Nicodemus ask, "How can this be"
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#41 Feb 2, 2013
nobody wrote:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
Why is there any discussion about what Nicodemus meant? His response leaves no doubt his understanding is of the womb. Jesus does not correct him but chastises him(about being a teacher and the scriptures then goes on to explain he must be born from above.
Yes Nicodemus was thinking of the earthly womb, but Jesus was not. Being born from the womb has nothing to do with being born from above. And He spends the next few verses correcting him.
nobody

Morehead, KY

#42 Feb 2, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes Nicodemus was thinking of the earthly womb, but Jesus was not. Being born from the womb has nothing to do with being born from above. And He spends the next few verses correcting him.
Born of water was the womb and was the understanding of Nicodemus which Jesus never corrected, Born of the Spirit from above was the knowledge Nicodemus lacked and Jesus went on to explain. John explains that in more detail later.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
nobody

Morehead, KY

#43 Feb 2, 2013
nobody wrote:
<quoted text> Born of water was the womb and was the understanding of Nicodemus which Jesus never corrected, Born of the Spirit from above was the knowledge Nicodemus lacked and Jesus went on to explain. John explains that in more detail later.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
That was not said very well. Nicodemus understood "born again" to be the same as the first birth which by the understanding Nicodemus had, was the womb. Jesus never corrected the understanding of the first birth by Nicodemus but elaborated that you must be born of the water and the Spirit. He confirmed that born of water was the womb I believe. At the same time I believe he explains the second birth is a Spiritual birth.

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
nobody

Morehead, KY

#44 Feb 2, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes Nicodemus was thinking of the earthly womb, but Jesus was not. Being born from the womb has nothing to do with being born from above. And He spends the next few verses correcting him.
How do you like that snow? I have put it off long enough . I have to drudge out there. After I get out there the beauty overcomes the cold and I am always glad I did. Just that first step out in the cold,lol.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#45 Feb 2, 2013
nobody wrote:
<quoted text>How do you like that snow? I have put it off long enough . I have to drudge out there. After I get out there the beauty overcomes the cold and I am always glad I did. Just that first step out in the cold,lol.
Yeah, I agree. I like to see it snow, just hate driving in it. Least I don't have to go out today. Bad thing though, no services tomorrow.:(
Full Circle

Palmyra, VA

#46 Feb 2, 2013
calvin wrote:
James 1:18 - In the exercise of HIS WILL He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
The Greek word here is the same which in James 1:15 is rendered "bringeth forth," - "sin bringeth forth death." The word is used here in contrast with that, and the object is to refer to a different kind of production, or bringing forth, under the agency of sin, and the agency of God. The meaning here is, that we owe the beginning of our spiritual life to God.
John 1:13 - Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. This is so plain yet some still desire to proclaim they assist God in their salvation.
John 3, Jesus speaks of a rebirth from ABOVE, not a birth of water baptism ON EARTH but a Spiritual birth from God. The Greek word for BORN AGAIN means FROM ABOVE not birthed from earthy water. Titus 3:5 also speaks of this Godly work of regeneration. Notice from John 3 that this occurs IN HEAVEN not on earth. The new birth is from ABOVE and the place where God regenerates the sinner.
There are two sides to this coin. It may be true that God is over our salvation but without a part from us we would be lost. This dont take away from God in salvation. There are great scriptures that show God controlling the outcome while at the same time man is given a choice to make. I think both are true. God controls salvation but we still make a decision.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#47 Feb 2, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
<quoted text>
There are two sides to this coin. It may be true that God is over our salvation but without a part from us we would be lost. This dont take away from God in salvation. There are great scriptures that show God controlling the outcome while at the same time man is given a choice to make. I think both are true. God controls salvation but we still make a decision.
It is hard for me to imagine that God would save someone who does not want anything to do with God. But, Jonah ran from God and God saved him anyway.
Full Circle

Palmyra, VA

#48 Feb 2, 2013
Faith comes through hearing the word. That may start with God but it ends with us making a choose for the gift of salvation. That chose has conditions, too.

RockyMountChurchOfChrist
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#49 Feb 3, 2013
Full Circle wrote:
Faith comes through hearing the word. That may start with God but it ends with us making a choose for the gift of salvation. That chose has conditions, too.
RockyMountChurchOfChrist
Could you list those conditions please and don't just stop with the five you believe are requirements. If we are going to choose works as conditions then there are many more that you are leaving out.

I googled "list new testament commands" and here is what I found. Don't know anything about the source and don't care, but I think if our salvation depends on us getting it right, then you guys have a lot more work to do to keep your salvation. You see some of you think that the OT law is no longer in force but that the new testament law has replaced it. So, dig in your heels, you guys have an up hill battle ahead:)
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#50 Feb 3, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Could you list those conditions please and don't just stop with the five you believe are requirements. If we are going to choose works as conditions then there are many more that you are leaving out.
I googled "list new testament commands" and here is what I found. Don't know anything about the source and don't care, but I think if our salvation depends on us getting it right, then you guys have a lot more work to do to keep your salvation. You see some of you think that the OT law is no longer in force but that the new testament law has replaced it. So, dig in your heels, you guys have an up hill battle ahead:)
First of all, some of those commands are what's necessary in order to become Christians. And then others are what will be needed in order to remain one. But the kicker is, after we become Christians, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins if we ask Him to. We don't have to be "perfect", although that is the goal we should all strive for-and be thankful we have someone to pick us up when we don't make it. As far as getting it all right, I don't recall anyone saying that. Once again, I'll leave that to your selective hearing.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#51 Feb 3, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all, some of those commands are what's necessary in order to become Christians. And then others are what will be needed in order to remain one. But the kicker is, after we become Christians, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins if we ask Him to. We don't have to be "perfect", although that is the goal we should all strive for-and be thankful we have someone to pick us up when we don't make it. As far as getting it all right, I don't recall anyone saying that. Once again, I'll leave that to your selective hearing.
You said: As far as getting it all right, I don't recall anyone saying that. Or course you have, it is the reason you reject me as a brother, because even though I have obeyed in water baptism, you and others claim i did not get the belief part right among other things.

Apparently I forgot to add this link.

http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-tes...

Take a look of this list of commands and tell me if you keep all of them or maybe you were aware that they exist. Now the point is this: If you are unaware that you have failed in some of these then according to the legal system you abide in-that means you cannot be forgiven unless you actually ask for forgiveness.

Now i know that we do not have be perfect but you are claiming that there is one perfect way to do water baptism. I am saying that if you are going to use perfection in your approach to salvation then you already have adopted human perfection/performance in your pursuit of eternal life.

For me, I believe that we are saved entirely by grace without works of any kind. So I no longer depend on a performance system-and I don't doctor it up or mix law with grace. Does that mean that I feel like I can sin all I want, no absolutely not. In fact our message this morning was on faith fulness. Just like I told Randy who has said he in not a Christian and has not been water baptized: "Randy if you believe that water baptism is for the remission of sins-then just go do it." I never try to keep anyone from obeying, but we must understand that this is not the basis of regeneration. As you well know, you cannot prove that obeying the gospel equals water baptism because water baptism is not the gospel!
New Guy

United States

#52 Feb 3, 2013
Too much for one post. First of all, if you recall, I said that the reason YOU were baptized is between you and God. It's your beliefs now that concern me. Your beliefs now I do not believe to be scriptural, and I do not believe that anyone can be put into Christ following the evangelical belief system. If a person's beliefs don't put them in Christ, then their beliefs are useless.

I wonder why so many people have such a problem with baptism, and what must be understood for it to be valid. It should not be that hard, especially since Peter and Paul tell us exactly why we should be and need to be baptized. Acts is very clear. Yet, for as clear as Acts is, we then should be accepting of those who do things for reasons OTHER than what God has specified? Does God accept those who do things for reasons other than He dictated? God is specific on many things. Baptism is one.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#53 Feb 3, 2013
Another issue you have seems to be confusing the perfect law of liberty or the law of Christ, with the law of Moses. You automatically assume anytime you see the words law, or see a command, then it necessarily becomes "lawkeeping" and becomes "our works of righteousness" and thus it cannot be required of us, since after all we are simply saved by grace. In this you do greatly err.

If a Christian sins, how do they obtain forgiveness for that sin? Do they repent and ask for forgiveness? Or are those sins just automatically covered?

Regeneration is being born of the water and the Spirit. Paul called it the lager of regeneration. Peter says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey God. Paul says without the Spirit a person does not belong to Him. You are absolutely wrong if you believe obedience has nothing to do with regeneration.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#54 Feb 3, 2013
Should be laver of regeneration, not lager.
nobody

Morehead, KY

#55 Feb 3, 2013
New Guy wrote:
I wonder why so many people have such a problem with baptism, and what must be understood for it to be valid. It should not be that hard, especially since Peter and Paul tell us exactly why we should be and need to be baptized. Acts is very clear. Yet, for as clear as Acts is, we then should be accepting of those who do things for reasons OTHER than what God has specified? Does God accept those who do things for reasons other than He dictated? God is specific on many things. Baptism is one.
I don't believe there are two more specific verses in the bible that answer the question of what is needed to believe before baptism. It reflects that you must be a born again believer as 1John 5:1 declares "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."

3ACTS 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Acts 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
nobody

Morehead, KY

#56 Feb 3, 2013
I am a disaster waiting to happen behind a keyboard. I tried to backspace the three and posted before I rearranged my thoughts.

I don't believe there are two more specific verses in the bible that answer the question of what is needed to believe before baptism.

ACTS 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Acts 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]


It reflects that you must be a born again believer as 1John 5:1 declares "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#57 Feb 3, 2013
nobody wrote:
I am a disaster waiting to happen behind a keyboard. I tried to backspace the three and posted before I rearranged my thoughts.
I don't believe there are two more specific verses in the bible that answer the question of what is needed to believe before baptism.
ACTS 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Acts 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
It reflects that you must be a born again believer as 1John 5:1 declares "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."
Nobody, I do not disagree with those two verses you quoted. But what about what Peter told the crowd at Pentecost? That was the birth of the. Church. I believe what Peter told that crowd was important. As was what Ananias told Saul, and what Paul told all the groups that he talked to. Why can't we take all of these things, put them together, and come up with the truth? Why just pick one or two things?

Ps- your typing skills aren't that bad. At least you use complete sentences, and pretty good English skills. Many people on Topix don't have those things down yet.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#58 Feb 3, 2013
New Guy wrote:
Too much for one post. First of all, if you recall, I said that the reason YOU were baptized is between you and God. It's your beliefs now that concern me. Your beliefs now I do not believe to be scriptural, and I do not believe that anyone can be put into Christ following the evangelical belief system. If a person's beliefs don't put them in Christ, then their beliefs are useless.
I wonder why so many people have such a problem with baptism, and what must be understood for it to be valid. It should not be that hard, especially since Peter and Paul tell us exactly why we should be and need to be baptized. Acts is very clear. Yet, for as clear as Acts is, we then should be accepting of those who do things for reasons OTHER than what God has specified? Does God accept those who do things for reasons other than He dictated? God is specific on many things. Baptism is one.
You are now making it perfectly clear that you believe i am not a christian nor any other Evangelical, which includes the majority of Christians in America. But at the same time you are alright with Randy who has not been water baptized. Do you see your prejudice yet? I do not know any one in the evangelical churches who have a problem with water baptism-we just obey it and get on with life. We have a problem with other churches who try to supplant Spirit baptism with water baptism. The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. Why would we want to save the flesh?
nobody

Morehead, KY

#59 Feb 3, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Nobody, I do not disagree with those two verses you quoted. But what about what Peter told the crowd at Pentecost? That was the birth of the. Church. I believe what Peter told that crowd was important. As was what Ananias told Saul, and what Paul told all the groups that he talked to. Why can't we take all of these things, put them together, and come up with the truth? Why just pick one or two things?
I don't disagree with those verses. I do not believe they contradict Chapter 8, but they do not say anything about requiring a particular belief before baptizing specifically as does Acts chapter 8. I see the requirements of Acts 8 as being the same in Acts 2:36 (believing Jesus is the Christ) which pierced their hearts and the baptizing of only believers in Acts 2:41 (those who had received his word)

I do not see a belief requirement prior to baptism in the account of Saul and Ananias. In Acts 19 Saul received the Holy Spirit and regained his sight before baptism. It does not say it specifically but I take it that he believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God prior to baptism. In the Acts 22:14 account Saul is told(The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One) before baptism in verse 16. I take "See the Righteous One" as believing Jesus is the Son of God.

In Acts 10 I do not see a belief requirement spelled out but Jesus was preached as the Christ, the Son of God prior to the Holy Spirit coming on Cornelius, who was later baptized. It appears to be the same pattern, that is more detailed in Acts 8(believe Jesus is the Son of God and then you may be baptized). I do see a pattern.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#60 Feb 3, 2013
Nobody, we are in much agreement here then. Yes belief is a prior requirement. Confession of the Son of God is also shown to be a prior requirement. I guess where I am going then is that I believe repentance is necessary because of Acts 2:38, and I also see that Peter said it was for remission of sins. Ananias told Saul it was to wash away his sins. I believe those are important facts too.

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