Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72042 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61901 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

But yet, many fundamentalists, who lack both Hebrew language skills and the ability to appreciate perspective, harp on the gay citations, and still eat shrimp.
Eating shrimp is a minor violation of mitzvot and calls for makkot or lashes but homosexuality is considered with revulsion and is like breaking the shabbat considered heinous enough to put the homosexual to death.

This is the difference - major enough.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61902 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

To be fair, what you call the OT has as many contradictions.
NT is an improvement on the Tanach in key philosophical terms like for instance its reference to nondualism that is far superior to the monolatry and dualism of the Tanach and in some other areas like mindless rituals the NT shows a more more sensible than a rigid approach.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61903 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

Our experience with religious homophobes here in the US is that they are often gay but repressed, until they realize enough is enough. Then they go public. In a big way.
It's not always true that the biggest homophobes are gay.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#61904 Nov 4, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
Eating shrimp is a minor violation of mitzvot and calls for makkot or lashes but homosexuality is considered with revulsion and is like breaking the shabbat considered heinous enough to put the homosexual to death.
This is the difference - major enough.
Not true. The passage is usually translated as "(he) surely put to death" but a closer reading of the passage in the native language reveals that it is in third person - i.e. it is not necessarily directed at the transgressor - its equally directed at the action - i.e. the action will lead to death (kind of like your evolutionary spin on things)- plus its in the plural..

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61905 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

To be fair, what you call the OT has as many contradictions. Its the application that matters. And why Jews have an oral tradition as well - to bring some order and make the value system livable.
That is why we have the Talmud with its stress on Mishnah and Gemara.

I question several interpretations since to know the ethos and the perspective of a particular teaching from Torah one would have to have the consciousness of Moshe who revealed it to us and so the exact essence gets lost in oral rendition and in interpretations...I'll rather go straight to the source than listen to the comments given by immature intermediaries...

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61906 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

"Turning the other cheek" - that was a blatant play on words. Not even an acknowledgement? I am hurt - it was probably one of my better ideas in a while.
I have a funnier take - Hey, I have turned both my cheeks to you to hit and now I have no more cheeks to turn! LOL.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#61907 Nov 4, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not always true that the biggest homophobes are gay.
I agree. But with the "publically" religious it happens a lot.

And in the case of Hughbe, where every other reference is to sex, it is a given. The boy is crying, SCREAMING, for help.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61908 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

But he pushes the same views now as he did when he first appeared. Not very much evolution on his part. If anything, he has gotten more angry.
No, no, that's a wrong evaluation of Hugh.

Hugh has evolved in some ways and become more mature, mellowed, become more poised and learned a lot by coming online and talking to posters, here.

This is very evident to me.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#61909 Nov 4, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
Eating shrimp is a minor violation of mitzvot and calls for makkot or lashes but homosexuality is considered with revulsion and is like breaking the shabbat considered heinous enough to put the homosexual to death.
This is the difference - major enough.
the commentary notes that NEITHER punishment was ever enacted. This is where perspective comes in.

The working application of the tanach (i.e. the Talmud) does not proscribe either penalty for either situation either. On the other hand, there is no shortgage of penalties for other offenses.(Understanding, of course, that the Hughbes of the world dont bother to read the commentaries..)

A more balanced interpretation of the text, in my opinion, is that there are some uncomfortable allusions, but on the whole, native followers (i,e. mos mainstream Jews) normally dont run with these towards the most negative applications like the fundamentalists do.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61910 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

Maybe that is a reaction to his domestic life.
His problem could be could financial.

He's not well off in any way and knows nothing about luxury or about the high life.

Well, anyway, it doesn't matter.

Hope he progresses on all fronts.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61911 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

i.e. it is not necessarily directed at the transgressor - its equally directed at the action - i.e. the action will lead to death
Either way, it is the death rap for the homo.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#61912 Nov 4, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
That is why we have the Talmud with its stress on Mishnah and Gemara.
I question several interpretations since to know the ethos and the perspective of a particular teaching from Torah one would have to have the consciousness of Moshe who revealed it to us and so the exact essence gets lost in oral rendition and in interpretations...I'll rather go straight to the source than listen to the comments given by immature intermediaries...
If you have a direct line to Moshe, great. Most of us don't, so we have to settle.

Settling isnt such a bad thing, though, IMO. Most of the time the elders have already analyzed and debated all (or most of the) angles, saving time.

Thank you for discussing this in a human manner, by the way. See, we should talk more often.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#61913 Nov 4, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
No, no, that's a wrong evaluation of Hugh.
Hugh has evolved in some ways and become more mature, mellowed, become more poised and learned a lot by coming online and talking to posters, here.
This is very evident to me.
then whats up with his jihad against the rabbis? Who is asking him to bother to tilt at windmills? The guy has probably never met an orthodox Jew in his life.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#61914 Nov 4, 2013
gotta go for a few hours

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61915 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

I agree. But with the "publically" religious it happens a lot.
Not really.

Back here, most Jewish leaders are moral (non-promiscuous), straight and stay married to one woman for life but fluency in Hebrew is lacking as most speak either English or Marathi (a local language).

I don't go by generalizations.

Anyway, every human being is bisexual to some degree or the other.

So, depending on what is prominent in the nature and at what phase in life and on specific environmental impulses who's to say when a man will show gay instincts or when a gay will become more attracted to females. LOL.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#61916 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
gotta go for a few hours
I am going out for dinner.

Will reply to your other points, later.

Shalom. Bye, take care.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#61917 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
So you have observed gay people being successfully treated?
That is not what I said but now that you have raised the matter the observation is being made that it is not easy to treat mental illness.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#61918 Nov 4, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But secularism is not a religion, so unless you can posit a replacement religion, then Judaism is their religion, when they identify as so. The ones that reject Judaism are a different story. They are ethnically Jewish only.
The issue as I see it, is that you do not let them speak for themselves. Instead you impose your own doctrine on them, which has an evangelical Christian bent. That doesnt work and frankly, is insulting.
HughBe---Judaism seeks to engraft the SECULAR Jews who have rejected all gods. This is a point that I have debated many times and have sought to expose the FOLLY and DECEPTION of the doctrine.

Frijoles-------But secularism is not a religion, so unless you can posit a replacement religion, then Judaism is their religion, when they identify as so. The ones that reject Judaism are a different story. They are ethnically Jewish only.

HughBe--- Your "secularism is not a religion" shows that you have learnt something. I have made that point many times and that is a matter of historical fact.

Frijoles---The issue as I see it, is that you do not let them speak for themselves. Instead you impose your own doctrine on them, which has an evangelical Christian bent. That doesnt work and frankly, is insulting.

HughBe--- Incorrect, they have SPOKEN for themselves and I have ACCEPTED it as you very well know. I accept that Jews who reject God or gods are NOT religious but they REMAIN Jews. This positions has been restated countless times. So I respect them and their human RIGHTS to believe or not to believe.

Note, I am not the author of the phrase NON-OBSERVANT JEW meaning one who does not observed Judaism. Do you know who did? The concept of non-observant Jew is actually very INSULTING. It suggests that a Jew cannot choose to belong to other religions outside of Judaism. The truth is Judaism is outside of the TRUE religion that was delivered by Moses and the prophets.

HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#61919 Nov 4, 2013
add successfully to the end of post 61917
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#61920 Nov 4, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
Buns?
What're buns?
Buttocks

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Mimbres Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Their view: No clear gain in dispute over Falkl... (Mar '10) Jul 17 Tony 630
News Experience Victorian Christmas tonight at Silve... (Dec '09) Jun 27 AmPieJam UncleSam 5
News Twenty-five car pile-up leaves six people dead Jun '17 Budda Gojkovich 2
News Fiesta Latina heats things upJune 19th, 2017 Jun '17 I love the southwest 1
News 16-year-old student dies (May '07) Jun '17 Cherie griego 10
News Man caught hunting out of season fined $4k Jun '17 Bob 1
News Doctor accused of inappropriate exam behavior t... (Nov '09) Jun '17 Yimminy Rickets 356

Mimbres Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

Mimbres Mortgages