Ohio Senate debates teacher merit pay...

Ohio Senate debates teacher merit pay | The Columbus Dispatch

There are 571 comments on the Columbus Dispatch story from Jun 3, 2011, titled Ohio Senate debates teacher merit pay | The Columbus Dispatch. In it, Columbus Dispatch reports that:

Senate President Tom Niehaus, R-New Richmond, worries about interfering with new teacher-evaluation systems in school districts participating in the federal Race to the Top program.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Columbus Dispatch.

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DRU

Marion, OH

#1 Jun 3, 2011
As long as we pass a merit pay system for teachers based on students' test scores, let's be fair and pay dentists by the number of cavities their patients have. Doctors should be paid by what their patients weigh. Police officers should be paid based on the number of crimes in town. Oh, and we should pay politicians by their approval rating.

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Here we go again

Clyde, OH

#2 Jun 3, 2011
DRU
Don't forget to garnish the garnish the government hand out to parents that do not feed their kids before school, make them go to bed on time, bring supplies to school, and do their homework. so that those teachers can do their jobs.
Here we go again

Clyde, OH

#3 Jun 3, 2011
When did we start making laws and forming committees to oversee teacher performance in state budgets? Aren't budgets part of finance? Legislators should write laws, and the ODE should oversee the educators. Confusion Kasick and congressmen. write the state budget. This is why school budgets are a mess.
Old Timer

AOL

#4 Jun 3, 2011
Years ago, we worked from a state minimum pay schedule for teachers. It was indexed over an 11 year period, to allow us incremental raises based on bachelors, bachelors +30, and masters degree levels. If we were "falling behind", the legislature would change the schedule. Collective bargaining ended that.

Maybe we should again have a statewide salary schedule for the professional educator, and then have an additional merit based performance bonus based on children's academic growth levels base on their abilitites. This would place everyone on the same "playing field" since it focuses on the amount learned by a child. This would be very difficult to implement, but it would be fair to the teachers, especially those in urban and rural areas.
Not Rich

Chicago, IL

#6 Jun 3, 2011
Here we go again wrote:
When did we start making laws and forming committees to oversee teacher performance in state budgets? Aren't budgets part of finance? Legislators should write laws, and the ODE should oversee the educators. Confusion Kasick and congressmen. write the state budget. This is why school budgets are a mess.
Don't forget they spent over a year studying to find a way to implement merit pay and they still can't come up with an idea.
Reason

Columbus, OH

#7 Jun 3, 2011
Old timer, how would teachers that teach 3 or 4 subjects receive merit pay? Or how would teachers not in the classroom or in a non-tested area be paid?
bullpucky

Jackson, OH

#8 Jun 3, 2011
Oh! I see! Now the legislators are going to assure that every child enters school with the readiness skills to learn, that they are well-fed, that they don't bring the "baggage" from home with them on any given day. That they are born to parents who truly care whether they even exist! These "guys" are now miracle workers! Hallelujah! Let's get real....please.
Butch

West Liberty, KY

#9 Jun 3, 2011
To be sure, the compensation scheme is designed to lower teacher salaries. To be sure, you get what you pay for.
Moving to Texas

United States

#10 Jun 3, 2011
Wow, it's unbelievable how afraid these union idiots are of a system which evaluates them based on performance. They just have no clue of how the real world works. The real scary thing is they are probably teaching our children these insane believes!

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Kennesaw71

Melrose, FL

#11 Jun 3, 2011
DRU wrote:
As long as we pass a merit pay system for teachers based on students' test scores, let's be fair and pay dentists by the number of cavities their patients have. Doctors should be paid by what their patients weigh. Police officers should be paid based on the number of crimes in town. Oh, and we should pay politicians by their approval rating.
Teachers merit pay seems to be working pretty good here in Georgia. If you really must send your kid to a govt school anything besides merit pay is really unthinkable.
Reason

Columbus, OH

#12 Jun 3, 2011
Moving to Texas: Can you tell me how you would pay me if I was a teacher who did not teach a tested subject? If I taught foreign language or grades 9,11,or 12, how should I be paid?
XXX

Kenton, OH

#13 Jun 3, 2011
Kennesaw

Could you post a link to their way of doing merit pay. I would love to see one that is thought out and working.

Thank you for your time.
Jon Kelpton

Cincinnati, OH

#14 Jun 3, 2011
I just read a quote from Kasich complaining the state of Ohio spends more money on school administration than most states. So, if the districts roll out merit pay, how will 4 principals in a high school of 120+ educators find the time to evaluate the teachers?
Folks, if the state moves to merit pay, IT WILL require more administration if done properly. Guaranteed.
MAD MIKE

Dublin, OH

#15 Jun 3, 2011
Moving to Texas wrote:
Wow, it's unbelievable how afraid these union idiots are of a system which evaluates them based on performance. They just have no clue of how the real world works. The real scary thing is they are probably teaching our children these insane believes!
You will find that the majority of educators are not adverse to the idea of being paid based on their performance. They just want to know how that performance is going to be "measured." So someone please explain to them just how each of the following professionals will be evaluated and rewarded based on student performance:

1. Preschool Teacher
2. Kindergarten Teacher
3. Elementary Teacher grades 1-3
4. Elementary Teacher grades 4 and 5
5. Elementary Music Teacher (K-8)
6. Elementary Art Teacher (K-8)
7. Elementary Phys. Ed. Teacher (K-8)
8. Middle School Math Teacher
9. Middle School Science Teacher
10. Middle School Language Arts Teacher
11. Middle School Social Studies Teacher
12. In School Suspension Teacher
13. K-8 Special Education Teacher
14. Instructional Aide or Assistant
15. Intervention Tutor
16. High School Math Teacher
17. High School English Teacher
18. High School Social Studies Teacher
19. High School Foreign Language Teacher
20. High School Art Teacher
21. High School Phys Ed/Health Teacher
22. High School Music Teacher
23. High School Drama Teacher
24. High School Special Ed Teacher
25. High School Vocational Teacher
26. High School Internship Coordinator
27. School Counselor
28. School Psychologist
29. School Nurse
30. Special Education Support Tutor
31. Transition Coordinator
32. Occupational Therapist
33. Physical Therapist
34. English as a Second Language Teachers
35. Other Specialist Positions (Entry Year Teacher Supervisors, etc.)
36. The "other" folks that I'm sure I left off the list unintentionally

Someone please tell me how you are going to "measure" the performance of these individuals based on some idea of student performance while adequately controlling for factors that are beyond their control.

If someone has a plan that is fair, I think you will the vast majority of educators willing to give it a whirl. They don't want to work across the hall from people working half as hard and just skating by any more than taxpayers want to have to pay for those folks.
Moving to Texas

United States

#16 Jun 3, 2011
Reason wrote:
Moving to Texas: Can you tell me how you would pay me if I was a teacher who did not teach a tested subject? If I taught foreign language or grades 9,11,or 12, how should I be paid?
Please review any evaluation system used in the private sector. These systems are used by human resource dept. all over the world. I find it difficult to believe that your students never take a test, or are evaluated on what level they have attained. Try reviewing typical evaluation forms with an open mind and see how many of the questions would apply to your job, or any job description.
Moving to Texas

United States

#17 Jun 3, 2011
XXX wrote:
Kennesaw
Could you post a link to their way of doing merit pay. I would love to see one that is thought out and working.
Thank you for your time.
Somehow I believe you have the capabilities to google "employee evaluation forms" or something to that effect and learn how the private sector evaluates employees. That is if you have an open mind and not totally brain-washed by the unions.
Gina

North Royalton, OH

#18 Jun 3, 2011
DRU wrote:
As long as we pass a merit pay system for teachers based on students' test scores, let's be fair and pay dentists by the number of cavities their patients have. Doctors should be paid by what their patients weigh. Police officers should be paid based on the number of crimes in town. Oh, and we should pay politicians by their approval rating.
Poor analogy. You're talking about judging based on the raw materials rather than judging based on MOTIVATED EFFORT with the raw materials given. Surely even you can admit there are some teachers, police officers or doctors who are more motivated and successful than others.

We can evaluate teachers fairly if we account for extenuating variables. If we can't, then let's stop judging when police use excessive violence because they didn't choose the volatility of the suspect. Let's not evaluate how good a surgeon is because he can't control how sick his patients are. Let's not judge how accurate accountants are because they can't control the company's bottom line. We evaluate them based on what they DO with what they are given. It should be the same with teachers. Of course, we consider extenuating circumstances (ESL, poverty or learning disabled.) Kids aren't blank canvases.

Finally, the argument doesn't work both ways. If parents and poverty are the sole determinants of a student's success, then a teacher's influence is minimal at best. Why then do unions argue that we must increase teacher pay to attract the best teachers? Do teachers impact a student's success or not? And if they do, are all teachers interchangeable automatons or professionals with varying levels of knowledge and skill?
NoLongerVotingRe publican

Little Valley, NY

#19 Jun 3, 2011
Not Rich wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't forget they spent over a year studying to find a way to implement merit pay and they still can't come up with an idea.
That's because there is nothing wrong with the way teachers in a public school district is paid. Let the districts pay their own teachers. If a teacher wants more, they can go somewhere else. School board members know how teachers should be evaluated and union teachers are fired if they are not doing their job. I have seen it happen, not often, but it happens. Having a union ensures that evaluations are done fairly. Nepotism would run rampant without union involvement. A prime example of this is how Kasich rewards his cronies.
Just look at how Kasich is running Ohio. If you're his friend and pay for his support, you get a high paying job. White Hat Management pays a lot to Kasich and Kasich has given his blessing to charter schools that are failing. I don't know why the charters schools are mostly failing. Maybe because the teacher pay is so low there is not much incentive. Maybe it is because there are 45 kids in a classroom like at the VLT Academy in Cincinnati. Maybe its because parents don't send their kids to school prepared to learn. Probably a combination of many problem factors.
Kasich needs to focus on fixing problems not trying to fix something that is not broken. There is no reason to do away with collective bargaining. When collective bargaining is gone, so will freedom of speech and the press.
watcher

Columbus, OH

#20 Jun 3, 2011
Of course the union does not want their pay based on performance. They want to get paid our tax dollars, guaranteed. If they are lousy they get paid, if they are great they get paid. So, what you have is your good people perform much lower and your lousy people try to perform at the lowest acceptable level and keep their job.
And we wonder why this country and our kids are in the shape they are in?
If the private sector does not perform to consumers expectations, they lose money, and will eventually go out of business, if they dont get better.
luv2teach

Columbus, OH

#21 Jun 3, 2011
Moving to Texas wrote:
Wow, it's unbelievable how afraid these union idiots are of a system which evaluates them based on performance. They just have no clue of how the real world works. The real scary thing is they are probably teaching our children these insane believes!
I don't know how "real" your world is... you obviously have no idea what it takes to do a teacher's job or what it is like to be in a REAL educator's world. If you did, you wouldn't be making these comments in the first place.

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