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81 - 100 of 163 Comments Last updated May 6, 2013
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#82
May 1, 2013
 

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Dave P wrote:
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Randy, how can all be worshipping when one man is preaching? Heaven forbid we have solos, or a church choir. But one individual is teaching or preaching at a time. All the rest are just listening, if they aren't asleep. How is it any different for all to be listening to a sermon, and all listening to a solo performance?
Singing is but one way that we are filled with the Spirit. We agree on this I am sure. I still wonder-did the first century church take up an offering weekly from Pentecost onward? Or did this start with the needy saints at Jerusalem? Any thoughts-I know you and I think alike on many things. If offerings didn't begin until later, were they truly "worshipping" before then?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. So many questions...
I agree with Dave on this one. First look at the focus point of your Church when you walk in. The Pulpit. If I remember right, you sing a few songs, which is good, but is anything going on during the songs? Do they support an act of worship or just to get the congregation engaged? Then there is a collection which is needed.

Next 1 Prayer by the Pastor and 40 minutes of preaching on a few Bible verses picked by the Pastor. A final prayer and an Altar call with no Altar.

I am sorry but for the average person in pew, it is sitting for 40 minutes listening to one mans view of what certain scriptures mean. He has no more authority than the man in the pew.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#83
May 1, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with Dave on this one. First look at the focus point of your Church when you walk in. The Pulpit. If I remember right, you sing a few songs, which is good, but is anything going on during the songs? Do they support an act of worship or just to get the congregation engaged? Then there is a collection which is needed.
Next 1 Prayer by the Pastor and 40 minutes of preaching on a few Bible verses picked by the Pastor. A final prayer and an Altar call with no Altar.
I am sorry but for the average person in pew, it is sitting for 40 minutes listening to one mans view of what certain scriptures mean. He has no more authority than the man in the pew.
At our assembly Sunday we actually had an interesting discussion about what goes on during a catholic service. One of the things mentioned was, be prepared to stand up! A couple of women who had the opportunity mentioned how they all stood up most of the services.

You make an interesting point. Do they support an act of worship, or just get the audience involved? One is about "audience participation". In many church services, that's what the crowd is-merely spectators. Two, many coc would say singing is worship. You say, does it support an act of worship. What I think you're saying is reverence and attitude. Worship is a heart issue. Just DOING something isn't necessarily worship without the reverence and fear of the Lord.

Does the average church goer really "go to worship", or just do religious duty or see the show?

Why do we "go to church" anyway?
mopman

United States

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#84
May 1, 2013
 
Man that is telling the truth there son. Tons of church goers simply "go to church" like a routine kind of thang. On the money too about "worship". I betcha most church attendees really just serving s religious duty. Sad but true.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#85
May 1, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
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I heard a sermon once on "filled with the Spirit" which addresses your very points. Being "filled" means led-by-controlled-by the Spirit presently-ongoing-continuously -everyday. This is a command that is to be carried out daily in the life of the believer- a command built on love not a legal code.
Really, isn't the phrase "legal code" where all of this ultimately leads to? We have people here who read their NT and sees a new legal code put in place, to replace the old one God instated. They also treat it as such. I admit I have been guilty of doing so as well. We see the term "the law of Christ" and treat it as the same in nature as the law of Moses. But, instead, we have the perfect law of LIBERTY, and loving our brethren and helping to bear their burdens are the fulfillment of Christ's law.

In the prophecy from Jeremiah about the new covenant, God said He would write His laws in our minds and hearts, and we would all know the Lord. He didn't give a new covenant to write on tablets of stone, as in "Thou shall not..."
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#86
May 1, 2013
 

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mopman wrote:
Man that is telling the truth there son. Tons of church goers simply "go to church" like a routine kind of thang. On the money too about "worship". I betcha most church attendees really just serving s religious duty. Sad but true.
Have to agree. It is sad but true. If I had a dollar for every time someone went to church, stayed long enough to take the "magic" communion that makes everything cool for another week, then left-I could take a few months off from my job.

Since: Jul 11

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#87
May 1, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
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Have to agree. It is sad but true. If I had a dollar for every time someone went to church, stayed long enough to take the "magic" communion that makes everything cool for another week, then left-I could take a few months off from my job.
I agree, too. Going to church has become something far more different than it should be. Your point about communion is valid also. I’m with seeking wanderer on this whole ‘going to church’ thing. He made some good points on this. I’m not saying it’s wrong to assemble at a building but it has become so unlike how the church begun.

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#88
May 1, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
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Really, isn't the phrase "legal code" where all of this ultimately leads to? We have people here who read their NT and sees a new legal code put in place, to replace the old one God instated. They also treat it as such. I admit I have been guilty of doing so as well. We see the term "the law of Christ" and treat it as the same in nature as the law of Moses. But, instead, we have the perfect law of LIBERTY, and loving our brethren and helping to bear their burdens are the fulfillment of Christ's law.
In the prophecy from Jeremiah about the new covenant, God said He would write His laws in our minds and hearts, and we would all know the Lord. He didn't give a new covenant to write on tablets of stone, as in "Thou shall not..."
This is why I stress the “love factor” instead of pattern theology. I’m not denying certain principles and patterns in scripture- I’m saying it is not as it was with Moses, as you also stated. The law is fulfilled by LOVE not perfect obedience to a set of inferred rules made by man. What one may infer, another may not. Shall I bind something where God has not?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#89
May 1, 2013
 
I don't think what passes today as "church" is nothing like what the first century church did.

Since: Jul 11

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#90
May 1, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
I don't think what passes today as "church" is nothing like what the first century church did.
Sure it’s the same, Dave ;) I just know the early church meet on pews, looking towards a stage, following a routine of “worship”, followed by the invitation song. I’m pretty certain they had “men” walking down the “isles” with Welches grape drink and wafers on pretty silver platters.[women are not allowed to walk down the “church isles” and give the “audience” communion but they can sit on their pews and pass the communion plates across – lol]. I bet they had song leaders back then too- no instruments of music though because Psalms changed to a capella ;-)

I have a feeling the early church were more like family. They served one another in love on a daily basis, not just for a routine of worship events that occurs a few hours each Sunday. The “called out” of Christ is not a group of people who meet on Sunday for a “worship service”.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#91
May 1, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure it’s the same, Dave ;) I just know the early church meet on pews, looking towards a stage, following a routine of “worship”, followed by the invitation song. I’m pretty certain they had “men” walking down the “isles” with Welches grape drink and wafers on pretty silver platters.[women are not allowed to walk down the “church isles” and give the “audience” communion but they can sit on their pews and pass the communion plates across – lol]. I bet they had song leaders back then too- no instruments of music though because Psalms changed to a capella ;-)
I have a feeling the early church were more like family. They served one another in love on a daily basis, not just for a routine of worship events that occurs a few hours each Sunday. The “called out” of Christ is not a group of people who meet on Sunday for a “worship service”.
This is how the early Christians worshiped.

St Justin Martyr’s Letter to the Pagan Emperor Antoninus Pius (c. AD 155)

In this letter St Justin explains the worship of the Christians.

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits. When the reader has finished, he who presides over those
gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate those beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves... and for all others, wherever they may be... Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: Amen. When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the eucharisted bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#92
May 1, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure it’s the same, Dave ;) I just know the early church meet on pews, looking towards a stage, following a routine of “worship”, followed by the invitation song. I’m pretty certain they had “men” walking down the “isles” with Welches grape drink and wafers on pretty silver platters.[women are not allowed to walk down the “church isles” and give the “audience” communion but they can sit on their pews and pass the communion plates across – lol]. I bet they had song leaders back then too- no instruments of music though because Psalms changed to a capella ;-)
I have a feeling the early church were more like family. They served one another in love on a daily basis, not just for a routine of worship events that occurs a few hours each Sunday. The “called out” of Christ is not a group of people who meet on Sunday for a “worship service”.
Absolutely agree. We are of the same mind on these ideas. I am finding that there are other people besides me that feels the same way, and it is nice. My good friend at work is a kindred spirit on these ideas as well. I think a small group of people totally committed and sold out for Jesus, invested in each other and those outside of Christ, are a great force for good. Better than a thousand strangers who see each other for an hour every Sunday and aren't invested.

I have to get a facebook account going. Be great to know others who believe and go through the same things. Feels like I'm on an island sometimes besides a couple of you guys on here.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#93
May 1, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
This is how the early Christians worshiped.
St Justin Martyr’s Letter to the Pagan Emperor Antoninus Pius (c. AD 155)
In this letter St Justin explains the worship of the Christians.
On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits. When the reader has finished, he who presides over those
gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate those beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves... and for all others, wherever they may be... Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: Amen. When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the eucharisted bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =2J_bamuM_4kXX
Mike, out of curiosity, what was it that made you leave the Baptist church and join catholicism? Does all of the division in the religious world have anything to do with it?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#94
May 1, 2013
 
One last thing tonight-where did Mark go?``

Since: Jul 11

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#95
May 2, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
One last thing tonight-where did Mark go?``
Trust me, he is still "reading" the comments on here.
mopman

United States

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#96
May 2, 2013
 
Turn down that kitchen stove and Mark will come back hehe.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#97
May 2, 2013
 

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Dave P wrote:
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Mike, out of curiosity, what was it that made you leave the Baptist church and join Catholicism? Does all of the division in the religious world have anything to do with it?
Thanks for asking. It started as a teenager. I went to a small country Southern Baptist Church. Since a child I would listen and believe this grown up man who was the preacher knew the truth. I thought that every preacher said the same things. Then as I grew older, preachers would come for revival, preach on the same bible verses and say something different. I started watching preachers on TV and they said the Truth was something else. I went to a Billy Graham crusade and made the altar call, with not altar, said the sinners prayer which I believed already, and thought that would do it. Nothing changed in me.

I went off the college and like many stopped going to Church. I minored in History and took the basic history of the Western Civilization which included Christianity.

That started my curiosity about why the reformation started and what was the true Church started by Jesus. I took a course on the Religions of the World and the history of Christianity, all of these in a secular college with professors who were Jews, Christians and atheists.

It was finally the reading of the early Church Fathers that solidified to me that the Church Jesus started was the Catholic Church and they worship the same way today as they did in the 1st centuries.

It had the 4 Marks of the True Church. One, Holy , Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I was blown away that every Catholic Church in the world reads together the same verses of the Bible together.

It took me a long while to come to grips with this as I am still the only Catholic on both sides of my family. I did not want to be Catholic, but if I wanted the fullness of the truth , I knew I needed to be there.

I started attending Mass in College and it was exactly like the Church Fathers wrote about.

I finally joined and that was a great day when I actually received the real body and real blood of Jesus. It was the beginning of the ultimate personal relationship with Jesus.

My biggest issue was Mary. But the Catholic Church DOES NOT require any Catholic to have a devotion to Mary.

Over the Years, I have come to understand the importance of Mary in the History of Christianity.

What really brought it home to me is when I read this one day.

If you would tell your wife, you know I have come to love your Mother so much since I met you. Would that take away the love for your wife? No, That would greatly improve the relationship with your wife.

We believe when you die here on Earth , you are alive in heaven. Mary is alive and still is Jesus' Mother. She still has his ear as all of us in Christ do, but dont you think he might listen to his Mother a little more.

There is a 38 volume of the writings of the Early Church Father. It is not a commentary. It is just the English translation of all the writings that was still preserved.

The only possible way you cannot be a Catholic if you read these writings is to say the Church became apostate. To say that, you to believe that Jesus lied when he said his Church would not fail.

So, the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura and History brought me home to Rome.

Peace be with you.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#98
May 2, 2013
 

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Ok Mike, I can understand that. Thanks for the testimony. My journey is similar just with different outcomes. I believe every person must come to grips with his own walk with God.

However I do not see how you can think of the catholic church as pure and without fault. You see, the core of every man is rooted in sin and if you will honestly look around you it permeates the catholic church just as much as it did when you were a baptist.

I give the catholics credit for canonizing our bible as well as other good things.

You may now be thinking that the catholic church is the only true church and that makes you as bad as Heath and Johnny.

Most of the catholics I know will only offer minimal fellowship with me. They are taught that they are better than anyone else and closer to God. Catholicism is very much a ritualistic church. I will probably differ with some here in that I believe there are true christians in the catholic church but it is not a place where I want to hang my hat.

My guess is that you believe that you are the only true christian on these threads-right? That is always a bad place to begin a teaching ministry because you have already shut the door on everyone.
Mark

Danville, VA

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#99
May 2, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
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What I am affirming is that the terminology of "worship service" is the language of Ashdod-not scriptural. Where do we read anywhere that we assemble to have a worship service? The passages I mentioned are not speaking of things occurring on Sundays-they are things occurring in the everyday walk of the Christian. I see no scriptures in the NT where the imperative verb, a command to sing, is used. I also affirm that "5 acts" of worship in the new temple is unscriptural as well. We do worship the Lord on Sundays-but we also worship Him every day of our lives, or we should be. There are things to go on during our assemblies-and they must be done with the right frame of mind and attitude.
Forget about what you think I am trying to do. Instead of tearing down someone's ideas, let yours see the light of day. Tell us how to do it. Address my statement you quoted. Prove it wrong if possible.
*Is Ephesians and Colossians dealing with the "worship service"?
*Is there an imperative in the original language commanding us to sing?
*What is worship, when do we do it?
Mark, I've been on Topix for quite a while now. I've answered these questions before. Your turn.
Are you affirming that the church is authorized to take up a collection on the second, third, forth, fifth, sixth & seventh day of the week as well as the first?

Also, are you affirming that the church is authorized to take the Lord's supper on the second, third, forth, fifth, sixth & seventh day of the week as well as the first?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#100
May 2, 2013
 

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Mark wrote:
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Are you affirming that the church is authorized to take up a collection on the second, third, forth, fifth, sixth & seventh day of the week as well as the first?
Also, are you affirming that the church is authorized to take the Lord's supper on the second, third, forth, fifth, sixth & seventh day of the week as well as the first?
I've got other questions on the table for you to answer Mark.
But I'll give you a couple of quick answers here. But don't ignore my previous questions.
*The church "authorized" to take up a collection on the first day of the week? Yes. Would they be in error if they got together every day, and people gave offerings every day if they saw fit? I don't believe so. Why don't we follow THAT pattern anymore?
*Did the first century church give offerings on the first day of every week from Pentecost in Acts 2 throughout history? Or did it start with the offerings for the needy saints at Jerusalem?
*In my opinion, the church only observed the Lords Supper on Sunday; and their are reasons for that. It was the day of assembly,the Lord arose on Sunday, the church was born on Sunday, OT typology backs up a once a week observance. We read of them coming together every day, but not observing communion every day. To me, the Lords Supper is an event limited to the church assembly; the rest of the things we do in the assembly can be done anywhere at any time, not limited to Sunday.
*If we are "following the pattern", why don't we have the love feasts anymore? "History" teaches that the love feasts didn't end until the close of the second century.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#101
May 2, 2013
 

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Yes Mike thank you. I was not asking you for the purpose of destroying your reasons.

There are some coc who follow a pattern of using scriptures provided in a coc magazine printed here, Weekly Standard materials. So in some circles the same Bible verses are used in many congregations every Sunday. It actually appears you are more dedicated to "finding the original pattern" than many who claim to want to do so.

Your last point is exactly what I believe-"The only possible way you cannot be a Catholic if you read these writings is to say the Church became apostate. To say that, you to believe that Jesus lied when he said his Church would not fail."

I do believe the Catholic church is an apostate church. I don't believe Jesus lied, and His church didn't fail. I just don't believe the RCC is His church.

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