Have Johnny Robertson and his COC bee...
Older and Wiser

Rolla, MO

#254 Nov 16, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
I hate to be the one to break the news to you so late in your life but the denomination known as the Church of Christ was created by Alexander Campbell and polished into its present state by Daniel Sommer. The Church of Christ denomination simply did not exist prior to Alexander Campbell. Aren't you curious why Church of Christ worship spaces are identical to Baptist churches inside? Aren't you curious why you use pasteurized grape juice just like the Baptists? Aren't you curious why Church of Christ preachers are the main focus of an assembly and whose sermons consume the most time? Aren't you curious why you sing all those Baptist hymns? It is because Alexander Campbell, a disillusioned Baptist borrowed all those things from the Baptist Church and put them in his newly created denomination, the Church of Christ. You may choose to ignore your denomination's history but you cannot deny the truth.
I'm very aware of the restoration movement in the 1800's and Alexander Campbell & others in that movment.

Yes, Alexander Campbell & others became disillusioned with the teachings of the Baptist church - BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TEACHING THE TRUTH as written in the Bible!!!

Alexander Campbell & others DID NOT CREATE THE CHURCH OF CHRIST!!!

THEY RESTORED THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH!!!

THE CHURCH OF CHRIST HAS EXISTED SINCE THE CHURCH WAS FIRST ESTABLISHED - BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY!

This is the same church that CHRIST ESTABLISHED - WHEN HE SAID "UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH & THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT".

It is even referred to as the "Churches of Christ" in the Bible.

NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE WILL YOU HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THE BAPTIST CHURCH!!!

Don't you think I can rembember many IGNORANT people like you - calling us CAMPBELLITES???

Back in the 50's & early 60's it was common for IGNORANT people to call the Church of Christ the Campbellite church. Some IGNORANT people still refer to the Lord's church with that derogative term.

Yes, I know all about Alexander Campbell & others involved in the Restoration movment - I KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW...

Are you also aware The Christian Church broke away from the church of Christ - because a group of people wanted to start using an instrumental music in worship. The people who wanted to use instrumental music became The Christian Church.
Older and Wiser

Rolla, MO

#255 Nov 16, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
So, according to you and the Bible, any fruit that grows on a vine can be mashed up, turned into juice and used for communion. Watermelons? Blackberries? Kiwis? Cantaloupes? Tomatoes? Raspberries?
If it is a fruit & grows on a vine - I would say it could be used for communion. You can read the scriptures for yourself about the Lord's Supper & make that determination for yourself. But, as far as I understand - any fruit that grows on a vine would be acceptable.
Older and Wiser

Rolla, MO

#256 Nov 16, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
So, according to you and the Bible, any fruit that grows on a vine can be mashed up, turned into juice and used for communion. Watermelons? Blackberries? Kiwis? Cantaloupes? Tomatoes? Raspberries?
I checked on the internet & found that the Greek word for VINE (ampelos) is eactly the same as the term for grapevine. Therefore, when Christ spoke of "the fruit of the vine" at the Last Supper, he meant the fruit of the GRAPEVINE.

I can't say for sure if this is a fact - but this is what I found on the internet.

But, if this is a fact - then, I suppose grapes is the only fruit that would be acceptable for the communion.
William

Eastaboga, AL

#257 Nov 17, 2013
Older and Wiser wrote:
ALL OF OUR STUDIES & TEACHING COMES STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE,(the King James, the New King James, The New International Version & several other revised versions of the King James Bible)

When I say revised - I mean these revised versions are written in more modern day speech.
Revised, alright. All revised to say completely different things from one another throughout the body of text.

Was the KJV just not good enough?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#258 Nov 17, 2013
Older and Wiser wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm very aware of the restoration movement in the 1800's and Alexander Campbell & others in that movment.
Yes, Alexander Campbell & others became disillusioned with the teachings of the Baptist church - BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TEACHING THE TRUTH as written in the Bible!!!
Alexander Campbell & others DID NOT CREATE THE CHURCH OF CHRIST!!!
THEY RESTORED THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH!!!
THE CHURCH OF CHRIST HAS EXISTED SINCE THE CHURCH WAS FIRST ESTABLISHED - BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY!
This is the same church that CHRIST ESTABLISHED - WHEN HE SAID "UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH & THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT".
It is even referred to as the "Churches of Christ" in the Bible.
NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE WILL YOU HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THE BAPTIST CHURCH!!!
Don't you think I can rembember many IGNORANT people like you - calling us CAMPBELLITES???
Back in the 50's & early 60's it was common for IGNORANT people to call the Church of Christ the Campbellite church. Some IGNORANT people still refer to the Lord's church with that derogative term.
Yes, I know all about Alexander Campbell & others involved in the Restoration movment - I KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW...
Are you also aware The Christian Church broke away from the church of Christ - because a group of people wanted to start using an instrumental music in worship. The people who wanted to use instrumental music became The Christian Church.
First of all, Alexander Campbell did not restore anything. Like it or not, Campbell and Daniel Sommer created the Church of Christ denomination pretending it was the Church of the first century. Do you really believe the Baptist Church is just like the Church of the first century? You must if, as you say, Campbell restored the Church of the first century why do your worship practices mimic those of the Baptist Church? Why are the interiors of Church of Christ worship spaces virtually identical to those of the Baptist Church? You have been lied to just as I was. Your claim to know more about this than me is ludicrous.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#259 Nov 17, 2013
Older and Wiser wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you show me ANYWHERE (in the New Testament) where instruments in worship is authorized???
NO YOU CAN'T!!!
BECAUSE INSTRUMENTS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED IN WORSHIP (IN THE NEW TESTAMENT'COVENANT)- therefore, when we include instrumental instruments in our worship - WE ARE ADDING TO GOD'S WORD!
Yes, INSTRUMENTS IN WORSHIP are authorized (EVEN COMMANDED)- IN THE OLD TEATAMENT/COVENANT - but not in the NEW TESTAMENT/COVENANT...
If we're going to worship like they did under the old covenant - then we'll have to start offering animal sacrifices in our worship services.
What's the difference in using instruments in or worship today & and offering animal sacrifices in our worship today???
I refuse to get my bibical knowledge by going to some website - and you would do well to stop going to a website or a book written about the bible for you information - BECAUSE IT IS MAKING YOU LOOK LIKE A ABSOLUTE IDIOT!!!
Maybe someone can answer your questions when you can find a "worship service" in the NT. Good luck-you'll be 700 years old and won't have found it.

Old timer, what is the law of Christ?
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#260 Nov 17, 2013
Older and Wiser wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm very aware of the restoration movement in the 1800's and Alexander Campbell & others in that movment.
Alexander Campbell & others DID NOT CREATE THE CHURCH OF CHRIST!!!
THEY RESTORED THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH!!!
THE CHURCH OF CHRIST HAS EXISTED SINCE THE CHURCH WAS FIRST ESTABLISHED - BACK IN THE FIRST CENTURY!
This is the same church that CHRIST ESTABLISHED - WHEN HE SAID "UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH & THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT".
It is even referred to as the "Churches of Christ" in the Bible.
If the Campbells "restored" the first century church then Jesus is a liar, because the church would have been defeated.

Trying to use Romans 16 to justify the name "church of Christ" is misleading because you know there was no place named "the church of Christ at so-and-so" in the first century. No need for "names" back then.
Dave P

Olive Hill, KY

#261 Nov 17, 2013
Older and Wiser wrote:
<quoted text>
The Church of Christ DID NOT CREATE OUR OWN BIBLE - NOR DO WE HAVE ANY KIND OF CREED BOOK - NONE AT ALL!!!
ALL OF OUR STUDIES & TEACHING COMES STRAIGHT FROM THE BIBLE,(the King James, the New King James, The New International Version & several other revised versions of the King James Bible)
When I say revised - I mean these revised versions are written in more modern day speech.
The churches of Christ are all over this nation & we also have missionaries in many countries around the world!
What does SS mean???
Can you tell me why you think I'm ignorant of history of the Bible & Christianity???
I'm very well informed about the church Jesus created - but I have serious doubts about how well informed YOU about the church Jesus created...
1. Look up "The Living Oracles" by Alexander Campbell, and "Why I am a member of the church of Christ". You probably own that one.

2. The non-instrumental coc has most "members" in Tennessee and Texas. The further north you go, the less it appears.

3. SS means "sola scriptura", basically stating that anyone can pick up a Bible, understand it, and doesn't need the help of anyone else to interpret and understand. It can mean different things to different people. I no longer feel this is a viable way to interpret the Bible. Nor is the "Command, Example, Necessary Inference" the churches of Christ use to interpret Scripture.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#262 Nov 17, 2013
Older and Wiser wrote:
<quoted text>
I checked on the internet & found that the Greek word for VINE (ampelos) is eactly the same as the term for grapevine. Therefore, when Christ spoke of "the fruit of the vine" at the Last Supper, he meant the fruit of the GRAPEVINE.
I can't say for sure if this is a fact - but this is what I found on the internet.
But, if this is a fact - then, I suppose grapes is the only fruit that would be acceptable for the communion.
So why not end the confusion and use exactly what Jews used at Seders and for Passover then and still use to this very day? You can even find it at Walmart. And another question why do you use unleavened bread for communion?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#263 Nov 17, 2013
William wrote:
<quoted text>
Revised, alright. All revised to say completely different things from one another throughout the body of text.
Was the KJV just not good enough?
The Church of England and the Church of Christ denomination share the KJV. Apparently, the CofC would really not have a Bible were it not for the Church of England since they tossed out Alexander Campbell's version. From its very beginning the Church of England has practiced infant baptism, used incense, candles, bells and beautiful vestments, built fabulous churches and cathedrals with magnificent organs and still does today. So if all these things are good enough for the Church of England which freely gave the KJV to the CofC why are these things held in such disdain by the Church of Christ denomination?

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#264 Nov 17, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
So why not end the confusion and use exactly what Jews used at Seders and for Passover then and still use to this very day? You can even find it at Walmart. And another question why do you use unleavened bread for communion?
Sorry meant to use the word Shabbats instead of Seders.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#265 Nov 17, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
The Church of England and the Church of Christ denomination share the KJV. Apparently, the CofC would really not have a Bible were it not for the Church of England since they tossed out Alexander Campbell's version. From its very beginning the Church of England has practiced infant baptism, used incense, candles, bells and beautiful vestments, built fabulous churches and cathedrals with magnificent organs and still does today. So if all these things are good enough for the Church of England which freely gave the KJV to the CofC why are these things held in such disdain by the Church of Christ denomination?
Amen: It has always amazed me how low end Prots embrace a Bible translation by the one the highest end Prot communities. England tried to keep the Anglican Church "Catholic" for centuries.

As for as King James' authority to create a Bible

James I reigned as king of England from 1603 to 1625. He was the son of Mary Queen of Scots, and he had been king of Scotland before succeeding to the English throne at the death of Queen Elizabeth I. He was prompted to produce an English Bible because of the poor and tendentious copies being circulated in England. He feared these could be used by seditious religious and political factions.

His authority was one usurped from the Catholic Church, beginning with his predecessor King Henry VIII. Henry had broken with the Catholic Church and made himself the head of the Church in England, which soon enough became the Church of England. You could say James had no more authority in biblical matters than any head of state, basically none. What authority would a "George Bush Bible" have? The true authority and safeguard over Scripture was and has to be the Catholic Church, to which Christ gave his authority. No secular authority has any rightful authority over the Bible.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#266 Nov 17, 2013
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Amen: It has always amazed me how low end Prots embrace a Bible translation by the one the highest end Prot communities. England tried to keep the Anglican Church "Catholic" for centuries.
As for as King James' authority to create a Bible
James I reigned as king of England from 1603 to 1625. He was the son of Mary Queen of Scots, and he had been king of Scotland before succeeding to the English throne at the death of Queen Elizabeth I. He was prompted to produce an English Bible because of the poor and tendentious copies being circulated in England. He feared these could be used by seditious religious and political factions.
His authority was one usurped from the Catholic Church, beginning with his predecessor King Henry VIII. Henry had broken with the Catholic Church and made himself the head of the Church in England, which soon enough became the Church of England. You could say James had no more authority in biblical matters than any head of state, basically none. What authority would a "George Bush Bible" have? The true authority and safeguard over Scripture was and has to be the Catholic Church, to which Christ gave his authority. No secular authority has any rightful authority over the Bible.
Brilliant! Prots can't get any higher than the Church of England! Prior to Henry VIII all Kings of England were Catholic. All the great cathedrals, abbeys, monasteries and parish churches were built in England by Catholics then either stolen or destroyed by Henry VIII. What's funny is not only does the Church of Christ denomination embrace the Church of England's KJV, the CofC uses it's hymns, even parts of wedding and funeral services and doesn't even know it. Cracks me up!

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#267 Nov 17, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
If the Campbells "restored" the first century church then Jesus is a liar, because the church would have been defeated.
Trying to use Romans 16 to justify the name "church of Christ" is misleading because you know there was no place named "the church of Christ at so-and-so" in the first century. No need for "names" back then.
"If the Campbells "restored" the first century church then Jesus is a liar, because the church would have been defeated."

Brilliant! You have in one sentence blown apart the "Restoration Movement" and the "Church of Christ" denomination.
William

Eastaboga, AL

#268 Nov 17, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
The Church of England and the Church of Christ denomination share the KJV. Apparently, the CofC would really not have a Bible were it not for the Church of England since they tossed out Alexander Campbell's version. From its very beginning the Church of England has practiced infant baptism, used incense, candles, bells and beautiful vestments, built fabulous churches and cathedrals with magnificent organs and still does today. So if all these things are good enough for the Church of England which freely gave the KJV to the CofC why are these things held in such disdain by the Church of Christ denomination?
I got stuck in a CoC school for junior high back in the 70s and they used the KJV for Bible classes. Today, the ones that I see post stuff on Facebook all use anything but the KJV.

If you are on Facebook, go see the "Answering Religious Error" page that a few of their preachers run. They quote the NASB, NKJV, ASY, and NIV. Sometimes a KJV passage.
Dave P

Clarkesville, GA

#270 Nov 17, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
"If the Campbells "restored" the first century church then Jesus is a liar, because the church would have been defeated."
Brilliant! You have in one sentence blown apart the "Restoration Movement" and the "Church of Christ" denomination.
I don't know if most "restoration movement" people even recognize the consequences of what they say sometimes. I was verbally crucified for making that statement at a camp meeting once.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#271 Nov 18, 2013
William wrote:
<quoted text>
Speaking of that, have you sold out everything you own and given the proceeds to the poor yet?
He did tell a young man that, and the apostles in Acts 2 obeyed it. Why have you not sold out too?
Have you sold all you have and given the proceeds to the poor yet? If you believe that is what He's telling you to do - by all means do that!

This bent is a effort to set aside His commandments.

Do you have more than one coat? Have you given all your extra clothes to the Salvation Army or a local Church clothing closet? After all, He said if you have more than one coat, give to him who has none...

When you have a serious or substantive thought, do drop me a line...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#272 Nov 18, 2013
Older and Wiser wrote:
<quoted text>
Barnsweb,
I suggest you STOP READING BOOKS & WEBSITES ABOUT THE BIBLE & start reading the BIBLE ITSELF!!!
It's obvious you've been paying more attention to books & websites about the bible that you have the bible! I refuse to comment on your post - it is not worthy of a response!
All this nonsense you post IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE - therefore it's so nonsensical it has absolutely no credibility.
Don't you realize from the very beginning (back under the old covenant/testament) it was prophecied that Jesus would be born & live on this earth & that he would die on the cross for the sins of mankind. It is also prophsied in the Old Teatament that the Old Law of Moses would be done away with & a new covenant would take its place. And the Gospel is that new covenant to mankind.
Jesus came to earth to fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament.
How can you read Jesus' teaching & all the parabables He used to teach with - and and His "sermon on the mount" and say He was not teaching the commandments of the NEW COVENANT? Christ was preparing the people for the New Covenant which would be binding UPON HIS DEATH...
You need ditch your books & websites ABOUT THE BIBLE - because it it's clear they're just JUST CONFUSING YOU...
onediscipletoanother.org is my web site. I doubt you'll find another that has as much information about the teaching of Jesus and what He said about His words of life.
If Ezekiel 36 has God saying He will give His Spirit to us to write the Torah on our hearts, that we be careful to do what He has instructed us to do in His word from our hearts - how can one believe we are to live by His Spirit and not by His instructions of righteousness? This also goes along with Jeremiah 31:31.
Each and every teaching of Jesus Christ is directly out of the Torah, Prophets and Psalms.
If I'm wrong - do show me a teaching of Jesus Christ that is not in the OT. The gospel was taught from the OT until the gospel accounts were written. In fact, Jesus taught the gospel from the OT.
Revelation 22:14; "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."
John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words, and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."
Do you keep His words? or the commandments of men who say anything contrary to what God said is true and good? Paul couldn't even tell truthfully who gave the Torah to Moses...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#273 Nov 18, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know if most "restoration movement" people even recognize the consequences of what they say sometimes. I was verbally crucified for making that statement at a camp meeting once.
Obviously, they have no clue what they were restoring. They had a good idea in principal, to set aside doctrinal creeds to just follow the Bible - but then fell flat on their face and have debated and devoured themselves by now. Any more it's hard to tell a CoC from a Baptist of 20 years ago - aside from not having a piano or organ in the building...

Isaiah 42. What do you think God was calling them to restore? The shortfalls of their fathers? Following after their own hearts and falling backwards?(Jer. 7)

If Prophecy says the Messiah would magnify Torah and cause the Gentiles to keep the Torah - is Jesus not the Messiah because Gentile Christians today say that He came to nail the Torah to the cross? Many Jews reject Jesus because the Gentiles pay no attention to the longest standing record of the commandments of God and think it was done away with...
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#274 Nov 18, 2013
Few people take the time to investigate if what they have been taught is actually in accord with the Bible, especially the explicit teachings of Jesus. Many Churches teach that we are to 'live by the Spirit' and neglect the commandments God gave. How can the Spirit lead anyone away from doing what God said is right? And how could His Spirit lead us to think what He said is wrong is now right? God will uphold His word higher than He name, and it is the very power by which He created and sustains the heavens and the earth. Regarding the Holy Spirit, see why He said it would be given; Ezekiel 36:26;



"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleanness..."

This is the new thing God said He would do that goes with Jeremiah 31:31- coupled with the fact of the One True Sacrifice for sin having been accomplished on the cross and verified by His resurrection from the dead.



And also note the end of Acts 3, that we are to hear whatever 'that Prophet' tells us, and that ' God, having raised up His servant Jesus, sent Him bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.'



Iniquity is lawlessness. Whose law? The law of God.



If they speak not according to the Law and the Testimony, there is no light in them.(Isaiah 8:20) This is as true today as the day it was first spoken.



Yeshua (Jesus) taught nothing that was not in total accord with the Law and Testimony (Prophets/Psalms), but elevated them to higher standards of grace and truth in the will that God has for mankind. So if His parting words were about discipleship to Him and teaching the disciples to keep His word. He also taught, no man can serve two masters, that he will hear one and despise the other. We need to take Y'shua at His word and be careful to not hear those who teach things that lead people away from doing what God said to believe and do.

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