Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72030 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66726 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Most of both of us is water, but I wouldn't consider that to be our essence.
<quoted text>
Don't forget Judaism. The god concepts exists there. I didn't make it up.
Did you agree that man created god? I forget.
<quoted text>
And you wonder why we keep coming back to god:
In its primary meaning, the Hebrew word mitzvah ("commandment", &#1502;&#1460;&#15 10;&#1456;&#1493;& #1464;&#1492;,[mit&#86 5;s&#712;va], Biblical: mi&#7779;wah; plural &#1502;&#1460;&#15 10;&#1456;&#1493;& #1493;&#1465;&#1514; mitzvot [mit&#865;s&#712;vot], Biblical: mi&#7779;woth; from &#1510;&#1460;&#14 93;&#1464;&#1468;& #1492; &#7779;iwwah "command") refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God. It is a word used in Judaism to refer to the 613 commandments given in the Torah (at Mount Sinai, where all the Jews accepted the Torah, saying "We will do, and we will listen") and the seven rabbinic commandments instituted later for a total of 620. According to the teachings of Judaism, all moral laws are, or are derived from, divine commandments.
Never asserted that Judaism lacked God. Only that there were multiple perspectives on the concept

Straw argument dismissed

Man creates Godtalk certainly

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66727 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
As shown above, it's your own language/words that keeps us coming back to god - mitzvah, divine etc.
You won't see many atheists using the word divine.
Why do I care what words Atheists use?

We are talking about religious expressions.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66728 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you are sounding like Hughbe
I find it arrogant that you are telling me what a follower of Judaism should be. Especially since I have been posting sources for the last few days to show that I am far from out on a limb ......
This I shouldn't do and perhaps it is out of frustration.

One the one hand you say you don't believe in god, but on the other you say that everything (evolution, the interconnectedness of everything etc) is god. So even if you do, how can you be wrong?! It gets to be like herding cats for a guy like me who is actually trying to follow you.

Then when I ask you why go to Temple you refer back to a set of rules that invokes god.

Perhaps I have it backwards. That you do believe in god but just don't want to admit it.

Or maybe we should just leave it alone.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66729 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Never asserted that Judaism lacked God. Only that there were multiple perspectives on the concept
Straw argument dismissed
Man creates Godtalk certainly
Why a straw man when you gave it as a reason to go to temple?

Did man create god?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66730 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do I care what words Atheists use?
We are talking about religious expressions.
Now you're just going in circles.

I say religion means god.

You say no.

I say divine means god. You say no, it's a religious term.

Finally something we can agree on.

Hoisted on your own petard!

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66731 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
A while back I once again posted the "What Jews believe" points and asked you which you believe in. One was belief in god. The first one I think.
In order to believe in god I posit requires faith. Do you agree?
Though I also stated that each and every participant need not believe in 100% of the scripture. Same with cafeteria Catholics.
What we arguing over with is what a concept or model of God is.

In Judaism, the highest value is not belief but behavior.

Judaism was not forced into a system of belief (i.e. its beliefs systemized into a list) until Maimonides in the 12th century.

As a westerner and a Christian (kind of the same thing) you keep thinking of religion as a system of beliefs instead of a system of behavior. Thats at the crux of our discussion.
wow

Zion, IL

#66732 Feb 3, 2014
Jew on Jew violence, sounds like a chicago issue of black on black violence ,why do races kill each other instead of coming together, never did make much sense?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66733 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Why a straw man when you gave it as a reason to go to temple?
Did man create god?
Strictly speaking there is no reason to go to temple. There is a mitzvah to pray with others however. Its a "commanded" behavior.

God concept is created everytime we focus ourselves to an other.Man creates symbols which can allude to something else.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66734 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you're just going in circles.
I say religion means god.
You say no.
I say divine means god. You say no, it's a religious term.
Finally something we can agree on.
Hoisted on your own petard!
I never said religion didnt mean God. I said that there are multiple definitions and perspectives on what religion is.

Four days out or so, and you are still misquoting me.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66735 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
This I shouldn't do and perhaps it is out of frustration.
One the one hand you say you don't believe in god, but on the other you say that everything (evolution, the interconnectedness of everything etc) is god. So even if you do, how can you be wrong?! It gets to be like herding cats for a guy like me who is actually trying to follow you.
Then when I ask you why go to Temple you refer back to a set of rules that invokes god.
Perhaps I have it backwards. That you do believe in god but just don't want to admit it.
Or maybe we should just leave it alone.
I dont believe in the theist notion of God external to our reality. I believe God is our reality, and that there is nothing but God. I.E. we are all within God.

My position is not right or wrong. Its just a perspective. You keep trying to use reason to disagree OR agree with me. I dont use reason. I use experience. And as I stated before, I dont expect you to agree with my experience, because that would be inauthentic for you. If you are serious in trying to figure out what you REALLY believe, you have to search it yourself, and THEN maybe use the language out there to express it.

You have been so hung up on God that you never asked me why follow the mitzvot. Though perhaps that was what you were getting at indirectly when you asked me why go to Temple.

I follow the mitzvot as they provide me opportunities to be closer to that state of Being that you or might call God. Think of it as a consciousness raising (awareness raising) technique. Mitzvot are forms of meditation.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66736 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
What we arguing over with is what a concept or model of God is.
In Judaism, the highest value is not belief but behavior.
Judaism was not forced into a system of belief (i.e. its beliefs systemized into a list) until Maimonides in the 12th century.
As a westerner and a Christian (kind of the same thing) you keep thinking of religion as a system of beliefs instead of a system of behavior. Thats at the crux of our discussion.
Again you're going in circles by repeating material which I already posted.

Nothing you just posted adds anything new to the discussion.

Christian also aren't supposed to believe but then behave any way they want.
(at least the way I recall it, it's not ok to believe but then go out and kill someone)

Stating that A is more important than B does not mean that B is not important.

Can you relate to that?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66737 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Again you're going in circles by repeating material which I already posted.
Nothing you just posted adds anything new to the discussion.
Christian also aren't supposed to believe but then behave any way they want.
(at least the way I recall it, it's not ok to believe but then go out and kill someone)
Stating that A is more important than B does not mean that B is not important.
Can you relate to that?
My understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, that one is a Christian if one accepts (i.e. believes) Jesus into his heart. Then behavior follows that.

Its not the same for Jews. One is not Jewish by accepting (believeing in) God. One is Jewish by accepting (i.e. behaving) the laws of Moses (halacha / mitzvot). Then belief follows that (in fact belief in God is one of many mitzvot).

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66738 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Strictly speaking there is no reason to go to temple. There is a mitzvah to pray with others however. Its a "commanded" behavior.
Right, as I posted, commanded by god. "[mitzvah].....refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God......"

So is this why you go?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
God concept is created everytime we focus ourselves to an other.Man creates symbols which can allude to something else.
So man did create god? In a sense?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66739 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said religion didnt mean God. I said that there are multiple definitions and perspectives on what religion is.
Four days out or so, and you are still misquoting me.
?

If religion DOES mean god then what is
a non-theist relgion.

Dizzy yet (from the circles that is)?

:))

And allow me to rephrase since you said I misquoted you.

How about "Religion does not HAVE to mean god?"

I still maintain that it does. Is that better?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66740 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont believe in the theist notion of God external to our reality. I believe God is our reality, and that there is nothing but God. I.E. we are all within God.
My position is not right or wrong. Its just a perspective. You keep trying to use reason to disagree OR agree with me. I dont use reason. I use experience. And as I stated before, I dont expect you to agree with my experience, because that would be inauthentic for you. If you are serious in trying to figure out what you REALLY believe, you have to search it yourself, and THEN maybe use the language out there to express it.
You have been so hung up on God that you never asked me why follow the mitzvot. Though perhaps that was what you were getting at indirectly when you asked me why go to Temple.
I follow the mitzvot as they provide me opportunities to be closer to that state of Being that you or might call God. Think of it as a consciousness raising (awareness raising) technique. Mitzvot are forms of meditation.
I did ask that question right before I read this post.

You say " I believe God is our reality..." To that I have no response.

I don't use that word in my own life or for my own experience. As you say,
it would not be or feel authentic to me. Different strokes and all that.

If you find your practice to be therapeutic then it's good for you.

That's the bottom line: It works for you.

I do appreciate your explaining it. Obviously you didn't have to do that.

Thank you.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66741 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Right, as I posted, commanded by god. "[mitzvah].....refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God......"
So is this why you go?
<quoted text>
So man did create god? In a sense?
Man created the God concept, but it is an allusion to something that is beyond thought and language.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66742 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>?
If religion DOES mean god then what is
a non-theist relgion.
Dizzy yet (from the circles that is)?
:))
And allow me to rephrase since you said I misquoted you.
How about "Religion does not HAVE to mean god?"
I still maintain that it does. Is that better?
I gave you some sources before for non-theist religion

here is a definition of panentheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism#Juda...

Panentheism (from Greek &#960;&#8118;&#957 ; (pân) "all"; &#7952;&#957; (en) "in"; and &#952;&#949;&#972; &#962; (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force[1]) interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[2]

In panentheism, the universe in the first formulation is practically the whole itself. In the second formulation, the universe and the divine are not ontologically equivalent. In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "transcends", "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God,[2] like in the concept of Tzimtzum.

Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism.[3][4] Hasidic Judaism merges the elite ideal of nullification to paradoxical transcendent Divine Panentheism, through intellectual articulation of inner dimensions of Kabbalah, with the populist emphasis on the panentheistic Divine immanence in everything and deeds of kindness.

Judaism[edit]
While mainstream Rabbinic Judaism is classically monotheistic, and follows in the footsteps of the Aristotelian theologian Maimonides, the panentheistic conception of God can be found among certain mystical Jewish traditions. A leading scholar of Kabbalah, Moshe Idel[37] ascribes this doctrine to the kabbalistic system of Rabbi Moses Cordovero (1522–1570) and in the eighteenth century to the Baal Shem Tov, founder of the Hasidic movement, as well as his contemporary, Rabbi Menahem Mendel, the Maggid of Bar. There is some debate as to whether Lurianic Kabbalah, with its doctrine of Tzimtzum, can be regarded as panentheistic.

According to Hasidism, The infinite Ein Sof is incorporeal, and exists in a state that is both transcendent and immanent. Aspects of panentheism are also evident in the theology of Reconstructionist Judaism as presented in the writings of Mordecai Kaplan.[citation needed]
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66743 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, that one is a Christian if one accepts (i.e. believes) Jesus into his heart. Then behavior follows that.
Its not the same for Jews. One is not Jewish by accepting (believeing in) God. One is Jewish by accepting (i.e. behaving) the laws of Moses (halacha / mitzvot). Then belief follows that (in fact belief in God is one of many mitzvot).
People believe different things.

I posted "What Jews believe" including belief in god but you don't per se.

Christians also have "rules" but people believe what they believe. or not.

Some choose to take it all only as allegory, for example.

It seems you want to say the Christians are all robotic followers while Jews are thoughtful, thinking types. Christians also have free will.

Belief in some form is part of any religion or why bother with it? How about "I believe it brings me closer to humanity..."
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66744 Feb 3, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Man created the God concept, but it is an allusion to something that is beyond thought and language.
Why do you think Jews believe god commanded the mitzvah?

Many years ago it was written. They created the god concept
then wrote that he issued commandments?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66745 Feb 3, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I did ask that question right before I read this post.
You say " I believe God is our reality..." To that I have no response.
I don't use that word in my own life or for my own experience. As you say,
it would not be or feel authentic to me. Different strokes and all that.
If you find your practice to be therapeutic then it's good for you.
That's the bottom line: It works for you.
I do appreciate your explaining it. Obviously you didn't have to do that.
Thank you.
I am big on the notion of authentic spirituality.

You have to approach the issue from where you are. Many people dont. They try to fit themselves into preconceived boxes provided by their religion, and then go through the motions, ignoring their intuitive dissonance. Instead of figuring out where they stand on their own, and then looking to their tradition for language that MAY express their position. Most world religions are robust enough to offer something to everyone, if they feel the need.

Of course I have it easier because I come from a religion that stresses practice first, and belief second. Still need belief, but it has its place, after practice. Plus Judaism is philosophically compatible with agnosticism as well as nonduality. Its not so compatible with orthodox atheism (unless you are a Humanistic Jew).

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