William

Columbus, GA

#21 May 21, 2013
Does your church use a bible that has the word "forgiven" in place of "remission" in Acts 2:38?

Danger, Will Robinson

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#22 May 21, 2013
Dave:“how can so many be in fellowship with many differing ideas”.

Randy: The main thing keeping me from moving forward.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#23 May 21, 2013
William wrote:
"Peter ties them [repent and be baptized] together UNTO/INTO/TOWARDS/FOR remission of sins- Act 2:38."
Peter also then tells these men of Israel when their sins would be taken away, and it's not at the point where they got baptized either.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
But churches (pick a name, any name) everywhere today will tell you that when you get in the water, your sins are forgiven. You have "sealed the deal" as I once heard a Pentecostal preacher loudly proclaim. You can even get any number of "bibles" today that have the text of Acts 2:38 changed from "remission of sis" to "forgiveness of sins".
They are most assuredly not the same thing.
The word "when" in the KJV is not the usual word for when. It is hopas, in the Greek it reads literally "so as". In other words, the people were to repent and be converted (2 commands), that sins may be forgiven, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord (2 promises). I see great parallels with Acts 2:38, and I see that times of refreshing from His presence to be the gift of the indwelling Spirit. And, He will eventually send Jesus back when the time for restitution of all things is at hand.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#24 May 21, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
Dave:“how can so many be in fellowship with many differing ideas”.
Randy: The main thing keeping me from moving forward.
Randy, please do not let this hinder you from moving forward and obeying God. The way we have fellowship is to walk in the light as Jesus is in the light. None of us-no, not one-are going to agree perfectly on everything. I'm not always right, you're not, Bobby isn't, JR and Heath aren't-but Jesus is. Our relationship with Him is first and foremost.

I am in a different place in my walk with Christ than I was even 6 months ago. It's scary and exciting all at the same time-yet by being in Him I will get through it, and I have gotten stronger in my faith and dependence on Him.

We won't make it out of this world alive without Jesus. To me, Randy, the only thing you haven't done is been baptized. No doubt you confess Jesus as Lord, you seem to have a heart for Him and have talents that the Master can use greatly through you. Don't let worldly, human disagreements and opinions get between you and Jesus.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#25 May 21, 2013
A very good explanation of the Eucharist by St. Hilary of Poitiers a 4th Century French Bishop. One of thousands I could use from an Christian writer of the first 1500 years.

Remember this verse “And the world will no longer see Me, but ye shall see Me; because I live ye shall live also; because I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you”[John 14:19].

" Now I ask those who bring forward a unity of will between Father and Son, whether Christ is in us to-day through verity of nature or through agreement of will. For if in truth the Word has been made flesh and we in very truth receive the Word made flesh as food from the Lord, are we not bound to believe that He abides in us naturally, Who, born as a man, has assumed the nature of our flesh now inseparable from Himself, and has conjoined the nature of His own flesh to the nature of the eternal Godhead in the sacrament by which His flesh is communicated to us?[....]

Now how it is that we are in Him through the sacrament of the flesh and blood bestowed upon us, He Himself testifies, saying,“And the world will no longer see Me, but ye shall see Me; because I live ye shall live also; because I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you”[John 14:19]. If He wished to indicate a mere unity of will, why did He set forth a kind of gradation and sequence in the completion of the unity, unless it were that, since He was in the Father through the nature of Deity, and we on the contrary in Him through His birth in the body, He would have us believe that He is in us through the mystery of the sacraments?

Hence, if indeed Christ has taken to Himself the flesh of our body, and that Man Who was born from Mary was indeed Christ, and we indeed receive in a mystery the flesh of His body—(and for this cause we shall be one, because the Father is in Him and He in us),—how can a unity of will be maintained, seeing that the special property of nature received through the sacrament is the sacrament of a perfect unity?Let us read what is written, let us understand what we read, and then fulfil the demands of a perfect faith. For as to what we say concerning the reality of Christ’s nature within us, unless we have been taught by Him, our words are foolish and impious. For He says Himself,“My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood abideth in Me, and I in him.”[John 6:55-56]As to the verity of the flesh and blood there is no room left for doubt. For now both from the declaration of the Lord Himself and our own faith, it is verily flesh and verily blood. And these when eaten and drunk, bring it to pass that both we are in Christ and Christ in us. Is not this true? Yet they who affirm that Christ Jesus is not truly God are welcome to find it false. He therefore Himself is in us through the flesh and we in Him, whilst together with Him our own selves are in God.This is the cause of our life that we have Christ dwelling within our carnal selves through the flesh, and we shall live through Him in the same manner as He lives through the Father. If, then, we live naturally through Him according to the flesh, that is, have partaken of the nature of His flesh, must He not naturally have the Father within Himself according to the Spirit since He Himself lives through the Father?"
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#26 May 21, 2013
William wrote:
Does your church use a bible that has the word "forgiven" in place of "remission" in Acts 2:38?
Danger, Will Robinson
Bible Trivia. Did you now there have been almost 300,000 different translations of NT since 1500.

"What does YOUR Bible say"
William

Sylacauga, AL

#27 May 21, 2013
What does Y O U R bible say, Mike? Your boys supposedly put it together.
William

Sylacauga, AL

#28 May 21, 2013
Mike, the NAB that the Catholic church currently reads doesn't even say the same thing as the 1899 Douey-Rheims bible regarding Acts 2:38.

NAB says forgiveness. D-R says remission.

So much for consistentcy.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#29 May 21, 2013
William wrote:
Mike, the NAB that the Catholic church currently reads doesn't even say the same thing as the 1899 Douey-Rheims bible regarding Acts 2:38.
NAB says forgiveness. D-R says remission.
So much for consistentcy.
Amen I agree. Every translation has errors. The point I was trying to get across is that you believe in Sola Scriptua, and there are 300,000 translations out their including those in other languages, which one are you going to use.

You were making a point about 1 word making a difference and the Church is the pillar of Truth, no book is. It is the written word of God sufficient for teaching.

The official Bible of the CC, translated to Latin, the world language at that time, in 380. It is profitable for teaching not for personal interpretion like the Bible says
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#30 May 21, 2013
William wrote:
Mike, the NAB that the Catholic church currently reads doesn't even say the same thing as the 1899 Douey-Rheims bible regarding Acts 2:38.
NAB says forgiveness. D-R says remission.
So much for consistentcy.
Is the Latin Vulgate. Unchanged for 1632 years.
William

Sylacauga, AL

#31 May 21, 2013
Remission is not the same thing as forgiveness. Things that are different are not the same thing.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#32 May 21, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I don’t know any coc preacher who teaches that baptism is efficacious. However, its taken that way by people who believe baptism is mere symbolism. When the Leper dipped 7 times for healing, was it efficacious? His dipping 7 times did cause or make him clean- God was at work.
I see two issues here. If it is not mere symbolism that term must mean that it is more than a symbol. Then if we take the approach the leper dipped 7 times then we run the risk of earning our salvation. That was under the OT law system where works of the law was expected. That system has been replaced with grace. Paul said it this way: You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Now, I personally believe that our works are evidence of our salvation. We don't do works to get saved but because we are saved, we do so from a grateful heart. We have all experienced issues where we help someone and they never even say thanks-it's like we must have owed it to them. Grace is an attitude of thankfulness. God does not owe us anything...
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#33 May 21, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I've been there for a little while now. Feels pretty good to be honest. Mike declares Jesus as Lord. Perhaps he's repented and been baptized too. He definitely holds doctrine I absolutely disagree with, and you won't catch me in a catholic church anytime soon.
Not sure how far we can take this unity in diversity thing? Bobby you're evangelical-you guys should be the experts at it. That is one of the things that still makes me wonder, how can so many be in fellowship with many differing ideas.
Besides, maybe we forget. Mike is in Mississippi, Bobby is in Texas, Randy is in Virginia, Dave is in Kentucky, etc. We aren't "having fellowship"- if we do have fellowship, it's because we are in Christ.
I continue to say if you don't think the Church you go it has the fullness of the Truth, and that the only way to heaven is through what your Church teaches, you are in the wrong Church.

Most of the people I have fellowship with are non Catholic. I live what used to be way out in the country, no Catholics out there but me. I really like most of my neighbors.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#34 May 22, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I see two issues here. If it is not mere symbolism that term must mean that it is more than a symbol. Then if we take the approach the leper dipped 7 times then we run the risk of earning our salvation. That was under the OT law system where works of the law was expected. That system has been replaced with grace. Paul said it this way: You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Now, I personally believe that our works are evidence of our salvation. We don't do works to get saved but because we are saved, we do so from a grateful heart. We have all experienced issues where we help someone and they never even say thanks-it's like we must have owed it to them. Grace is an attitude of thankfulness. God does not owe us anything...
That was not my point at all. Wised I had more time to elaborate but I have a full plate this morning. In short, when I said baptism is more than symbolic I was not saying it's an efficatious work of man...it's a work of God. The Leper did not dip 7 times from merit....but from faith. The water didn't clean him....God did.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#35 May 22, 2013
William wrote:
"Peter ties them [repent and be baptized] together UNTO/INTO/TOWARDS/FOR remission of sins- Act 2:38."
Peter also then tells these men of Israel when their sins would be taken away, and it's not at the point where they got baptized either.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV)
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
But churches (pick a name, any name) everywhere today will tell you that when you get in the water, your sins are forgiven. You have "sealed the deal" as I once heard a Pentecostal preacher loudly proclaim. You can even get any number of "bibles" today that have the text of Acts 2:38 changed from "remission of sis" to "forgiveness of sins".
They are most assuredly not the same thing.
"Repent" meant to turn back and do what God said to do that you had avoided, denied, or somehow gone over and around without doing. Since the matter is that repentance was to do, and God said to be immersed for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit - then it could best be seen as immersion into His name being the point where we did what He said to do, and that remission of sins and the gifting of the Holy Spirit take place at that time in the fullness of the commandment with promise to all future generations.

How can we repent to not do what He commanded? We should be mindful to not divide what God has joined together.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#36 May 22, 2013
Randy_Craiger wrote:
<quoted text>
That was not my point at all. Wised I had more time to elaborate but I have a full plate this morning. In short, when I said baptism is more than symbolic I was not saying it's an efficatious work of man...it's a work of God. The Leper did not dip 7 times from merit....but from faith. The water didn't clean him....God did.
That's ok, I understand where you are coming from, it sound reasonable but it still leans toward law rather than grace. We are probably closer on this than we think.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#37 May 22, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
That's ok, I understand where you are coming from, it sound reasonable but it still leans toward law rather than grace. We are probably closer on this than we think.
If the standards of right and wrong show the greatness of the grace of God, it isn't one vs the other, as both go hand in hand.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#38 May 22, 2013
Back to the topic though; if Jesus said 'this is My body' and 'this is my blood', I can appreciate the CC stance that it 'is' by faith, not that it merely is symbolic. Since there is excellent Scriptural basis from the very words of Jesus Christ - I'm not going to say they are in error on that one!
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#39 May 22, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
"Repent" meant to turn back and do what God said to do that you had avoided, denied, or somehow gone over and around without doing. Since the matter is that repentance was to do, and God said to be immersed for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit - then it could best be seen as immersion into His name being the point where we did what He said to do, and that remission of sins and the gifting of the Holy Spirit take place at that time in the fullness of the commandment with promise to all future generations.
How can we repent to not do what He commanded? We should be mindful to not divide what God has joined together.
You said:"Repent" meant to turn back and do what God said to do that you had avoided, denied, or somehow gone over and around without doing.

I was wondering how you might interpret the meaning of the word repent when scripture (some say Moses wrote genesis) said in the kjv: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Lots of things are going on here-maybe even a bad translation of the word repent.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#40 May 22, 2013
Good question. I haven't studied that out in the Hebrew version yet, but suspect it's possibly a less than perfect translation, or a different meaning of a word? I doubt it grieved Him less to offer up His only begotten Son to redeem us from sin and the evil one.

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