Local Episcopal advisory board backs same-sex blessings

Jul 6, 2014 Full story: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal 16

Today's Paper, also known as the e-Edition, is an online replica of the printed newspaper.

Full Story
Listen to the Word

Kingman, AZ

#1 Jul 6, 2014
The Milwaukee "local Episcopal advisory board" may back same-sex blessings. God's Word doesn't. Since the bishop is befuddled on the issue, maybe he should resign and let a man of God take over or, if he is not willing to do that, he might want to read the Bible, specifically all the passages which speak about God's will for marriage. Maybe the Spirit will enlighten him - unless the word of the advisory board is more important to him than is the Word of God.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#2 Jul 6, 2014
Listen to the Word wrote:
The Milwaukee "local Episcopal advisory board" may back same-sex blessings. God's Word doesn't. Since the bishop is befuddled on the issue, maybe he should resign and let a man of God take over or, if he is not willing to do that, he might want to read the Bible, specifically all the passages which speak about God's will for marriage. Maybe the Spirit will enlighten him - unless the word of the advisory board is more important to him than is the Word of God.
Read the article.

God's Word most certainly does provide support for same-sex marriage blessings.

The bishop is not befuddled at all.

The Spirit has already enlightened him.

Rev. Ken
George

Jacksonville, FL

#3 Jul 9, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Read the article.
God's Word most certainly does provide support for same-sex marriage blessings.
The bishop is not befuddled at all.
The Spirit has already enlightened him.
Rev. Ken
Where does God's Word provide support for same-sex marriage blessing?
Isn't the special enlightenment you claim for the bishop (and yourself no doubt) a form of gnosticism -- the secret knowledge imparted to those hand-picked elites?

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#4 Jul 10, 2014
George wrote:
<quoted text>
Where does God's Word provide support for same-sex marriage blessing?
Isn't the special enlightenment you claim for the bishop (and yourself no doubt) a form of gnosticism -- the secret knowledge imparted to those hand-picked elites?
LOL!!!.... "Secret knowledge" Gnosticism?????

No. Unless that is what you call plain old common sense.

These people are plain old everyday Human Beings who deserve every element of Church Life that everybody else gets. Instead, we have concocted a sin-based "Catch-22" for them, effectively locking them out of the possibility of living together in the fulfilling, trusting, loving, exclusive and intimate relationship that we sanctify as Marriage for everyone else.

It is institutionalized hypocrisy borne out of a misunderstanding of human nature and preserved in the name of orthodox Tradition. It has to go the way of the dinosaurs.

The sooner, the better. And, it is best started right here in the U.S.A under the umbrella of our Constitutional Republic.

Rev. Ken
Dan

United States

#5 Jul 10, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!.... "Secret knowledge" Gnosticism?????
No. Unless that is what you call plain old common sense.
These people are plain old everyday Human Beings who deserve every element of Church Life that everybody else gets. Instead, we have concocted a sin-based "Catch-22" for them, effectively locking them out of the possibility of living together in the fulfilling, trusting, loving, exclusive and intimate relationship that we sanctify as Marriage for everyone else.
It is institutionalized hypocrisy borne out of a misunderstanding of human nature and preserved in the name of orthodox Tradition. It has to go the way of the dinosaurs.
The sooner, the better. And, it is best started right here in the U.S.A under the umbrella of our Constitutional Republic.
Rev. Ken
Um, while an interesting read, your post here is a diatribe against the historical beliefs of the Episcopal Church, not what George asked for-which was scriptural support for same-sex marriage.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#6 Jul 10, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Um, while an interesting read, your post here is a diatribe against the historical beliefs of the Episcopal Church, not what George asked for-which was scriptural support for same-sex marriage.
LOL!!!.... You mean that The Episcopal Church has always been right in the past and now that it is recognizing and correcting certain forms of its own traditionalized hypocritical misunderstandings, it is to be regarded as unqualified to do so?

You sound like a Roman Catholic! They've NEVER been wrong about anything, past, present or future!

"I am the Way, the truth and the life."

Is this statement, a quote from Jesus Christ, scriptural support for same-sex marriage?
Dan

United States

#7 Jul 10, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!.... You mean that The Episcopal Church has always been right in the past and now that it is recognizing and correcting certain forms of its own traditionalized hypocritical misunderstandings, it is to be regarded as unqualified to do so?
You sound like a Roman Catholic! They've NEVER been wrong about anything, past, present or future!
"I am the Way, the truth and the life."
Is this statement, a quote from Jesus Christ, scriptural support for same-sex marriage?
I'm Catholic, so I never thought The Episcopal Church was "right" in that sense. It's immaterial to me and I'm sure to you.

I was just noting that your response was not in context to the inquiry made by George.

If you'll allow, I'd say that John 14:6 "Jesus said to him,的 am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." does NOT represent an endorsement of marriage by Christ.
George

Jacksonville, FL

#8 Jul 11, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!.... "Secret knowledge" Gnosticism?????
No. Unless that is what you call plain old common sense.
These people are plain old everyday Human Beings who deserve every element of Church Life that everybody else gets. Instead, we have concocted a sin-based "Catch-22" for them, effectively locking them out of the possibility of living together in the fulfilling, trusting, loving, exclusive and intimate relationship that we sanctify as Marriage for everyone else.
It is institutionalized hypocrisy borne out of a misunderstanding of human nature and preserved in the name of orthodox Tradition. It has to go the way of the dinosaurs.
The sooner, the better. And, it is best started right here in the U.S.A under the umbrella of our Constitutional Republic.
Rev. Ken
So - in other words: The Spirit has revealed this new knowledge to the Bishop and those of you who think the same. Did the Spirit lie to the authors of the Bible or did they just make up the proscriptions on same-sex relations? How much is simply made up and not God's revelation - just the parts you don't like or all of it? Is the Spirit saying something different to you than to the rest of Christendom or is everyone other than the enlightened few simply unable to comprehend what the Spirit is saying?
Enjoy the God you have made in your image. I'll stick to the One who made me in His!

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#9 Jul 12, 2014
George wrote:
<quoted text>
So - in other words: The Spirit has revealed this new knowledge to the Bishop and those of you who think the same. Did the Spirit lie to the authors of the Bible or did they just make up the proscriptions on same-sex relations? How much is simply made up and not God's revelation - just the parts you don't like or all of it? Is the Spirit saying something different to you than to the rest of Christendom or is everyone other than the enlightened few simply unable to comprehend what the Spirit is saying?
Enjoy the God you have made in your image. I'll stick to the One who made me in His!
Well, George,...... that's the crux of it, isn't it?

The only problem with the previous view of homosexuality is that it lacked the knowledge that we have gained about human sexuality that includes genetic and psychological facts.

So, we stick to scripture because it is easier to define ourselves in terms of an iconic image rather than to include the outcasts in the group we call ourselves.

We make a graven image out of what we believe that we are supposed to be and we use the Bible to prove it.

Funny, though. For a long time we wouldn't dare admit that the Bible contained allegory and myth and that it actually had a truly Human element to its character - an element of imperfection. Yet, everyone of us who has actually read it knows that error, misconception, mistranslation, superstition, taboo and moralizing hypocrisies are part of the Bible's truth.

We know this instinctively and intuitively. We know this factually.

And then we say to ourselves, "Well,.... when Jesus said that he is the truth, he really didn't mean it and he certainly didn't mean THIS."

And then we celebrate the crucifixion of Christ.
Bella Oxmyx

Arlington, TX

#10 Jul 13, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Um, while an interesting read, your post here is a diatribe against the historical beliefs of the Episcopal Church, not what George asked for-which was scriptural support for same-sex marriage.
He can't provide it. All he can do is give a diatribe.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#11 Jul 13, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm Catholic, so I never thought The Episcopal Church was "right" in that sense. It's immaterial to me and I'm sure to you.
I was just noting that your response was not in context to the inquiry made by George.
If you'll allow, I'd say that John 14:6 "Jesus said to him,的 am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." does NOT represent an endorsement of marriage by Christ.
No. It is not immaterial to either you or me.

Dan,

You and Bella and others think the question you have posed or that George has posed is unanswerable.

In other words, "How does anyone prove that there is such a thing, much less prove that someone else might actually be guided by the Holy Spirit.

And then to claim that one IS guided by the Holy Spirit, especially when one's views are somehow different from or even opposing to our own,..... Well, now,.....

That is a problem.

But, that is your problem. Not mine.

*****

You provided the quote, "I am the Way,... and of course I'll allow. It is fundamental to our subjective question.

Do you believe it or not? I don't even care if you don't answer on this thread. I just ask you to ask yourself. Because, if Jesus IS the truth, then in believing what Jesus says about himself requires you to always search for the truth, if, as one of His disciples, you are actually searching for an honest encounter with Him. The truth is relevant to the question about how we regard our fellow Human Beings, especially those who are somehow different from what we may think exists in and as the "Image of God."

No blinders. No dogmatic beliefs that are allowed to go unchallenged. No blind acceptance of scripture and no forging of a "graven" image of the truth. No accession to feckless dependence on the Letter of the Law, especially after Jesus clearly showed that the Spirit of the Law is the origin of Divine Will and not the other way around. The "Letter" has never been more than a snapshot of the present moral understanding. So, are we allowed to learn and evolve in understanding and comprehension? Or are we all just supposed to live a two-dimensional existence inside of an old, faded Polaroid?

Lastly, Just because we are ordinary men and women, we are not excused from constantly working toward a personal state of living in the full recognition and presence of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did. He said, "All these things that I do, so shall you do,..."

The question is answerable. But, I cannot answer it for either one of you. I can only answer it for myself.

Pardon me if you find this offensive. Caiaphas certainly did.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#12 Jul 14, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
No. It is not immaterial to either you or me.
Dan,
You and Bella and others think the question you have posed or that George has posed is unanswerable.
In other words, "How does anyone prove that there is such a thing, much less prove that someone else might actually be guided by the Holy Spirit.
And then to claim that one IS guided by the Holy Spirit, especially when one's views are somehow different from or even opposing to our own,..... Well, now,.....
That is a problem.
But, that is your problem. Not mine.
*****
You provided the quote, "I am the Way,... and of course I'll allow. It is fundamental to our subjective question.
Do you believe it or not? I don't even care if you don't answer on this thread. I just ask you to ask yourself. Because, if Jesus IS the truth, then in believing what Jesus says about himself requires you to always search for the truth, if, as one of His disciples, you are actually searching for an honest encounter with Him. The truth is relevant to the question about how we regard our fellow Human Beings, especially those who are somehow different from what we may think exists in and as the "Image of God."
No blinders. No dogmatic beliefs that are allowed to go unchallenged. No blind acceptance of scripture and no forging of a "graven" image of the truth. No accession to feckless dependence on the Letter of the Law, especially after Jesus clearly showed that the Spirit of the Law is the origin of Divine Will and not the other way around. The "Letter" has never been more than a snapshot of the present moral understanding. So, are we allowed to learn and evolve in understanding and comprehension? Or are we all just supposed to live a two-dimensional existence inside of an old, faded Polaroid?
Lastly, Just because we are ordinary men and women, we are not excused from constantly working toward a personal state of living in the full recognition and presence of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did. He said, "All these things that I do, so shall you do,..."
The question is answerable. But, I cannot answer it for either one of you. I can only answer it for myself.
Pardon me if you find this offensive. Caiaphas certainly did.
Rev. Ken
"You and Bella and others think the question you have posed or that George has posed is unanswerable."

Seemingly "unanswerable" by you. We're a few posts in now and still nothing.

"In other words, "How does anyone prove that there is such a thing, much less prove that someone else might actually be guided by the Holy Spirit."

That's not the question I speaking of. George maybe, but not me.

"You provided the quote, "I am the Way,... and of course I'll allow. It is fundamental to our subjective question."

Thanks for deigning to "allow" me to cite and quote it in full. Especially since you yourself introduced the passage to the thread in Post #6, in an inquiry to me. Work on the short-term memory at least as hard as you do on the theatrics.

"Pardon me if you find this offensive. Caiaphas certainly did."

How breathlessly dramatic, Doesn't supply a response of any kind in service to the questions asked by George.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#13 Jul 14, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
"You and Bella and others think the question you have posed or that George has posed is unanswerable."
Seemingly "unanswerable" by you. We're a few posts in now and still nothing.
"In other words, "How does anyone prove that there is such a thing, much less prove that someone else might actually be guided by the Holy Spirit."
That's not the question I speaking of. George maybe, but not me.
"You provided the quote, "I am the Way,..." and of course I'll allow. It is fundamental to our subjective question."
Thanks for deigning to "allow" me to cite and quote it in full. Especially since you yourself introduced the passage to the thread in Post #6, in an inquiry to me. Work on the short-term memory at least as hard as you do on the theatrics.
"Pardon me if you find this offensive. Caiaphas certainly did."
How breathlessly dramatic, Doesn't supply a response of any kind in service to the questions asked by George.
In post #7 above, this is what you wrote:

' If you'll allow, I'd say that John 14:6 "Jesus said to him,的 am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." does NOT represent an endorsement of marriage by Christ.'

But, it does and you are avoiding acknowledging why it does.

You asked for allowance, so I noted your specific request and now you feign the insult of condescension! LOL!!!!.... so, the condescension was yours in the first place!

George and those who use the Bible for definitive proof, and you and Bella, already know that the Bible has no specific written permission for same-sex marriage. The matter involves the Spirit, not the Letter.

So, when you ask me or challenge me to show where and in what words such specific permission is given, what are you asking? The Hebrews had no approval for same-sex marriage in the Mosaic Law. Jesus was never reported to have spoken about such relationships or how they should be handled.
So, again, why do you ask me to provide chapter and verse that permits it?

On the other hand, I certainly can show where the Bible provides impetus to seek the truth, including Jesus' own commitment to the truth, claiming it as intrinsic to His nature. And, I can clearly show where scripture in both Testaments consistently presents forgiveness and permits in favor of the Spirit versus the Letter.

The proof of whether or not the Holy Spirit sanctions these marriages is exactly what George asked for. It is a subjective reality.

When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees to show proof of divinity, how did He respond? Was His response any guide to how we ourselves should respond when asked for such "proofing?" Is your insistence upon my answering such proofing questions from George somehow different from George's unanswerable questions?

No. It is not.

Caiaphas did find Jesus' answer offensive. The question is the same. The answer is the same.

Do you believe that Jesus "is the way and the truth" or don't you?

Don't let your own short term memory get in the way of answering to yourself.
Dan

United States

#14 Jul 14, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
In post #7 above, this is what you wrote:
' If you'll allow, I'd say that John 14:6 "Jesus said to him,的 am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." does NOT represent an endorsement of marriage by Christ.'
But, it does and you are avoiding acknowledging why it does.
You asked for allowance, so I noted your specific request and now you feign the insult of condescension! LOL!!!!.... so, the condescension was yours in the first place!
George and those who use the Bible for definitive proof, and you and Bella, already know that the Bible has no specific written permission for same-sex marriage. The matter involves the Spirit, not the Letter.
So, when you ask me or challenge me to show where and in what words such specific permission is given, what are you asking? The Hebrews had no approval for same-sex marriage in the Mosaic Law. Jesus was never reported to have spoken about such relationships or how they should be handled.
So, again, why do you ask me to provide chapter and verse that permits it?
On the other hand, I certainly can show where the Bible provides impetus to seek the truth, including Jesus' own commitment to the truth, claiming it as intrinsic to His nature. And, I can clearly show where scripture in both Testaments consistently presents forgiveness and permits in favor of the Spirit versus the Letter.
The proof of whether or not the Holy Spirit sanctions these marriages is exactly what George asked for. It is a subjective reality.
When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees to show proof of divinity, how did He respond? Was His response any guide to how we ourselves should respond when asked for such "proofing?" Is your insistence upon my answering such proofing questions from George somehow different from George's unanswerable questions?
No. It is not.
Caiaphas did find Jesus' answer offensive. The question is the same. The answer is the same.
Do you believe that Jesus "is the way and the truth" or don't you?
Don't let your own short term memory get in the way of answering to yourself.
Yes, I believe that Jesus is "the way and the truth".

Does Jesus affirm everything I may ever do if I believe what He says in John 14:6? If He never spoke of it ("it" being a specific action), and I believe what He says in John 14:6, I can do as I wish without consequence if I feel it to be right for me?
Dan

United States

#15 Jul 14, 2014
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
In post #7 above, this is what you wrote:
' If you'll allow, I'd say that John 14:6 "Jesus said to him,的 am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." does NOT represent an endorsement of marriage by Christ.'
But, it does and you are avoiding acknowledging why it does.
You asked for allowance, so I noted your specific request and now you feign the insult of condescension! LOL!!!!.... so, the condescension was yours in the first place!
George and those who use the Bible for definitive proof, and you and Bella, already know that the Bible has no specific written permission for same-sex marriage. The matter involves the Spirit, not the Letter.
So, when you ask me or challenge me to show where and in what words such specific permission is given, what are you asking? The Hebrews had no approval for same-sex marriage in the Mosaic Law. Jesus was never reported to have spoken about such relationships or how they should be handled.
So, again, why do you ask me to provide chapter and verse that permits it?
On the other hand, I certainly can show where the Bible provides impetus to seek the truth, including Jesus' own commitment to the truth, claiming it as intrinsic to His nature. And, I can clearly show where scripture in both Testaments consistently presents forgiveness and permits in favor of the Spirit versus the Letter.
The proof of whether or not the Holy Spirit sanctions these marriages is exactly what George asked for. It is a subjective reality.
When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees to show proof of divinity, how did He respond? Was His response any guide to how we ourselves should respond when asked for such "proofing?" Is your insistence upon my answering such proofing questions from George somehow different from George's unanswerable questions?
No. It is not.
Caiaphas did find Jesus' answer offensive. The question is the same. The answer is the same.
Do you believe that Jesus "is the way and the truth" or don't you?
Don't let your own short term memory get in the way of answering to yourself.
"George and those who use the Bible for definitive proof, and you and Bella, already know that the Bible has no specific written permission for same-sex marriage. The matter involves the Spirit, not the Letter.
So, when you ask me or challenge me to show where and in what words such specific permission is given, what are you asking? The Hebrews had no approval for same-sex marriage in the Mosaic Law. Jesus was never reported to have spoken about such relationships or how they should be handled.
So, again, why do you ask me to provide chapter and verse that permits it?"

Why ask?

Well, because you, in Post #2, said:

"God's Word most certainly does provide support for same-sex marriage blessings.

The bishop is not befuddled at all."

One side of the street or the other, Ken.

Saying "God's Word most certainly does provide support......." is NOT the same as what you say here, which is:

"My subjective interpretation of scripture tells me that God's Word most certainly does provide support.........."

That's a cop out, especially when you presume to tell us that the Bishop isn't "befuddled" due to his apparent agreement with you. Had he concluded differently than you, I'm quite sure he would have been consigned to the Legion of The "Misguided, Patriarchal, Doctrinaire" -your TEC fellows whom you impugn at every opportunity.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#16 Jul 15, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
"George and those who use the Bible for definitive proof, and you and Bella, already know that the Bible has no specific written permission for same-sex marriage. The matter involves the Spirit, not the Letter.
So, when you ask me or challenge me to show where and in what words such specific permission is given, what are you asking? The Hebrews had no approval for same-sex marriage in the Mosaic Law. Jesus was never reported to have spoken about such relationships or how they should be handled.
So, again, why do you ask me to provide chapter and verse that permits it?"
Why ask?
Well, because you, in Post #2, said:
"God's Word most certainly does provide support for same-sex marriage blessings.
The bishop is not befuddled at all."
One side of the street or the other, Ken.
Saying "God's Word most certainly does provide support......." is NOT the same as what you say here, which is:
"My subjective interpretation of scripture tells me that God's Word most certainly does provide support.........."
That's a cop out, especially when you presume to tell us that the Bishop isn't "befuddled" due to his apparent agreement with you. Had he concluded differently than you, I'm quite sure he would have been consigned to the Legion of The "Misguided, Patriarchal, Doctrinaire" -your TEC fellows whom you impugn at every opportunity.
Oh, Bulloney!

Here is what the Bishop said (clipped from the article):

Miller said last week that he is reviewing the recommendation of his Standing Committee and will respond later this summer. But he reiterated his reservations, saying the blessing falls short of a marriage rite and as such treats same-sex couples inequitably in the eyes of the church.

"My concern about the rite is that it looks like marriage but says it's not," said Miller, who has voiced support for same-sex civil marriages.

"A blessing still keeps gay and lesbian people in a second-tier status," Miller said.

*****

As for scripture, Jesus built His ministry on the basis of the spirit of the Law. Was the Law important, in His opinion?

Yes.

But, He also showed its limitations.

*****

Impugn at every opportunity?

That's a lie.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Menomonee Falls Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Kids Fest in Brookfield- FREE MONKEY JOE'S Mon Brad Etzel 1
Kids Fest in Germantown! Mon Brad Etzel 1
Obama: 'Revving' economy calls for higher wages Mon Batch 37 Pain Is ... 131
nnn Mon Tenant 2
Jesus Christ, the Son of God Mon Bowed 2
Milwaukee Liberians worry about Ebola back home Mon Ebola 3
Woman fatally stabbed near 28th, Hadley Mon Slendy 2
Menomonee Falls Dating
Find my Match

Menomonee Falls Jobs

Menomonee Falls People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

Menomonee Falls News, Events & Info

Click for news, events and info in Menomonee Falls

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]