Should schoolteachers & principals ha...
think people think

Dayton, OH

#43 Jan 6, 2013
Mortified wrote:
...and if you talk about it in graphic details you will invite some nutjob here...
Unfortunately, WE DO THIS TO OURSELVES!
Kind of like our news agencies...let's beat this into the ground...and invite the next looney to our front door.
These days "nutjobs" can live virually anywhere, yes, including here in the Boro. A tragedy every bit as large as Columbine, Virginia Tech or Sandy Hook would be to continue to allow our nation's teachers and children to be completely helpless sitting ducks.

If you don't want to listen to me. Fine. Listen to what law enforcement officers around the country are saying...
http://www.trivalleycentral.com/maricopa_moni...
Quote what you want

Franklin, OH

#44 Jan 9, 2013
think people think wrote:
<quoted text>
These days "nutjobs" can live virually anywhere, yes, including here in the Boro. A tragedy every bit as large as Columbine, Virginia Tech or Sandy Hook would be to continue to allow our nation's teachers and children to be completely helpless sitting ducks.
If you don't want to listen to me. Fine. Listen to what law enforcement officers around the country are saying...
http://www.trivalleycentral.com/maricopa_moni...
Law Enforcement is not for guns in school and arming anyone except trained law enforcement officers would be down right dangerous.

Repeating...Law Enforcement is NOT for arming anyone but trained law enforcement officers in schools.

DDN has direct quotes last week from Law Enforcement and the Ohio School Resource Officers Association.
Solve the problem

Franklin, OH

#45 Jan 9, 2013
Working on our mental health system and controlling who has access is a great starting point!
Anonymous

Miamisburg, OH

#46 Jan 10, 2013
Doing a root cause analysis, the answer is NOT putting more guns inside our schools (reactive), but in strengthening preventative measures based on the original problems (proactive). The guns used in the Columbine shootings were originally purchased at a gun show where background checks are not required. The Sandy Hook shooter obtained his guns from his mother’s arsenal of weapons. He had known mental health issues, yet his mother took him to rifle ranges as a way to “get closer to her sons.” Her weapons, stockpiled for her protection in case of an economical collapse, did not protect her...they were used to kill her.
In the majority of cases involving youths with guns, the guns were obtained from a relative. Problem solving needs to begin with addressing the root cause: greater incidence of shootings done by youths/young adults ages 17-20; weapons obtained from parents/relatives; no background checks at gun shows; and a lack of available mental health services throughout our country.
David Hemenway, a professor of public health at Harvard University who has studied gun violence, said that teachers with guns would not prevent violence in schools.
"We know that where there's more guns, there's more deaths," Hemenway said. "The evidence is overwhelming."
And...
The report, a synthesis of prior research and analysis conducted by researchers with the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, includes the following key findings:
Easy access to firearms with large-capacity magazines facilitates higher casualties in mass
shootings.“Right-to-carry” gun laws do not reduce violent crime. Prohibiting high-risk groups from having guns–criminals, perpetrators of domestic violence, youths under age 21, substance abusers, and those with severe mental illnesses–and closing loopholes that enable them to have guns are integral and politically feasible steps to reduce gun violence.
http://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-ins...
Source of Firearms in Youth Suicides
Among the most tragic suicides are those by young people. Too often youths use their parents’ guns. An NVISS study of firearm suicides among youths ages 17 and under occurring over a two-year period in four states and two counties found that 82% used a firearm belonging to a family member, usually a parent. When storage status was noted, about two-thirds of the firearms had been stored unlocked. Among the remaining cases in which the firearms had been locked, the youth knew the combination or where the key was kept or broke into the cabinet.
Parents may believe that their guns are adequately “hidden” or that their kids would never use them in a suicide attempt. But studies show parents sometimes underestimate their children’s experience handling guns at home. In a study by Baxley and Miller, among gun-owning parents who reported that their children had never handled their firearms at home, 22% of the children, questioned separately, said that they had.
Safe storage makes a difference.
While the risk of youth suicide is lowest in families with no firearms at home, among gun-owning families, youths living in homes in which all firearms are stored unloaded and locked are at lower risk for suicide than those living in homes in which firearms are stored less securely (Grossman 2005).
Read the Consensus Statement on Youth Suicide by Firearms, developed by a multi-disciplinary consortium of experts in 1996.(summary)(full document)
__________
Baxley F, Miller M. Parental misperceptions about children and firearms. Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine. 2006;160(5):542-7.
Grossman DC, Mueller BA, Riedy C, et al. Gun storage practices and risk of youth suicide and unintentional firearm injuries. JAMA. 2005;293(6):707-14.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/mean...
Anonymous

Miamisburg, OH

#47 Jan 10, 2013
it could happen here wrote:
<quoted text>
Answering your concerns in reverse order.
1) Especially in cases where attacks are pre-planned, any person wearing a security or police uniform is surely target numero uno.
2) Yeah sure there are safe ways to turn a school into a fortress. Stage police, K9 gun-snifing dogs and metal detectors at every entrance. Lots of luck with the funding in light of "the cliff".
3) Oh, please! Use some of the common sense you were born with! Who said JUST ONE faculty member per school building would obtain a conceal and carry license? Who said JUST ONE undisclosed faculty member per school building would be required wear their concealed weapon on school grounds?
4) Anyone could pick through the media archives and find plenty of idiots. Conceal and carry isn't inherently wrong just because you remember a news episode of a lunatic who went on some kind of rampage abusing his C&C. The fact of the matter is by far the majority of people who go through the rigors of obtaining conceal and carry licensing gain a tremendous amount of respect for the weapon they will wear under their belt.
5) As they are currently for general hiring background checks, area law enforcement would have to be intimately involved with district administrators to extensively evaluate potential candidates for qualities and issues including their family background.
6) Springboro's schoolchildren and faculty would quickly learn they could breathe a collective sigh of relief once they came to terms with the knowledge that they have a few people IN their classrooms...IN their hallways...just in case their lives are ever placed in jeopardy.
"Conceal and carry" means no one but the principals, the superintendant and the board would be aware of the licensed gun carrier. Their identities would never be revealed. In theory C&C holders could be any "interior" faculty member including front desk receptionists, janitors, nurses, coaches, counselors, principals and teachers.
Students of all ages would need to be made acutely aware they're being secretly protected.
Students of all ages would need to have an understanding that the uncompromised secrecy of their protectors is of the utmost importance to their defense and safety.
And teachers with a handgun are going to protect everyone from assailants with 30 round assault weapons how?
Common Sense

Atlanta, GA

#48 Jan 10, 2013
Boroalumni wrote:
<quoted text>
And teachers with a handgun are going to protect everyone from assailants with 30 round assault weapons how?
I think you need a refresher course on the definition of "deterent". If the assailant with his 30 round assault weapon does not know who is carrying, how many are carrying, where they are carrying...the chances they bring their brand of evil into the building is reduced dramatically.

But if they are stupid enough to do evil...the way a well trained volunteer CCW teacher or administrator or janitor, or resource officer, or whomever stops him is two fold.

1) simply carrying and being trained. One well placed shot can stop most evil regardless of how scary you think their assault weapon is.

2) Multiple trained volunteer CCW teachers etc, each with a 7-10 shot handgun are no match for a single 30 round rifle. Ie "strength in numbers"

The thought process here is not that the district is arming teachers but that the teachers, if qualified and trained, and they want to carry should be able too. The thought is if no one (other than authorized personel) know who or when is carrying then the deterrent factor goes up tremendously. The slim slim slim chance that anyone would EVER have to use their training is simply an insurance policy for our kids.

I don't see what the fuss is about. This should not be a distraction if implemented properly.
WoW

Maineville, OH

#49 Jan 10, 2013
Common Sense wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you need a refresher course on the definition of "deterent". If the assailant with his 30 round assault weapon does not know who is carrying, how many are carrying, where they are carrying...the chances they bring their brand of evil into the building is reduced dramatically.
But if they are stupid enough to do evil...the way a well trained volunteer CCW teacher or administrator or janitor, or resource officer, or whomever stops him is two fold.
1) simply carrying and being trained. One well placed shot can stop most evil regardless of how scary you think their assault weapon is.
2) Multiple trained volunteer CCW teachers etc, each with a 7-10 shot handgun are no match for a single 30 round rifle. Ie "strength in numbers"
The thought process here is not that the district is arming teachers but that the teachers, if qualified and trained, and they want to carry should be able too. The thought is if no one (other than authorized personel) know who or when is carrying then the deterrent factor goes up tremendously. The slim slim slim chance that anyone would EVER have to use their training is simply an insurance policy for our kids.
I don't see what the fuss is about. This should not be a distraction if implemented properly.
speaking of insurance, I wonder what the insurance carrier for the school would think of the liability of people with guns in our school buildings...I see 25 mill levy in our future? Why you ask? To cover premiums and payouts if there ever was a discharge...that would be the highest probability over a school involved shooting.
AND the person carrying should also carry a bunch as they will be named right behind Springboro Community City Schools!
Kudos to the pres

Cincinnati, OH

#50 Jan 11, 2013
Quote what you want wrote:
<quoted text>
Law Enforcement is not for guns in school and arming anyone except trained law enforcement officers would be down right dangerous.
Repeating...Law Enforcement is NOT for arming anyone but trained law enforcement officers in schools.
DDN has direct quotes last week from Law Enforcement and the Ohio School Resource Officers Association.
Never thought I would agree with anything that the president of the Springboro Education Association says...but, when you are right, you are right (even if you are the liberal left union president). At last night's school board meeting Scott Money reminded the Springboro School Board representatives that the priority of our Springboro school teachers is to Educate our students and that the SEA does not want our teachers to be burdened with bearing arms in the classrooms.

In my opinion, our Springboro School Board Policy Committee members should accept this decision that the union has already publicly spoken the will of the union masters,
And our policy committee should recognize that the union masters will never concede to any recommendation that is made by our majority conservative elected officials, even at the risk of the best interest of our students, as was witnessed at last night’s school board meeting.
As our schedules allow, we should all plan to attend the public meetings of the board policy committee and listen first-hand to the discussion of policy making on this highly emotionally charged issue of teachers having guns in the classroom;
but hopefully the board policy committee does not waste more of taxpayers money by assembling themselves again in the high school auditorium; then bring a recommendation based on the findings of the policy committee; and then waste our time by presenting this usual parade of union activists bullies, performing another no-class act attacking the character of board members, instead of addressing opinions on the specific issues.
In my opinion, the biggest waste of taxpayers money is the fee paid to our Springboro Board of Education members last night.
The board members came to the meeting with a 4-1 vote putting our kid’s best interest first with our school tax investment dollars. Two of the BOE 4-1 votes were then swayed to the union first status quo tunnel vision by the Boro proud blood-thirsty union activists; and two of our 4-1 majority board members joined union activist board member Don Miller in throwing their fellow board member under the bus. What the heck happened here?
reality check

Dayton, OH

#51 Jan 11, 2013
Kudos to the pres wrote:
<quoted text>
Never thought I would agree with anything that the president of the Springboro Education Association says...but, when you are right, you are right (even if you are the liberal left union president). At last night's school board meeting Scott Money reminded the Springboro School Board representatives that the priority of our Springboro school teachers is to Educate our students and that the SEA does not want our teachers to be burdened with bearing arms in the classrooms.
In my opinion, our Springboro School Board Policy Committee members should accept this decision that the union has already publicly spoken the will of the union masters,
And our policy committee should recognize that the union masters will never concede to any recommendation that is made by our majority conservative elected officials, even at the risk of the best interest of our students, as was witnessed at last night’s school board meeting.
As our schedules allow, we should all plan to attend the public meetings of the board policy committee and listen first-hand to the discussion of policy making on this highly emotionally charged issue of teachers having guns in the classroom;
but hopefully the board policy committee does not waste more of taxpayers money by assembling themselves again in the high school auditorium; then bring a recommendation based on the findings of the policy committee; and then waste our time by presenting this usual parade of union activists bullies, performing another no-class act attacking the character of board members, instead of addressing opinions on the specific issues.
In my opinion, the biggest waste of taxpayers money is the fee paid to our Springboro Board of Education members last night.
The board members came to the meeting with a 4-1 vote putting our kid’s best interest first with our school tax investment dollars. Two of the BOE 4-1 votes were then swayed to the union first status quo tunnel vision by the Boro proud blood-thirsty union activists; and two of our 4-1 majority board members joined union activist board member Don Miller in throwing their fellow board member under the bus. What the heck happened here?
Are you SURE our teachers don't want to be burdened with bearing arms in the classroom?
Before you answer that you'd better check with some of these...

Look up teachers at Littleton CO (4/99).
Look up teachers at Conyers GA (5/99).
Look up teachers at Deming NM(11/99).
Look up teachers at Mt. Morris TWP MI (2/00).
Look up teachers at Savannah GA (3/00).
Look up teachers at Lake Worth FL(5/00).
Look up teachers at Baltimore MA (1/01).
Look up teachers in Gary IN (3/01).
Look up teachers at Granite Hills CA (3/01).
Look up teacherS at Caro MI (11/01).
Look up teachers at Red Lion PA (4/03).
Look up teachers at Red Lake MN (3/05).
Look up teachers at Jacksboro TN (8/05).
Look up teachers at Essex VT (9/05).
Look up teachers at Bailey CO (9/06).
Look up teachers at Nickel Mines PA (10/06).
Look up teachers at Tacoma WA (1/07).
Look up teachers at Blacksburg VA (4/07).
Look up teachers at Dover DE (9/07).
Look up teachers at Cleveland OH (10/07).
Look up teachers at Baton Rouge LA (2/08).
Look up teachers at Menphis TN (2/08).
Look up teachers at Oxnard CA (2/08).
Look up teachers at DeKalb IL (2/08).
Look up teachers at Ft. Lauderdale FL (11/08).
Look up teachers at Madison AL (2/10).
Look up teachers at Huntsville AL (2/10).
Look up teachers at Omaha NE (1/11).
Look up teachers at Houston TX (1/11).
Look up teachers at San Jose CA (5/11).
Look up teachers at Walpole NH (2/12).
Look up teachers at Chardon OH (2/12).
Look up teachers at Jacksonville FL (3/12).
Look up teachers at Newtown CT (12/12).
Look up teachers at Kern Co CA (1/13)
stop making stuff up

Dayton, OH

#52 Jan 11, 2013
Quote what you want wrote:
<quoted text>
Law Enforcement is not for guns in school and arming anyone except trained law enforcement officers would be down right dangerous.
Repeating...Law Enforcement is NOT for arming anyone but trained law enforcement officers in schools.
DDN has direct quotes last week from Law Enforcement and the Ohio School Resource Officers Association.
Oh, is that so?
Well, then O.S.R.O.A. and "Law Enforcement" should both be made aware of a concealed carry precedent determined earlier this week in the NW corner of Ohio.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8724

MONTPELIER, OHIO 1/9/13 SCHOOL BOARD DECISION: STAFF WILL BE ARMED

The district's board of education voted Wednesday to adopt a policy allowing certain individuals to carry concealed firearms on the premises.

The decision came in the wake of December's shooting attack at an elementary school in Sandy Hook, Conn. Dr. Jamison Grime, superintendent, said the individuals will be members of the staff, not hired guards. He said they will not be identified, presumably for security purposes, and they will not carry the weapons until they have received concealed carry training.

Grime did not immediately offer more details on the decision, which was made following an executive session at the end of the board's regular meeting.

While it is not the first school in Ohio to allow certain members of its staff to go armed, the Montpelier Board of Education may be the first to announce the decision publicly.
stop making stuff up

Dayton, OH

#53 Jan 11, 2013
Quote what you want wrote:
<quoted text>
Law Enforcement is not for guns in school and arming anyone except trained law enforcement officers would be down right dangerous.
Repeating...Law Enforcement is NOT for arming anyone but trained law enforcement officers in schools.
DDN has direct quotes last week from Law Enforcement and the Ohio School Resource Officers Association.
Only in a parallel universe could your information be accurate.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/scho...

from the text...
"Butler County Ohio Sheriff Richard K. Jones said this week (12/22/12) that not only should more police be in schools, but that teachers should be trained to carry guns, too".
Kudos to the pres

Cincinnati, OH

#55 Jan 12, 2013
At the January 10 board meeting the SEA president spoke regarding the agenda item of guns in the school and the board policy committee beginning a study of our local school.

As stated in my earlier post, Mr. Maney on behalf of the SEA, stated opposition to approval of teachers with guns...
Since Mr. Maney's statement to the board, I heard the school superintendent Mr. Petrey on TV news state his opposition as well.

Regardless of the opinions of others, this is a local issue for the school staff and the school board to discuss in public meetings with parents, students, and community members.
Twp resident

Dayton, OH

#56 Jan 13, 2013
Kudos to the pres wrote:
At the January 10 board meeting the SEA president spoke regarding the agenda item of guns in the school and the board policy committee beginning a study of our local school.
As stated in my earlier post, Mr. Maney on behalf of the SEA, stated opposition to approval of teachers with guns...
Since Mr. Maney's statement to the board, I heard the school superintendent Mr. Petrey on TV news state his opposition as well.
Regardless of the opinions of others, this is a local issue for the school staff and the school board to discuss in public meetings with parents, students, and community members.
Yes of course. Each school district has to take into consideration many local factors. However, it's customary in our society that in any important decision-making process to first examine both regional and national precedents.

To help him with leveraging during his various negotiation processes, doesn't Scott Maney president of Springboro Education Association utilize key precedents established by leadership within the national teachers union, the National Education Association?
Student 4 Concealed Carry

Dayton, OH

#57 Jan 14, 2013
ARGUMENT....Police officers typically spend four to five months in training; whereas, concealed handgun license holders usually spend one day or less.

http://concealedcampus.org/common-arguments/#...

DISCUSSION....Police officers do not spend four to five months learning to carry concealed handguns for self-defense; they spend four to five months learning to be police officers. Concealed handgun license holders are not police officers; therefore, they have no need of most of the training received by police officers. Concealed handgun license holders don’t need to know how to drive police cars at high speeds or how to kick down doors or how to conduct traffic stops or how to make arrests or how to use handcuffs. And concealed handgun license holders definitely don’t need to spend weeks memorizing radio codes and traffic laws.

“Contrary to what some opponents of concealed carry might claim, concealed handgun license holders don’t need extensive tactical training because they are not charged with protecting the public—It’s not their job to act like amateur, one-man SWAT teams. All a concealed handgun license holder needs to know is how to use his or her concealed handgun to stop an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, and that type of training CAN be accomplished in a few hours.”

NOTE: In some states, such as Texas, the shooting test for a concealed handgun license differs very little from the annual re-qualification test for police officers.
Twp resident

Dayton, OH

#58 Jan 14, 2013
Twp resident wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes of course. Each school district has to take into consideration many local factors. However, it's customary in our society that in any important decision-making process to first examine both regional and national precedents.

To help him with leveraging during his various negotiation processes, doesn't Scott Maney president of Springboro Education Association utilize key precedents established by leadership within the national teachers union, the National Education Association?
....and your rebuttal is......?
Common Sense

Atlanta, GA

#59 Jan 15, 2013
WoW wrote:
<quoted text>
speaking of insurance, I wonder what the insurance carrier for the school would think of the liability of people with guns in our school buildings...I see 25 mill levy in our future? Why you ask? To cover premiums and payouts if there ever was a discharge...that would be the highest probability over a school involved shooting.
AND the person carrying should also carry a bunch as they will be named right behind Springboro Community City Schools!
Explain to me again why there would be a high probability of an accidental discharge?

Ohhhh, yea...I remember now...all those accidental discharges that happen at gun shows, police stations, banks, LCI & WCCI any all the other places guns are prevelant and/or used for as a deterrent and protection. Yep...Springboro Shooters Supply on Main St (YIKES! a few mere yards from a school) has one...what?....about 2-3 times a month? Officer Don's gun goes off in the schools at least 3-4 times a year right? lol.

What sensible solution do you offer to reasonably decrease the odds of a Sandy Hook from occuring in our district?
Twp resident

Dayton, OH

#60 Jan 16, 2013
Common Sense wrote:
<quoted text>
Explain to me again why there would be a high probability of an accidental discharge?
Ohhhh, yea...I remember now...all those accidental discharges that happen at gun shows, police stations, banks, LCI & WCCI any all the other places guns are prevelant and/or used for as a deterrent and protection. Yep...Springboro Shooters Supply on Main St (YIKES! a few mere yards from a school) has one...what?....about 2-3 times a month? Officer Don's gun goes off in the schools at least 3-4 times a year right? lol.
What sensible solution do you offer to reasonably decrease the odds of a Sandy Hook from occuring in our district?
Common Sense, why is it that certain others on these forums are so quick to bash the idea of licensed staff concealed carry in America's schools?
Why do so many want to jump to such a rapid and false conclusion that hiring resource officers represents every school district's holy grail of protection?
a legacy for Liberals

Dayton, OH

#61 Jan 17, 2013
reality check wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you SURE our teachers don't want to be burdened with bearing arms in the classroom?
Before you answer that you'd better check with some of these...
Look up teachers at Littleton CO (4/99).
Look up teachers at Conyers GA (5/99).
Look up teachers at Deming NM(11/99).
Look up teachers at Mt. Morris TWP MI (2/00).
Look up teachers at Savannah GA (3/00).
Look up teachers at Lake Worth FL(5/00).
Look up teachers at Baltimore MA (1/01).
Look up teachers in Gary IN (3/01).
Look up teachers at Granite Hills CA (3/01).
Look up teacherS at Caro MI (11/01).
Look up teachers at Red Lion PA (4/03).
Look up teachers at Red Lake MN (3/05).
Look up teachers at Jacksboro TN (8/05).
Look up teachers at Essex VT (9/05).
Look up teachers at Bailey CO (9/06).
Look up teachers at Nickel Mines PA (10/06).
Look up teachers at Tacoma WA (1/07).
Look up teachers at Blacksburg VA (4/07).
Look up teachers at Dover DE (9/07).
Look up teachers at Cleveland OH (10/07).
Look up teachers at Baton Rouge LA (2/08).
Look up teachers at Menphis TN (2/08).
Look up teachers at Oxnard CA (2/08).
Look up teachers at DeKalb IL (2/08).
Look up teachers at Ft. Lauderdale FL (11/08).
Look up teachers at Madison AL (2/10).
Look up teachers at Huntsville AL (2/10).
Look up teachers at Omaha NE (1/11).
Look up teachers at Houston TX (1/11).
Look up teachers at San Jose CA (5/11).
Look up teachers at Walpole NH (2/12).
Look up teachers at Chardon OH (2/12).
Look up teachers at Jacksonville FL (3/12).
Look up teachers at Newtown CT (12/12).
Look up teachers at Kern Co CA (1/13)
367 victims have died in "gun free" zones since the passage of
the 1996 Gun Free School Zones Act.
I would love it

Dayton, OH

#62 Jan 18, 2013
I think it is odd that nobody wants guns at the school but there was an armed police officer at the board meeting the other night. Looks like we want to protect our adults more than our kids. Or did he just want to be on TV?
17 percent chance

Dayton, OH

#63 Jan 18, 2013
I would love it wrote:
I think it is odd that nobody wants guns at the school but there was an armed police officer at the board meeting the other night. Looks like we want to protect our adults more than our kids. Or did he just want to be on TV?
Don Miller is very well aware Springboro schools already employs one (1) armed police officer. However I'm not sure Miller gets the big picture. If a person with a gun were to breach the security of a Springboro school, our current armed police officer statistically has less than a 17 percent chance of being in that particular school. In order to bolster security efforts for the occupants within ALL SIX Springboro buildings, pure and simple common sense dictates that this current 17% chance be made 100% by adding more resource officers, possibly complemented by board-approved concealed carry staff.

It's the SEA leadership that's putting a lot of pressure on Miller to fight the addition of more guns in schools. For the sake of our childrens safety Don Miller needs to be thinking about the prioritization of their defense in the event of the unthinkable. Miller does not need to be playing union games.

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