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Posted in the McKeesport Forum

#42 Feb 4, 2013
The facts wrote:
From the interweb.
Note that yard equipment has a higher DB level than a motorcycle.
*****
The noise chart below lists average decibel levels for everyday sounds around you.
Painful
150 dB = fireworks at 3 feet
140 dB = firearms, jet engine
130 dB = jackhammer
120 dB = jet plane takeoff, siren
Extremely Loud
110 dB = maximum output of some MP3 players, model airplane, chain saw
106 dB = gas lawn mower, snowblower
100 dB = hand drill, pneumatic drill
90 dB = subway, passing motorcycle
Very Loud
80–90 dB = blow-dryer, kitchen blender, food processor
70 dB = busy traffic, vacuum cleaner, alarm clock
Moderate
60 dB = typical conversation, dishwasher, clothes dryer
50 dB = moderate rainfall
40 dB = quiet room
You are correct but you forgot the distance term in the equation! We do not hear the GPA jets taking off. I do not hear my neighbors dishwasher.

Noise intensity or sound pressure is function of the distance from the source and the number of sources.

It obeys the equation of 1/R where R=distance. As distance increases the noise decreases is significant.

Few lawn mower operators have reason to operate more than one lawn mower or pieces of lawn service equipment concurrently.

But, there could be more than one dirt bike or ATVs operating concurrently in the ATV Noisedome and for longer times.

Electricl power measure for consumption in Watt-Hours, dB must be quantified in dB-hours. You will quickly determine that the ATV dB-hours will significantly exceed the dB-hours of all of the above.

I am a physics major drop out.
MTD
#43 Feb 4, 2013
<quoted text>You are correct but you forgot the distance term in the equation! We do not hear the GPA jets taking off. I do not hear my neighbors dishwasher.

Noise intensity or sound pressure is function of the distance from the source and the number of sources.

It obeys the equation of 1/R where R=distance. As distance increases the noise decreases is significant.

Few lawn mower operators have reason to operate more than one lawn mower or pieces of lawn service equipment concurrently.

But, there could be more than one dirt bike or ATVs operating concurrently in the ATV Noisedome and for longer times.

Electricl power measure for consumption in Watt-Hours, dB must be quantified in dB-hours. You will quickly determine that the ATV dB-hours will significantly exceed the dB-hours of all of the above.

I am a physics major drop out.
Who said drop outs don't know anything. Way to tell 'em though, nice!
The facts
#44 Feb 5, 2013
<quoted text>
You are correct but you forgot the distance term in the equation! We do not hear the GPA jets taking off. I do not hear my neighbors dishwasher.
Noise intensity or sound pressure is function of the distance from the source and the number of sources. It obeys the equation of 1/R where R=distance. As distance increases the noise decreases is significant.
ANd you forgot that the dirt bikes and ATVs in question are at LEAST 150 feet away, much much more at most times, and partially blocked by trees, brush and dirt as buffers.

Lawn equipment is normally operated at a much closer distance in a typical neighborhood setting.

So in fact the yard equipment is MUCH MUCH louder than these dirt bikes and ATVs being used down in the woods.

Thanks for clarifying that! Makes my case even better!
<quoted text>
Few lawn mower operators have reason to operate more than one lawn mower or pieces of lawn service equipment concurrently.
But, there could be more than one dirt bike or ATVs operating concurrently in the ATV Noisedome and for longer times.
People do not all cut grass at the same time and day, which is what you overlook here. And some people in Haler Heights have CREWS of yard people working. Two, three or four pieces of equipment running at once for at least an hour or two. Multiply that by the number of homes in a typical plan. It's all of the overlapping instances of yard equipment that makes it a problem.
Slippery slope
#45 Feb 5, 2013
Organ Donor Pool wrote:
Statistics ATV Accidents
The Consumer Product Safety Commission reported that ATVs were responsible for 125,500 injuries in 2003 that required emergency medical treatment. This was the second-consecutive year that a national record had been broken for ATV-related injuries. 2003 also reported the highest number of ATV-related deaths at an estimated 621.
In 2006, serious injuries requiring emergency medical treatment was reported at 146,000, and that number rose to 150,900 in 2007.
Between 2001 and 2007, the number of annual serious injuries treated by emergency medical professionals rose 37 percent.
One-third of all ATV-related fatalities reported and recorded between 1982 and 2002 were riders under the age of 16.
Eighty percent of fatalities caused by ATV accidents are due to injuries to the central nervous system.
From 1999 to 2001, 698 recorded fatalities were attributed to ATV riders under the age of 19.
Helmets have been known to reduce the risk of fatalities in ATV accidents by 42 percent. They have also been known to reduce the possibility of a non-fatal head injury by 64 percent.
Between 1985 and 2002, riders under the age of 16 have accounted for 37 percent of injuries related to ATV accidents.
More than 103,000 ATV riders under the age of 16 were treated for injuries stemming from ATV accidents between 2000 and 2002.
Male ATV riders comprised 77 percent of injuries related to ATV accidents between 1995 and 2003.
Anyone can spout web-researched "facts" and spin them. Drunk drivers and gun related injuries and deaths STILL out rank ATV injuries and deaths. Is it time to ban all drinking, all autombiles and all guns?
Stupid is as stupid does
#46 Feb 5, 2013
MTD wrote:
<quoted text>
ATV's must not burn fossil fuels either? They will ban ATV's way before banning lawn equipment, idiot. You really spent a whole paragraph complaining about people "Beautifying" their property. They are a luxury that people can afford in that neighborhood. Go live in a neighborhood where people don't care about their lawns or how their landscaping looks and I bet you will do alot more complaining than you are now.
Ah, I see the true colors coming out now. Resorting to name calling usually happens when the people doing the name calling realize that they do not have a great argument.
MTD wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe working on their lawns and landscaping is how people have fun. Who are you the fun police? Obviously you are correct with babies crying too loud, You. Next person!
So one person's luxury and "fun" is OK but another person's isn't even when they both make the same noise?

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U R dreaming
#47 Feb 5, 2013
Troublemaker wrote:
<quoted text>
Had he gone through proper legal channels, this could've been headed off.
What legal channels would have resulted in anything but what we have right now?

The same people would be complaining.
MTD
#48 Feb 5, 2013
Stupid is as stupid does wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, I see the true colors coming out now. Resorting to name calling usually happens when the people doing the name calling realize that they do not have a great argument.
<quoted text>
So one person's luxury and "fun" is OK but another person's isn't even when they both make the same noise?
Yeah, true colors. Thats why I love 'ya! There's no argument, you can not compare the two. How do you cut your lawn? I always thought Edward Scissorhands was from Pill Hill.

To each is own, one is just more of an inconvenience to people than the other. I was playing Devil's Advocate.
Spin Doctor Wins
#49 Feb 5, 2013
MTD wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, true colors. Thats why I love 'ya! There's no argument, you can not compare the two. How do you cut your lawn? I always thought Edward Scissorhands was from Pill Hill.
To each is own, one is just more of an inconvenience to people than the other. I was playing Devil's Advocate.
How about a different spin? Almost everyone home owner has power lawn equipment or hires lawn service.

But what percenage of home owners have ATVs and dirt bikes and paint ball weapons?

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Troublemaker
#50 Feb 5, 2013
U R dreaming wrote:
<quoted text>
What legal channels would have resulted in anything but what we have right now?
The same people would be complaining.
Uhhh... Had Jimmy looked into local ordinances, found out the process for getting a variance, KNOCKED ON A FEW NEIGHBORS' DOORS AS A COURTESY... maybe he wouldn't have... you know... bought the land and spent the money on taking the kids to a legal track instead for that quality time?

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third street
#51 Feb 6, 2013
Been at atv tracks. Know folks who converted their wooded lots for atv use without going through proper channels now. Also remember atv's, motor bikes, mountain bikes, Huffy's, around Elrama, Floreffe, in and around McKeesport, back in the 70's. The noise was constant. Folks were always riding around in packs. They drove into and out of the 'allowed' trails by going through private property and tearing it up. They rode at night, Sundays, in the rain, snow, and turned forest land, lawns, grazing areas, into rutted mud pits.

Then came the home and business thefts, cutting down of cash trees to make new trails, vandalism, fires, and verbal threats by riders on nearby properties increasing the same time as land owners then local then state govts. fenced off areas, felled trees or dumped boulders on prime tracks.

Finally, even atv users got fed up with violence, damage, etc by other atv riders that they found other areas to ride. Those that didn't found their atv's confiscated and themselves sued or fined. Having pre-teens getting hurt riding atv's didn't help nor when their parents sued property owners and local govts, who tried to keep them off in the first place.
third street
#52 Feb 6, 2013
If they stay in a fixed area or lot then anyone around them can demand a reasonable mitigation and reduction of noise and use. Installing buffering soil mounds or tall solid fencing around the area might help. Buying out neighboring homes overlooking atv area might help. Most will not spend the money. Did they get insurance? Having everyone sign waivers rarely works once the first person is hurt, especially if they are under 18.
Friends in High Places
#53 Feb 6, 2013
Troublemaker wrote:
<quoted text>
Uhhh... Had Jimmy looked into local ordinances, found out the process for getting a variance, KNOCKED ON A FEW NEIGHBORS' DOORS AS A COURTESY... maybe he wouldn't have... you know... bought the land and spent the money on taking the kids to a legal track instead for that quality time?
Even rural landowners in PA, with much, much larger tracts of land than Jimmies recent acquisition, need to obtain conditional use approval or variances to operate ATV's on their own rural private property.

Why would anyone think that it's any different in a medium / high density neighborhood like Haler Heights?
allyoop
#54 Feb 6, 2013
everyon talks about respect. i would suggest you check out jim's facebook page and see how he calls the people who are against the atv and trailbike area: f****** Bi*****. Is that respectable or more to the point, acting like an adult?

This thing has gotten way out of control and no matter what happens jim says he will do what he wants on his property.

ordinances in the city are not followed anyway, so what difference will all this make. people hunt here almost all the time and not a city official pays any attention. people even send in their own pics to the daily news so they can be printed or the put them on facebook.

Respect should be an important part of this city trying to recover but it certainly is not in evidence now.
Troublemaker
#55 Feb 6, 2013
allyoop wrote:
everyon talks about respect. i would suggest you check out jim's facebook page and see how he calls the people who are against the atv and trailbike area: f****** Bi*****. Is that respectable or more to the point, acting like an adult?
This thing has gotten way out of control and no matter what happens jim says he will do what he wants on his property.
ordinances in the city are not followed anyway, so what difference will all this make. people hunt here almost all the time and not a city official pays any attention. people even send in their own pics to the daily news so they can be printed or the put them on facebook.
Respect should be an important part of this city trying to recover but it certainly is not in evidence now.
I think if it doesn't pass, it will be appealed to Common Pleas, where adults make legal and binding decisions.

You write that ordinances are not followed in the city anyway and what difference does it make? Plenty. The downtown clowns only enforce selective ones to suit themselves. It's time for everybody to complain about enforcement. They come after me, I report the violators too. Even if they do nothing, I make them answer the phone and do the paperwork.

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Research is key
#56 Feb 6, 2013
Friends in High Places wrote:
<quoted text>Even rural landowners in PA, with much, much larger tracts of land than Jimmies recent acquisition, need to obtain conditional use approval or variances to operate ATV's on their own rural private property.
Why would anyone think that it's any different in a medium / high density neighborhood like Haler Heights?
LOL You are an expert in all rural area ordinacing I guess?

Cause it is hogwash otherwise.

State law says that ATVs are legal for use on a person's private property with the caveat that local ordinance can influence that.

But that's as far as it goes.

You are making wide blanket assumptions, much like some on our council are.

Which is about the norm for Topix "experts".
Research is key
#57 Feb 6, 2013
Troublemaker wrote:
<quoted text>
I think if it doesn't pass, it will be appealed to Common Pleas, where adults make legal and binding decisions.
You write that ordinances are not followed in the city anyway and what difference does it make? Plenty. The downtown clowns only enforce selective ones to suit themselves. It's time for everybody to complain about enforcement. They come after me, I report the violators too. Even if they do nothing, I make them answer the phone and do the paperwork.
The next step for this if it doesnt pass will be in fact for the people who want it to go thru to Common Please court to plead their case like you say....but in order to do so, they will have to decide what they are actually complaining about.

As it stands they want ATVs and dirt bikes banned in the whole city based on what is happening in one block of Haler Heights on ONE piece of privately owned property.

They have no legal legs to stand on right now ...its just a couple neighbors squabbling....and would have to prove damages and what they claim are the problems in order to get the county court to interfere with a municipal issue.

They would need to do environmental studies, sound studies, and all sorts of work to prepare for a real court case.

They cant just walk in to chambers, thump their legal chests and demand action like they are doing at the city level.

That will take years....and by then Jimmy's kids will be gone and the old people who are complaining will be in retirement homes.

Unless they organize much better and get much more real support than they actually have, as it stands they are just a band of a few cranky retirees who dont like something their neighbor is doing. If they have any chance at all, it would be tonight because certain council members are looking at the issue without seeing all the issues and will vote with a rubber stamp just to quiet the few cranky people.... but if not, they are out of steam.
Research is key
#58 Feb 6, 2013
allyoop wrote:
everyon talks about respect. i would suggest you check out jim's facebook page and see how he calls the people who are against the atv and trailbike area: f****** Bi*****. Is that respectable or more to the point, acting like an adult?
Well, it goes both ways.

Some old woman came to my door a while back asking me to sign her petition FOR the ban.....I told her I wasnt interested. Rather than just leave, she went on about how much of a critical issue this was for me and my family. I told her that I thought that the whole thing was ridiculous and the proposed ordinance was BS and she cussed me out! I told her to get the hell off my property and stick her petition where the sun don't shine.

No idea who she was but she wasnt a very nice lady.

So, while agree there is childishness going on, it certainly is not one sided.
Troublemaker
#59 Feb 6, 2013
Research is key wrote:
<quoted text>
The next step for this if it doesnt pass will be in fact for the people who want it to go thru to Common Please court to plead their case like you say....but in order to do so, they will have to decide what they are actually complaining about.
As it stands they want ATVs and dirt bikes banned in the whole city based on what is happening in one block of Haler Heights on ONE piece of privately owned property.
They have no legal legs to stand on right now ...its just a couple neighbors squabbling....and would have to prove damages and what they claim are the problems in order to get the county court to interfere with a municipal issue.
They would need to do environmental studies, sound studies, and all sorts of work to prepare for a real court case.
They cant just walk in to chambers, thump their legal chests and demand action like they are doing at the city level.
That will take years....and by then Jimmy's kids will be gone and the old people who are complaining will be in retirement homes.
Unless they organize much better and get much more real support than they actually have, as it stands they are just a band of a few cranky retirees who dont like something their neighbor is doing. If they have any chance at all, it would be tonight because certain council members are looking at the issue without seeing all the issues and will vote with a rubber stamp just to quiet the few cranky people.... but if not, they are out of steam.
I'm no lawyer nor do I live in Haler Heights. I do know the ordinance is not one paragraph that only pertains to keeping business development out of the neighborhood.

Covenants are broadly written to cover all sorts of quality of life issues.

Lawyers will spend all kinds of time and money on their own issues than they ever would on a client. I'm sure the lady has been anticipating a fight and has been preparing for a higher court hearing. I could be mistaken, but I recall when this first broke, Segina said (1) the city had no standing in this because there was a covenant and (2) he wished every neighborhood had a covenant. Whether he was being facetious because he didn't want council to be bothered, I don't know.

Generally, covenant rulings in Common Pleas is a glorified zoning board hearing. Most residents don't know what that is, because not surprisingly, McKeesport doesn't do zoning hearings by the book.

If it drags out and becomes moot, as you claim, doesn't that have the same effect as getting the ordinance passed, as least for the time being?

I don't agree that these are a bunch of cranky old people. To me, a retired attorney and a long-time business owner are not the same as a bored senior citizen.

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Research is key
#60 Feb 6, 2013
Troublemaker wrote:
<quoted text>

I don't agree that these are a bunch of cranky old people. To me, a retired attorney and a long-time business owner are not the same as a bored senior citizen.
Well, "retired lawyer" describes itself.....too much time on her hands and a knowledge of manipulating the law.

Long time business owner? So what. Many business owners around the world are complete idiots. So its possible.

The way they are acting, they are cranky old people.

They want their way and they are going to get it however they can.

I don't care who they are, what they are doing is bullying.
allyoop
#61 Feb 6, 2013
research is key needs to back up, think what they are saying begore they go on and on. they are losing their point by being mean and calling people names. you may have valid points but you are losing your audience by bieng the bully.

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