Maumee church votes to quit denomination

May 1, 2010 Full story: Toledo Blade 19

A prominent Protestant church in Maumee voted overwhelmingly yesterday to leave the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the first in northwest Ohio following the national body's decision in August to be more welcoming to homosexuals.

Full Story
Spider

Alpharetta, GA

#1 May 1, 2010
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Now they can eat their own children as commanded in the Bible:

Leviticus 26:29> And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Deuteronomy 28:53> And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.

Jeremiah 19:9> And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend.

Since: Jan 10

Columbus, OH

#2 May 1, 2010
So much good done in the name of religion? Jesus please save us from you followers.

Since: Jan 08

Bangkok, Thailand

#3 May 1, 2010
There are lots of little christians running around, aren't there?
Frank Stanton

Saratoga Springs, NY

#4 May 1, 2010
I'm a Lutheran (ELCA) of more than 50 years, and attend church every single Sunday because I enjoy it. This church leaving ELCA is no big deal. We expected some churches to leave after the Churchwide Assembly this past year (which I wathed in it's entirety on the web).

Some churches will leave ELCA and others will join ELCA.

This is really not much of a story.

I am way past my bedtime because I have to go to church in the morning and it's a 100+ mile trip for me, so...

Good Nite !

:)

PEACE !

Since: Jan 10

Columbus, OH

#6 May 1, 2010
They can run, but, they can't hide.

Since: Jun 09

United States

#7 May 1, 2010
Spider wrote:
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Now they can eat their own children as commanded in the Bible:
Leviticus 26:29> And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Deuteronomy 28:53> And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.
Jeremiah 19:9> And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend.
Pulling single verses to meet your needs are exactly what the "talibangelical" or whatever people do to say homosexuality is an abomination.

Leviticus 26: 27-29> And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Deuteronomy 28:15,53> 15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

Jerimiah 19:4,9> 4Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
9And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

If you walk contrary to God, he will walk contrary to you, and you will do horrible things, like eat the flesh of your sons. Not exactly the message of a forgiving, loving God, but Old Testament God was all about the justice. All of those verses you pulled are describing the punishment that will come to those that walk contrary to God's word. It is not a commandment of God to eat your kids.

Since: Apr 07

Philadelphia, PA

#8 May 2, 2010
Actually, this is hugely problematic. The main objective -- as modified -- was to be *supportive* to these people. Therefore, this vote represents their *ironclad opposition* to the slightest support for these people.

That is exactly the same thing as saying that the vicious fighting will only be prolonged. These people basically voted *for the right to retain their prejudice and to oppose* the "bad, bad gays," which the pro-gay are no longer tolerating in any way, shape or form whatsoever.

If these people start claiming discrimination for the way they're treated *because they did this*, they need to be ignored or, if they are obstructive, to be met with every opposition up to and including lawsuits, period. This is not the way to run a railroad, these people have *reaffirmed* their prejudice, and they are not going to back down. Meet them relentlessly and in kind: This. must. stop.

If they minded their own goddamn business and weren't affecting the rights of a minority, it would be a different story.

Since: Apr 07

Philadelphia, PA

#9 May 2, 2010
Barney Stinson wrote:
<quoted text> Pulling single verses to meet your needs are exactly what the "talibangelical" or whatever people do to say homosexuality is an abomination.
Leviticus 26: 27-29> And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Deuteronomy 28:15,53> 15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
Jerimiah 19:4,9> 4Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
9And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
If you walk contrary to God, he will walk contrary to you, and you will do horrible things, like eat the flesh of your sons. Not exactly the message of a forgiving, loving God, but Old Testament God was all about the justice. All of those verses you pulled are describing the punishment that will come to those that walk contrary to God's word. It is not a commandment of God to eat your kids.
(I can't know for sure, but) maybe he did that to make a point.
tahnl

Almere, Netherlands

#10 May 2, 2010
...so let God do the punishing and let the rest of us get on with our lives in peace.

If there is a heaven, filled with the religious right, I know I'll be there - because it would be my version of pure hell!
Barney Stinson wrote:
<quoted text> Pulling single verses to meet your needs are exactly what the "talibangelical" or whatever people do to say homosexuality is an abomination.
Leviticus 26: 27-29> And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Deuteronomy 28:15,53> 15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
53And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
Jerimiah 19:4,9> 4Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
9And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
If you walk contrary to God, he will walk contrary to you, and you will do horrible things, like eat the flesh of your sons. Not exactly the message of a forgiving, loving God, but Old Testament God was all about the justice. All of those verses you pulled are describing the punishment that will come to those that walk contrary to God's word. It is not a commandment of God to eat your kids.
Listen to the Word

Meadview, AZ

#11 May 2, 2010
If you read the article above, it is obvious that The Toledo Blade accurately described neither the ELCA's vote in summer nor the position of St. Paul's in Maumee's point of dissent.

The ELCA allowed homosexual pastors before this past summer and St. Paul's will continue to welcome homosexuals into its congregation, as it did before. Read other issues of The Toledo Blade for a more accurate picture of St. Paul's position and the official records of the ELCA conventions of the past (prior to 2009) for the complete picture. It's all on black on white for those who want to be "gay bashers" and "anti-gay bashers," both are of the same ilk.

The issue of whether or not homosexuality is a sin is still the crux of the issue. The historic, grammatical method of biblical interpretation will draw the conclusion from the operative scriptures that it is a sin, comparable to other sins as alcoholism, lying, fornication, adultery, gossipping, name calling, slander, and the like and is to be dealt with as all other sins.

The modern critical method of biblical interpretation "may" draw the conclusion from the same operative scriptures that homosexuality is not a sin. I say "may" because the modern critical method of biblication interpretation has understood the operative scriptures in several different ways, ultimately drawing the conclusion that we cannot tell for sure what the Bible is saying in this area of morality. Hence is goes with the modern flow on morality in the same way that it changes its position on the issues of the end of the world as often as a new world crisis forms or a new book or movie on the end of the world comes along.

Since churches and church bodies and individual Christians do not agree on how the Bible is to be read and understood (interpreted), there will be, as there should be, separation on the issue. The bottom line is that both positions cannot be right. At least one has to be wrong. The only struggle seems to be the struggle for money (who gets the property) and power (who gets the biggest following). At least that it what the ELCA leadership is making as some of their biggest churches are leaving.

Since: Jun 09

United States

#12 May 2, 2010
rdg1234 wrote:
<quoted text>
(I can't know for sure, but) maybe he did that to make a point.
I couldn't tell. But it really bugs me when people take single verses and try to turn it to fit what they want. I always call it out whether its the fundies or the anti-fundies trying to prove that the other is wrong.

DNF

“Judge more and you love less”

Since: Apr 07

Newark OH-Baltimore MD-S.Fla

#13 May 2, 2010
Listen to the Word wrote:
If you read the article above, it is obvious that The Toledo Blade accurately described neither the ELCA's vote in summer nor the position of St. Paul's in Maumee's point of dissent.
The ELCA allowed homosexual pastors before this past summer and St. Paul's will continue to welcome homosexuals into its congregation, as it did before. Read other issues of The Toledo Blade for a more accurate picture of St. Paul's position and the official records of the ELCA conventions of the past (prior to 2009) for the complete picture. It's all on black on white for those who want to be "gay bashers" and "anti-gay bashers," both are of the same ilk.
The issue of whether or not homosexuality is a sin is still the crux of the issue. The historic, grammatical method of biblical interpretation will draw the conclusion from the operative scriptures that it is a sin, comparable to other sins as alcoholism, lying, fornication, adultery, gossipping, name calling, slander, and the like and is to be dealt with as all other sins.
The modern critical method of biblical interpretation "may" draw the conclusion from the same operative scriptures that homosexuality is not a sin. I say "may" because the modern critical method of biblication interpretation has understood the operative scriptures in several different ways, ultimately drawing the conclusion that we cannot tell for sure what the Bible is saying in this area of morality. Hence is goes with the modern flow on morality in the same way that it changes its position on the issues of the end of the world as often as a new world crisis forms or a new book or movie on the end of the world comes along.
Since churches and church bodies and individual Christians do not agree on how the Bible is to be read and understood (interpreted), there will be, as there should be, separation on the issue. The bottom line is that both positions cannot be right. At least one has to be wrong. The only struggle seems to be the struggle for money (who gets the property) and power (who gets the biggest following). At least that it what the ELCA leadership is making as some of their biggest churches are leaving.
Have to agree with you about the money and property issues. Seems every Church that decides to leave it's National body sues to take the money and property with them. In every case I've seen they ignore the covenant (and legal contacts) they made with the National Church and decide they don't want to follow the rules anymore on any thing.
Frank Stanton

Saratoga Springs, NY

#14 May 2, 2010
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>Have to agree with you about the money and property issues. Seems every Church that decides to leave it's National body sues to take the money and property with them. In every case I've seen they ignore the covenant (and legal contacts) they made with the National Church and decide they don't want to follow the rules anymore on any thing.
In the Lutheran Church (ELCA), the church building, land, and all other thins inn the church are owned by that individual church. The national body, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) does not own ANY individual church, nor it's land, nor it's possessions. Churches associated with ELCA are free to leave ELCA anytime they wish, and their property does not affect ELCA in any fashion.

DNF

“Judge more and you love less”

Since: Apr 07

Newark OH-Baltimore MD-S.Fla

#15 May 3, 2010
Frank Stanton wrote:
<quoted text>
In the Lutheran Church (ELCA), the church building, land, and all other thins inn the church are owned by that individual church. The national body, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) does not own ANY individual church, nor it's land, nor it's possessions. Churches associated with ELCA are free to leave ELCA anytime they wish, and their property does not affect ELCA in any fashion.
I wasn't aware of that. I should have researched it before shooting off my mouth.
Thanks Frank for setting me "straight". To be honest that's a system I can support. After all a Church is a community and is built by the people who support it. Why should the National Church be able to claim all the credit (and $$$) for the work of that particular congregation? It always sort of bothered me that the National Church of other denominations would have that sort of arrangement in their bylaws. I suspect many people don't even know if their Church has this type of arrangement with the National body or some other deal in case they decide to leave.
Frank Stanton

Saratoga Springs, NY

#16 May 3, 2010
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>I wasn't aware of that. I should have researched it before shooting off my mouth.
Thanks Frank for setting me "straight". To be honest that's a system I can support. After all a Church is a community and is built by the people who support it. Why should the National Church be able to claim all the credit (and $$$) for the work of that particular congregation? It always sort of bothered me that the National Church of other denominations would have that sort of arrangement in their bylaws. I suspect many people don't even know if their Church has this type of arrangement with the National body or some other deal in case they decide to leave.
MOST Protestant churches have the arrangement I described. For instance, there is no "Lutheran Church" as their is a "Roman Catholic Church" or "Episcopal Church". The Roman Catholic Church, and The Episcopal Church DO own the church buildings and land of the local parishes. I believe that these are the only church bodies that do so.

Lutheran churches, Methodist churches, Baptist churches, etc. are independent on the parish level. They own their land, buildings, and other things and freely enter into associations with other churches.

For instance, in the United States, the Lutherans are organized into "synods". The two largest Lutheran synods are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS). ELCA has about 4.5 million members, and LCMS has about 2.5 million members. The next largest Lutheran synod, the Wisconsin Synod, has less than a half million members.

But since all these synods have "Lutheran" in their name, people mistakenly think they are "one church". They are NOT. Actually, each Lutheran synod is a separate denomination, oftentimes having different beliefs and practices from other Lutheran synods, and because of that, have no contacts or dealings at all with the other Lutheran churches who are a member of a different Lutheran synod. And most often, each synod on the national level has no dealings with any other Lutheran synod. Each synod is in effect, a separate denomination, even though they have "Lutheran" in their name.

But in each case, a church is free to join, or withdraw, or change to, a different synod whenever they wish to do so. Although this does not happen very often, my church in East Northport, where I was a member for many years, changed from LCMS to ELCA.

And even in denominations and synods of Protestant churches in the U.S., beliefs and practices of churches belong to the same denominations and synods can vary considerably.

So get this idea of a "National Church" body out of your head, because amongst MOST Protestant churches in the U.S., whatever their denomination, there is no such thing.

I hope I have cleared up some of your misconceptions here.

PEACE !

:)

DNF

“Judge more and you love less”

Since: Apr 07

Newark OH-Baltimore MD-S.Fla

#17 May 3, 2010
Frank Stanton wrote:
<quoted text>
MOST Protestant churches have the arrangement I described. For instance, there is no "Lutheran Church" as their is a "Roman Catholic Church" or "Episcopal Church". The Roman Catholic Church, and The Episcopal Church DO own the church buildings and land of the local parishes. I believe that these are the only church bodies that do so.
Lutheran churches, Methodist churches, Baptist churches, etc. are independent on the parish level. They own their land, buildings, and other things and freely enter into associations with other churches.
For instance, in the United States, the Lutherans are organized into "synods". The two largest Lutheran synods are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS). ELCA has about 4.5 million members, and LCMS has about 2.5 million members. The next largest Lutheran synod, the Wisconsin Synod, has less than a half million members.
But since all these synods have "Lutheran" in their name, people mistakenly think they are "one church". They are NOT. Actually, each Lutheran synod is a separate denomination, oftentimes having different beliefs and practices from other Lutheran synods, and because of that, have no contacts or dealings at all with the other Lutheran churches who are a member of a different Lutheran synod. And most often, each synod on the national level has no dealings with any other Lutheran synod. Each synod is in effect, a separate denomination, even though they have "Lutheran" in their name.
But in each case, a church is free to join, or withdraw, or change to, a different synod whenever they wish to do so. Although this does not happen very often, my church in East Northport, where I was a member for many years, changed from LCMS to ELCA.
And even in denominations and synods of Protestant churches in the U.S., beliefs and practices of churches belong to the same denominations and synods can vary considerably.
So get this idea of a "National Church" body out of your head, because amongst MOST Protestant churches in the U.S., whatever their denomination, there is no such thing.
I hope I have cleared up some of your misconceptions here.
PEACE !
:)
Yes it did. My thanks. Presbyterians also have synods. But I never was able to get a clear understanding of how the Church was structured or what we believed in and why. When some of the answers about beliefs were given, to me they made very little sense. Pre-Determination for example.
Frank Stanton

Saratoga Springs, NY

#18 May 3, 2010
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>Yes it did. My thanks. Presbyterians also have synods. But I never was able to get a clear understanding of how the Church was structured or what we believed in and why. When some of the answers about beliefs were given, to me they made very little sense. Pre-Determination for example.
Well, I was born and raised a Lutheran and am an active church-goer each Sunday because I like it. I have always been a pretty active church-goer. But oftentimes over the years when I lived in other states, there was not a Lutheran Church nearby. So I attended other Protestant denominations. I also minored in theology at college. I also studied the differences in the various Christian denominations including the Roman Catholics, Orthodox churches, Anglicanism, and the various Protestant denominations.

Back in 1995, to make a very long story very short, I changed denominations to The United Church Of Christ. I as an active member of the Sayville Congregational United Church Of Christ from 1995 to 2009, when I relocated my place of residence a few hundred miles northwest.

In the past 6 months I have attended 14 churches in search of another church to call my own. These churches included Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, and churches in The United Church Of Christ. Presently I have narrowed my choices down from 14 churches to 2 churches, and I have been attending each of those 2 Lutheran churches on alternate Sundays. Hopefully, in the next few weeks or months I will make a decision.

It's not too hard to find out about the differences in beliefs and liturgies in the different Christian denominations. And there's a wide variety amongst individual congregations even within the same denominations and/or synods.

I would suggest you read a bit about these things and then start visiting different churches until you find one that you like. It may take a few weeks or months, but I think you will find it well worth the effort if it brings you closer to God.

Hope this helps.

PEACE !

:)
Frank Stanton

Saratoga Springs, NY

#19 May 3, 2010
btw, ALL of those 14 churches I have attended in the past few months, including the two Lutheran churches I am still attending (one in Albany, 53 miles distant, and one in Canajoharie 24 miles distant) welcome gay people, so I certainly haven't had a problem with that aspect of things.

DNF

“Judge more and you love less”

Since: Apr 07

Newark OH-Baltimore MD-S.Fla

#20 May 5, 2010
Frank Stanton wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I was born and raised a Lutheran and am an active church-goer each Sunday because I like it. I have always been a pretty active church-goer. But oftentimes over the years when I lived in other states, there was not a Lutheran Church nearby. So I attended other Protestant denominations. I also minored in theology at college. I also studied the differences in the various Christian denominations including the Roman Catholics, Orthodox churches, Anglicanism, and the various Protestant denominations.
Back in 1995, to make a very long story very short, I changed denominations to The United Church Of Christ. I as an active member of the Sayville Congregational United Church Of Christ from 1995 to 2009, when I relocated my place of residence a few hundred miles northwest.
In the past 6 months I have attended 14 churches in search of another church to call my own. These churches included Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, and churches in The United Church Of Christ. Presently I have narrowed my choices down from 14 churches to 2 churches, and I have been attending each of those 2 Lutheran churches on alternate Sundays. Hopefully, in the next few weeks or months I will make a decision.
It's not too hard to find out about the differences in beliefs and liturgies in the different Christian denominations. And there's a wide variety amongst individual congregations even within the same denominations and/or synods.
I would suggest you read a bit about these things and then start visiting different churches until you find one that you like. It may take a few weeks or months, but I think you will find it well worth the effort if it brings you closer to God.
Hope this helps.
PEACE !
:)
we've had this conversation a few times. I found that the Unitarian Universalists provide me with the best avenue to seek and experience my Higher Power.

Namaste

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Maumee Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
ray hanjora 10 hr disgusted 2
Toledo doo wop/50s bands 12 hr Dannydolphin 1
online jobs for students Fri kid 3
Jobless rates reach 13-year low Dec 21 legend 5
Ohio Supreme Court rules in favor of Toledo red... Dec 20 They cannot kill ... 2
Adults-only couples hotel back on in Orange Tow... Dec 18 MJW 2
Chrysler to take over supplier-run Toledo Jeep ... (Nov '10) Dec 18 DRWO 1,624
Maumee Dating
Find my Match
More from around the web

Maumee People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

Maumee News, Events & Info

Click for news, events and info in Maumee

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]

NFL Latest News

Updated 2:51 pm PST

Bleacher Report 2:51PM
Gordon Ban Gives Browns Flexibility
NBC Sports 2:57 PM
Gordon may appeal suspension
NFL 5:06 PM
Johnny Manziel fined for being late to treatment
NBC Sports 6:50 PM
Legal fights looming over Gordon suspension
ESPN 7:39 PM
On the house: Bar offers free tab if Lions win