100% of the scripture. Same with cafeteria Catholics.
What we arguing over with is what a concept or model of God is.

In Judaism, the highest value is not belief but behavior.

Judaism was not forced into a system of belief (i.e. its beliefs systemized into a list) until Maimonides in the 12th century.

As a westerner and a Christian (kind of the same thing) you keep thinking of religion as a system of beliefs instead of a system of behavior. Thats at the crux of our discussion.
wow

Gurnee, IL

#66732 Feb 3, 2014
Jew on Jew violence, sounds like a chicago issue of black on black violence ,why do races kill each other instead of coming together, never did make much sense?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66733 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Why a straw man when you gave it as a reason to go to temple?
Did man create god?
Strictly speaking there is no reason to go to temple. There is a mitzvah to pray with others however. Its a "commanded" behavior.

God concept is created everytime we focus ourselves to an other.Man creates symbols which can allude to something else.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66734 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you're just going in circles.
I say religion means god.
You say no.
I say divine means god. You say no, it's a religious term.
Finally something we can agree on.
Hoisted on your own petard!
I never said religion didnt mean God. I said that there are multiple definitions and perspectives on what religion is.

Four days out or so, and you are still misquoting me.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66735 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
This I shouldn't do and perhaps it is out of frustration.
One the one hand you say you don't believe in god, but on the other you say that everything (evolution, the interconnectedness of everything etc) is god. So even if you do, how can you be wrong?! It gets to be like herding cats for a guy like me who is actually trying to follow you.
Then when I ask you why go to Temple you refer back to a set of rules that invokes god.
Perhaps I have it backwards. That you do believe in god but just don't want to admit it.
Or maybe we should just leave it alone.
I dont believe in the theist notion of God external to our reality. I believe God is our reality, and that there is nothing but God. I.E. we are all within God.

My position is not right or wrong. Its just a perspective. You keep trying to use reason to disagree OR agree with me. I dont use reason. I use experience. And as I stated before, I dont expect you to agree with my experience, because that would be inauthentic for you. If you are serious in trying to figure out what you REALLY believe, you have to search it yourself, and THEN maybe use the language out there to express it.

You have been so hung up on God that you never asked me why follow the mitzvot. Though perhaps that was what you were getting at indirectly when you asked me why go to Temple.

I follow the mitzvot as they provide me opportunities to be closer to that state of Being that you or might call God. Think of it as a consciousness raising (awareness raising) technique. Mitzvot are forms of meditation.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66736 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
What we arguing over with is what a concept or model of God is.
In Judaism, the highest value is not belief but behavior.
Judaism was not forced into a system of belief (i.e. its beliefs systemized into a list) until Maimonides in the 12th century.
As a westerner and a Christian (kind of the same thing) you keep thinking of religion as a system of beliefs instead of a system of behavior. Thats at the crux of our discussion.
Again you're going in circles by repeating material which I already posted.

Nothing you just posted adds anything new to the discussion.

Christian also aren't supposed to believe but then behave any way they want.
(at least the way I recall it, it's not ok to believe but then go out and kill someone)

Stating that A is more important than B does not mean that B is not important.

Can you relate to that?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66737 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Again you're going in circles by repeating material which I already posted.
Nothing you just posted adds anything new to the discussion.
Christian also aren't supposed to believe but then behave any way they want.
(at least the way I recall it, it's not ok to believe but then go out and kill someone)
Stating that A is more important than B does not mean that B is not important.
Can you relate to that?
My understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, that one is a Christian if one accepts (i.e. believes) Jesus into his heart. Then behavior follows that.

Its not the same for Jews. One is not Jewish by accepting (believeing in) God. One is Jewish by accepting (i.e. behaving) the laws of Moses (halacha / mitzvot). Then belief follows that (in fact belief in God is one of many mitzvot).

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66738 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Strictly speaking there is no reason to go to temple. There is a mitzvah to pray with others however. Its a "commanded" behavior.
Right, as I posted, commanded by god. "[mitzvah].....refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God......"

So is this why you go?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
God concept is created everytime we focus ourselves to an other.Man creates symbols which can allude to something else.
So man did create god? In a sense?

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