We Need to Bring God Back To America ...

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#67 Sep 18, 2009
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The Founding Fathers made it perfectly clear that they were founding a secular state, not a theocracy.

Why don't you show the part of the Constitution that says the founders wanted a state religion, or laws based upon their own religious beliefs? I'm pretty sure that for every quote you can find I can find two quotes that say the opposite.

“Real heroes never came home!”

Since: May 09

Pinkville - You figure it out!

#68 Sep 19, 2009
You are absolutly correct. Now where does that say separation, it does not. It simply ties the hands of congress to express it's religion upon th masses. But I do agree that no matter what we write it can interpreted in many ways.

“Real heroes never came home!”

Since: May 09

Pinkville - You figure it out!

#69 Sep 19, 2009
I'm sorry you forgot to finish the entire 1st amendment. However, you are correct it can be intrepreted in many ways. "Or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or of the people to assemble" and etc: Does that not also give those that believe the freedom of speech and assembly. I, however the supreme court disagrees and they do matter, feel that this was meant not to allow congress nor the states to set a state religion, and not silence those whom want to pray, since this country is based upon, however right or wrong, the freedom to worship where ever they please as long as they do not infringe upon others to do so as well. But as stated the slimy, excuse me, the supreme court, has stated other wise. I have to wonder how many of the amendments will they reverse in the future. Perhaps the 2nd, the 4th or any that they feel will be to their common good! Which really is what this is all about, isn't it? After all they narrowly, by a 5 to 4 vote upheld the 2nd amendment and that one is as plain as you can get!
swingingTbone

Lakeland, FL

#70 Sep 19, 2009
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Where does it state that I can not bring my religion to school or work with me. Congress can make no law...PERIOD. This country was founded on freedom of religion. What the forefathers wanted was for congress not to set any state religion. No where does it say keep religion out of government! It states congress cannot dictate to me any religion. A bunch of old farts decided that this is what they thought that it meant, only. Read the supreme court decision on this matter and you will see that even they say that this is our "interpretation" of the constitution under the 1st amendment! What are they going to interperate next that removes one of our basic freedoms the 4th amendment, the 5th or any of the others. We, the people, are at the mercy of a bunch of old FARTS sitting in Washington imposing their will upon us! That has happened before people change will come, hopefully in my life time.

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#71 Sep 19, 2009
I didn't forget to include it, I didn't see it as relevant to the discussion. I am not saying people don't have the right to assemble, or the right to freedom of speech; but I didn't realize that was pertinent to the conversation.
Of course the religious have the right to assemble; no one is saying that they don't. The words of the Founding Fathers made it clear that they were creating a secular state, even if someone feels that the Constitution is arguable. That's the best way to interpret the Constitution; what did the Founders say?
From "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," ratified by the Senate during Washington's time as president:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Thomas Jefferson on common law:
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law... This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it....Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
Other Jefferson quotes:
"Where the preamble [of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
"I know that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his [George Washington's] secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system [Christianity] than he himself did."

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#72 Sep 19, 2009
James Madison:
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.(See the cases in which negatives were put by J. M. on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes."
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
"Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance."
"Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us."
George Washington:
"For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that those who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it, on all occasions, their effectual support."
"In the Enlightened Age and in this Land of equal Liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States."
Unlike Thomas Jefferson--and Thomas Paine, for that matter--Washington never even got around to recording his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington frequently alluded to Providence in his private correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his many letters to friends and associates throughout his life.(Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 74-75.)
[on Washington's first inaugural speech in April 1789]... That he was not just striking a popular attitude as a politician is revealed by the absence of of the usual Christian terms: he did not mention Christ or even use the word "God." Following the phraseology of the philosophical Deism he professed, he referred to "the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men," to "the benign parent of the human race." (James Thomas Flexner, George Washington and the New Nation [1783-1793], Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1970, p. 184.)
As President, Washington regularly attended Christian services, and he was friendly in his attitude toward Christian values. However, he repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary.... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative. George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian. In the enlightened tradition of his day, he was a devout Deist--just as many of the clergymen who knew him suspected.(Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, pp. 174-175.)
John Adams:
"It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses...." (Remember when some goofball earlier said America was "founded by God?" John Adams would have called you an idiot.)

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#73 Sep 19, 2009
swingingTbone wrote:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Where does it state that I can not bring my religion to school or work with me. Congress can make no law...PERIOD.
No sh*t Dick Tracy. Nobody said otherwise. Nowhere does the Constitution say that the law is based upon religion either, and I just posted a ton of quotes that prove the opposite. There are dozens or hundreds of quotes from our Founders saying they did NOT believe laws or government should be based upon any religion, I even posted a quote from Adams saying the government was made by man and God had no part of it.

Your time of silly superstition is ending, not beginning. Go back to your bronze age ancestors and leave the civilized alone. You are not wanted, by us or by our nation's founders.

“Real heroes never came home!”

Since: May 09

Pinkville - You figure it out!

#74 Sep 20, 2009
If the constitution does call for separation of church and state, why does congress open EVERY session with a prayer? pastor David Dykes opened the last congress in prayer. Why would our senators and rep's break fro religious holidays, wht does the very court that banned this practice open every session in prayer. Sounds to me like the men and women whom made this very law are breaking every year. Now if I have this straight congress, the senate and the supreme court all open with prayer. Now where is separation here....NOT!
Now you can say anything you wish but if the founding fathers had wanted it this way they would have said so. In fact the very first Continental Congress opened with the following statements and prayer. Where does it say separate? It simply does not. It is simply a bunch of "old farts" exerting their will upon the masses..period.

The first Continental Congress opened with a motion to pray this was objected to because the founders weren't sure which clergyman should give this prayer due to their being Episcopalians, Quakers, Anabaptists, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists present.

According to John Adams, "Samuel Adams arose and said that he was no bigot, and could hear a Prayer from any gentleman of Piety and virtue, who was at the same time a friend to his Country."

As a result of Sam Adams' intervention, the motion carried and an Episcopalian clergyman, Rev. Jacob Duche', was prevailed upon to open the next morning's session in prayer.

Duche' read Psalm 35 he then read a prayer:
"Be Thou present, O God of Wisdom, and direct the counsel of this Honorable Assembly; enable them to settle all things on the best and surest foundation; that the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that Order, Harmony, and Peace may be effectually restored, and that Truth and Justice, Religion and Piety, prevail and flourish among the people."

Duche' went on to ask God to preserve the delegates' health and vigor of mind, and to grant them "temporal Blessings" and "everlasting Glory in the world to come."

Rev. Duche' closed his prayer this way: "All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Saviour, Amen."

Separation in here where, I think not.

“Real heroes never came home!”

Since: May 09

Pinkville - You figure it out!

#75 Sep 20, 2009
Ben Belial wrote:
<quoted text>
No sh*t Dick Tracy. Nobody said otherwise. Nowhere does the Constitution say that the law is based upon religion either, and I just posted a ton of quotes that prove the opposite. There are dozens or hundreds of quotes from our Founders saying they did NOT believe laws or government should be based upon any religion, I even posted a quote from Adams saying the government was made by man and God had no part of it.
Your time of silly superstition is ending, not beginning. Go back to your bronze age ancestors and leave the civilized alone. You are not wanted, by us or by our nation's founders.
You are both correct. The is and should not be based upon religion. But each of the founding fathers agreed that the first session would open with prayer. I can only guess that law and religion is what the founders meant when penning the 1st amnedment. I really don't think they intended for a full separation. If they had they would have spelled it out. I will however, write my senator and complain about the senate opening with prayer. I don't believe in God, I don't smoke either. But if you do fine with me just don't push your values upon me. By the same token if there is to be a 'true' separation then lets take religion out of Washingto all together.Period. We can all argue this until hell freezes over but lets at least agree that if thee is to be separation, let it be TOTAL separation..How about that?

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#76 Sep 20, 2009
Beretta wrote:
Now you can say anything you wish but if the founding fathers had wanted it this way they would have said so.
They did say so. I just posted a bunch of quotes of them saying so, and there are many more available. Like a typical Christian, you do not wish to look at the evidence or research for yourself - you simply wish to jam your fingers in your ears and go "La la la la not listening!"

The rest of your post is boring and irrelevant. Until you can respond to all the quotes where the Founders openly stated they were founding a secular state and did not want religion mixed with it I have nothing more to say to, except that you and your kind are dying, and good riddance.

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#77 Sep 20, 2009
Also, this is a news forum, not a preaching forum. Why do you annoying gullible rubes spread your garbage everywhere? You are parasites, finding every place possible to flood with your nonsense. Yet another reason to wish you'd go kill yourselves.
swingingTbone

Lakeland, FL

#79 Sep 20, 2009
You never answered his basic question. If separation is so important why open both houses and the Supreme Court with a prayer to GOD!!
swingingTbone

Lakeland, FL

#80 Sep 20, 2009
Ben Belial wrote:
Also, this is a news forum, not a preaching forum. Why do you annoying gullible rubes spread your garbage everywhere? You are parasites, finding every place possible to flood with your nonsense. Yet another reason to wish you'd go kill yourselves.
And your not spreading your garbage. If you object so much find another forum. Especially if you think that you can't answer the question. When the question turns to why you begin your jibberish and excuse making. Answer the basic question, why pray in the senate, the house and the court if there is to be separation of church and state. Answer or shut up! I can answer it, simply because they know that they are wrong and want to cover their A$$es just in case.

“Real heroes never came home!”

Since: May 09

Pinkville - You figure it out!

#81 Sep 20, 2009
For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. You quote separation and yet John Adams is quoted as saying "Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
I suppose he should have left out the word "religious" in that, yes?
Samuel Adams is quoted as saying "The sum of all is, if we would truly enjoy the gift of HEAVEN, let us become a virtuous people."
James Madison followed Samuel Adams by adding "To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue is a chimerical idea."
Ben Franklin says "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom."
I can continue as long as you can, all the founding fathers were a religious bunch. I am on teh other hand am not i do not believe. However, I do think that the founding fathers mrant to remove God's name from our schools and government. If that is what they meant then they were surly smart enough to say so. Instead they give the 1st amendment that congress sahll make no law respecting an establishment of religion. No where does that state remove religion from our government, they are simply telling the governmnet not to inflcit their religion on the masses.
You, obviously are an ex cop who believes that all cops should have ultimate authority simply because you say so. Keep dreaming my friend it "ain't" a gonna happen, not with me you don't.

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#82 Sep 20, 2009
swingingTbone wrote:
<quoted text>
And your not spreading your garbage. If you object so much find another forum. Especially if you think that you can't answer the question. When the question turns to why you begin your jibberish and excuse making. Answer the basic question, why pray in the senate, the house and the court if there is to be separation of church and state. Answer or shut up! I can answer it, simply because they know that they are wrong and want to cover their A$$es just in case.
Because they're hypocrites.

Now, how does that explain you guys flooding a news forum with topic after topic trying to shove your beliefs down everyone's threats?
swingingTbone

Lakeland, FL

#83 Sep 20, 2009
How many times do I have to tell you before you get it or are you that stupid "I am NOT a christian." My point is congress shall make no law and as long as congress makes no laws concerning religion then they are in compliance with the constitution. There are 9 old FARTS that sit in Washington and impose their will upon us, the public, at will. What are we or you going to loose next? Believe me when I tell you something unless you are a constitutional lawyer I know more of the subject than do you or Beretta. Whom, by the way also states that he is no christain. Now if don't like reading and answering these posts then go else where. However, I suspect that you do enjoy the topic or you would go else where.

“Real heroes never came home!”

Since: May 09

Pinkville - You figure it out!

#84 Sep 21, 2009
Ben Belial wrote:
<quoted text>
Because they're hypocrites.
Now, how does that explain you guys flooding a news forum with topic after topic trying to shove your beliefs down everyone's threats?
I'm sorry but I have to ask did you mean throat? Because 'threat' just does not fit in with your response a threat is 'An act of coercion wherein a negative consequence is proposed to elicit response'. So to shove this down my threat does not compute. Perhaps I am attempting to solicit a threat with some of my remarks, but I would never try and shove anything down your threat. After all you are much, much to educated to allow me to do that, aren't you...my friend.

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#85 Sep 21, 2009
Wonderful responses. One person claiming they're a "Constitutional lawyer"(amazing, I'm actually a super hero, we can all be crazy stuff on the intertron) and the other picking apart a simple typo.

“Real heroes never came home!”

Since: May 09

Pinkville - You figure it out!

#86 Sep 21, 2009
Ben Belial wrote:
Wonderful responses. One person claiming they're a "Constitutional lawyer"(amazing, I'm actually a super hero, we can all be crazy stuff on the intertron) and the other picking apart a simple typo.
Actually when I read post 83 I didn't read anything about anyone claiming to be a constitutional lawyer. First I would learn to spell and then I would learn to pay attention to what I read. Now in that post point out where they say they are a lawyer of any type. Another of your separation issues I suppose.

Since: Aug 09

Toledo, OH

#87 Sep 21, 2009
Beretta wrote:
<quoted text>
Now in that post point out where they say they are a lawyer of any type. Another of your separation issues I suppose.
"unless you are a constitutional lawyer I know more of the subject than do you or Beretta."

Maybe he wasn't saying he was one, but he was implying it with that statement. If he isn't one then I'm not sure why he is claiming to know so much more than everyone else on the subject.

As for my spelling, it's better than the spelling of 95% of Americans. I made a simple typo which you focused on. This is a typical tactic people on the internet use when they cannot argue with facts. "OMG U MADE A TYPO!!!!!!11111"

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