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Since: Jul 11

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#161
May 17, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
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You are right I had Methodist on my mind. I should have checked first. I am getting old.
You must have overlooked this question from yesterday. You contend that the oral teaching of Jesus Christ handed down to his apostles, who in turn handed it down to their disciples, in turn to the RCC via Popes and the Church. However, the RCC teachings can't be found taught in the Bible.

Question: if you didn’t have the so-called "Historical paths", where would you get sacred tradition?
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#162
May 17, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
You must have overlooked this question from yesterday. You contend that the oral teaching of Jesus Christ handed down to his apostles, who in turn handed it down to their disciples, in turn to the RCC via Popes and the Church. However, the RCC teachings can't be found taught in the Bible.
Question: if you didn’t have the so-called "Historical paths", where would you get sacred tradition?
There is nothing that the CC teaches that the Bible contradicts. Remember the CC created the Bible. Why would they create something that contradicted what they taught.
All new revelation ended with the death of Peter. All you have to do is research what the early Church taught in the areas of Faith on morals and that came from the Apostles. That is the "Path"
The Apostles created the Church for Jesus and deposited all the Truth in the Church before they died. They were there and could clarify anything not understood.
And Jesus said he would protect it from all evil. And he has. From sinners from within, from invading armies, and from the Protesters.

Since: Jul 11

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#163
May 17, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing that the CC teaches that the Bible contradicts. Remember the CC created the Bible. Why would they create something that contradicted what they taught.
All new revelation ended with the death of Peter. All you have to do is research what the early Church taught in the areas of Faith on morals and that came from the Apostles. That is the "Path"
The Apostles created the Church for Jesus and deposited all the Truth in the Church before they died. They were there and could clarify anything not understood.
And Jesus said he would protect it from all evil. And he has. From sinners from within, from invading armies, and from the Protesters.
Mike, the RCC teaches quite a few things that cannot be backed with Scripture. The “path” IS the Bible- what IT teaches. Before the Bible, there wasn’t just the RCC teaching things that would later NOT be found in Scripture. I find it very odd that the revealed/inspired Word from God speaks nothing of some of the teachings within the RCC.

Yes, I’ve read Johns debates/discussions I receive via email. In fact, he has discussed things with the coc. How can one debate somebody using history that is NOT inspired but wrote from men uninspired. The ONLY “inspired” writings are from the revealed Word from God- our Bibles.

You seem to imply that “sacred tradition” came from the Apostles, yet they not once mention this in the Bible. That seems odd. No Pope in the Bible, no praying to the Saints, no worshipping Mary, no Transubstantiation, etc. This is merely Catholic Culture/tradition.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

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#164
May 17, 2013
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Mike, the RCC teaches quite a few things that cannot be backed with Scripture. The “path” IS the Bible- what IT teaches. Before the Bible, there wasn’t just the RCC teaching things that would later NOT be found in Scripture. I find it very odd that the revealed/inspired Word from God speaks nothing of some of the teachings within the RCC.
Yes, I’ve read Johns debates/discussions I receive via email. In fact, he has discussed things with the coc. How can one debate somebody using history that is NOT inspired but wrote from men uninspired. The ONLY “inspired” writings are from the revealed Word from God- our Bibles.
You seem to imply that “sacred tradition” came from the Apostles, yet they not once mention this in the Bible. That seems odd. No Pope in the Bible, no praying to the Saints, no worshipping Mary, no Transubstantiation, etc. This is merely Catholic Culture/tradition.
That is because all of it was not written down or the manuscripts was lost. Only about 1/2 of the Apostles wrote anything that could be found. Did they teach? Yes. Did they only teach what John, Peter, Luke, Mark, Paul, and Matthew wrote down. No.

You can read the NT in a 1/2 day. Jesus taught the apostles for 3 years. Everything was not written down. Even the Bible says that.

The Bible is a Catholic Tradition with a big T Jesus or the Apostles said nothing about a Bible or writing anything. They talked about the OT scripture a lot, but there is not 1 prophecy or hint of a prophecy that there would be a book one day in which all Truth will be located.

If you care to read the history of Bible I encourage you to do so.

The Church decided a Bible was needed for at least these 2 reasons. Number one was that hundreds of scriptures were being read in the Churches by the 4th Century. The Church,in her wisdom, decided that something had to be done. It had to be determined what scriptures were the inspired and inerrant written word of God. The OT was pretty much a done deal. The ex Jews knew what they were.(Luther disagreed with them in 1500 and threw 6 books of sacred scripture in the garbage)

The 2nd reason was Catholics were threatened with their life if they had scriptures in their possession. Those holy enough to die for their beliefs had to know which one of those scriptures were truly the written words of God and worth dying for.

Holy Men of the Catholic Church, led by the HS, in 382 AD, 350 years after Jesus died, voted 26 books into the NT and declared them inspired. About 6 that are in there almost did not make and about 6 or 7 that didnt almost did. Would you care to know which ones? There was much debate like we are doing here. But the Council voted and the Pope approved and the Bible is history.

Every Christian since then has accepted that these 26 Books are truly the written words of God. You have accepted a "Traditon" of the Catholic Church


I would love to tell you what happened for the next 1100 years once it was approved. There was no printing press, how copies were made and how it was protected?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#165
May 17, 2013
 
The same books were accepted as received by the author/immediate associate in the Eastern Church. They have the compiled manuscript as received - oldest copy about 160 AD - more than a hundred years ahead of the CC...

aent.org

Since: Mar 13

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#166
May 17, 2013
 
Bingo! Richard.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#167
May 17, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
The same books were accepted as received by the author/immediate associate in the Eastern Church. They have the compiled manuscript as received - oldest copy about 160 AD - more than a hundred years ahead of the CC...
aent.org
You are wrong on your history even though it is amusing because most COCs stay away from history more than more Protestants. You are trying to prove one Catholic Church wrong by using another Catholic church and in the area of faith and morals they believe almost the exact same thing. They dont believe in SS either.

It took the Eastern Church many more centuries to come up with a canon than the RC. Why, lack of Authority after the Schism. In fact one Eastern Church had a revision in the not too distant past.

Eastern canons

The eastern churches had, in general, a weaker feeling than those in the west for the necessity of making a sharp delineation with regard to the canon. It was more conscious of the gradation of spiritual quality among the books that it accepted (e.g. the classification of Eusebius, see also Antilegomena) and was less often disposed to assert that the books which it rejected possessed no spiritual quality at all. For example, the Trullan Synod of 691-692, which was rejected by Pope Constantine (see also Pentarchy), endorsed the following lists of canonical writings: the Apostolic Canons (c. 385), the Synod of Laodicea (c. 363), the Third Synod of Carthage (c. 397), and the 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367). And yet, these lists do not agree. Similarly, the New Testament canons of the national churches of Syria, Armenia, Georgia, Egypt (The Coptic Church), and Ethiopia all have minor differences.[27] The Revelation of John is one of the most uncertain books; it was not translated into Georgian until the 10th century, and it has never been included in the official lectionary of the Greek Church, whether Byzantine or modern/
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#168
May 18, 2013
 

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You're demonstrating my point, whether you realize it or not. On one hand we have the received writings of the apostles, and on the other we have groups of men that were getting together to exercise authority as the Scribes, Pharisees and Priests did in the days Jesus walked the earth.

Jesus came to strip back the veils men had put on the words of God to show the grace and truth God had given since the beginning, and then to give men the fullness of the grace and truth of God.

The Netzarim at least preserved their testimony as received, just as those of Israel gave us the OT.

The real issue resides in the fact that knowing the truth resides in exactly what Jesus said it did, but few seem willing to grasp the fact in actuality.

What councils of men come up with has only obscured the truth God gave. When I said 'CC', I was referring to the "RCC".'Catholic' Church is nothing to me, as the only true 'Church' is made up of those whose citizenship is in heaven and awaiting the kingdom of God and the return of their Redeemer, King and High Priest.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#169
May 18, 2013
 

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Barnsweb wrote:
You're demonstrating my point, whether you realize it or not. On one hand we have the received writings of the apostles, and on the other we have groups of men that were getting together to exercise authority as the Scribes, Pharisees and Priests did in the days Jesus walked the earth.
Jesus came to strip back the veils men had put on the words of God to show the grace and truth God had given since the beginning, and then to give men the fullness of the grace and truth of God.
The Netzarim at least preserved their testimony as received, just as those of Israel gave us the OT.
The real issue resides in the fact that knowing the truth resides in exactly what Jesus said it did, but few seem willing to grasp the fact in actuality.
What councils of men come up with has only obscured the truth God gave. When I said 'CC', I was referring to the "RCC".'Catholic' Church is nothing to me, as the only true 'Church' is made up of those whose citizenship is in heaven and awaiting the kingdom of God and the return of their Redeemer, King and High Priest.
The CC is nothing to you but without the CC you would have no agreed on NT Canon of the Bible. Without the CC, there would be thousands of canons at there just like Churches and salvation beliefs

Jesus created 1 Church. He emphasized that hanging on the Cross barely able to breath and talk. He prayed for you and I to be as one. We were one for 1500 years.

The heretical protesters spit in the face of Jesus on the cross in the 1500s.

Please show me where Jesus or any Apostle prophesied a book that would hold all Truth.

Think about the fact that 90% of the people could not read at the time of Jesus. Could that be why Jesus left us a Church with the truth and not a book?

The Church existed 350 years without a Bible, almost twice as long as the COC has existed.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#170
May 18, 2013
 
I am beginning to see why so many people refuse to believe in God? If knowing the truth is this difficult why bother. That is exactly the way all one true churches come across-as though I have no chance to go to be with the Lord without them.

"He has then established a Supreme Court, a Supreme Judge in the Church of the Living God. " Catholic Father Damen, author of One True Church

"The Church is the ground and the pillar of the truth, and the moment you take away the authority of the Church of God you induce all kinds of errors and blasphemous doctrines. Do we not see it?" Catholic Father Damen

"The Catholic has divine faith, and why? Because the Catholic says:'I believe in such and such a thing.' Why?'Because the Church teaches me so.' And why do you believe the Church?'Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church, and God has threatened me with damnation if I do not believe the Church....So then, when I believe what the Church teaches I believe what God teaches." Catholic FAther Damen

Don't worry if you believe yours is the one true church this article includes you...

http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
Dave P

Lexington, KY

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#171
May 18, 2013
 
The heretical protesters spit in the face of Jesus on the cross in the 1500s.

And yet these "heretical protesters" who "spit in the face of Jesus" are all ok with the RCC so long as they have been baptized, but again cannot take the "sacraments"?

It was the religious experts, the smart people who put Christ on the cross in the first place, along with our sin. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#172
May 18, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
The CC is nothing to you but without the CC you would have no agreed on NT Canon of the Bible. Without the CC, there would be thousands of canons at there just like Churches and salvation beliefs
Jesus created 1 Church. He emphasized that hanging on the Cross barely able to breath and talk. He prayed for you and I to be as one. We were one for 1500 years.
The heretical protesters spit in the face of Jesus on the cross in the 1500s.
Please show me where Jesus or any Apostle prophesied a book that would hold all Truth.
Think about the fact that 90% of the people could not read at the time of Jesus. Could that be why Jesus left us a Church with the truth and not a book?
The Church existed 350 years without a Bible, almost twice as long as the COC has existed.
The Church had a Bible from the start, it didn't have to wait 350 years for the RCC to say it had a Bible because they said so. You're sounding somewhat like a spiritual Democrat or Socialist, there has been so much revision of the actual history in the account you are all too willing to accept without hearing out other accounts of history - there is more than one telling of Church history, and the RCC doesn't hold the world captive to its Popes and traditions any more, and hasn't for some time.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#173
May 18, 2013
 

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Barnsweb:

You have made a statement that you can't hide behind the heretical doctrine of SS by.

Back it up with facts. I know you can't because either you don't have a clue how the Bible was created or you won't

Please give me dates, the men involved, what scriptures being debated over.

Or maybe you think that all the apostles gave their notes to John and when John was finished with Revelation he went to Kinkos and had them printed.

Billions watched the new Pope being elected. Not relevant?

It is the Protestants who are not relevant. They went from 70% of the population to under 50% in 50 years. There are no Protestants on the Supreme Court for the first time in History. It was a Prot court that gave abortion on demand, so thats not a bad thing.

There was only 1 pretend protestant in the last presidential election.

Protestantism have sola scriptural themselves to non relevance in the public square.

Every world leader will visit the Pope. Not relevant?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#174
May 18, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
I am beginning to see why so many people refuse to believe in God? If knowing the truth is this difficult why bother. That is exactly the way all one true churches come across-as though I have no chance to go to be with the Lord without them.
"He has then established a Supreme Court, a Supreme Judge in the Church of the Living God. " Catholic Father Damen, author of One True Church
"The Church is the ground and the pillar of the truth, and the moment you take away the authority of the Church of God you induce all kinds of errors and blasphemous doctrines. Do we not see it?" Catholic Father Damen
"The Catholic has divine faith, and why? Because the Catholic says:'I believe in such and such a thing.' Why?'Because the Church teaches me so.' And why do you believe the Church?'Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church, and God has threatened me with damnation if I do not believe the Church....So then, when I believe what the Church teaches I believe what God teaches." Catholic FAther Damen
Don't worry if you believe yours is the one true church this article includes you...
http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
The very core of Protestantism is believe what you want. Find a Church that matches your beliefs and join that one. If you dislike a preacher that comes in , leave and join another or start a new one.

That is why people don't believe in God. They are look at Christian communities all reading the same Bible and all believing something different. And, whenever the people in the pews want something changed they change it. They drop out of the loosely held affiliation of their Churches and start a new one or become independent.

Look at the verse , may they all be in us so that the world may
believe that you have sent me. be in us, his Church.

40,000 Churches are not in us. The world cannot know because of the disunity.

John 17:
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

We were one for 1500 years. But we are still here. Come home. Be in us so the world can believe you have sent him.



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Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#175
May 18, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
The heretical protesters spit in the face of Jesus on the cross in the 1500s.
And yet these "heretical protesters" who "spit in the face of Jesus" are all ok with the RCC so long as they have been baptized, but again cannot take the "sacraments"?
It was the religious experts, the smart people who put Christ on the cross in the first place, along with our sin. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
No those protesters were considered heretical and anathema. The Church does not hold the sins of your "fathers" against you. You and I could not help that we were born outside the Church.

The Church follows the Apostles' teachings. Are you calling them religious experts? I guess they became experts at Pentecost
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#176
May 18, 2013
 
Mike Peterson wrote:
Barnsweb:
You have made a statement that you can't hide behind the heretical doctrine of SS by.
Back it up with facts. I know you can't because either you don't have a clue how the Bible was created or you won't
Please give me dates, the men involved, what scriptures being debated over.
Or maybe you think that all the apostles gave their notes to John and when John was finished with Revelation he went to Kinkos and had them printed.
Billions watched the new Pope being elected. Not relevant?
It is the Protestants who are not relevant. They went from 70% of the population to under 50% in 50 years. There are no Protestants on the Supreme Court for the first time in History. It was a Prot court that gave abortion on demand, so thats not a bad thing.
There was only 1 pretend protestant in the last presidential election.
Protestantism have sola scriptural themselves to non relevance in the public square.
Every world leader will visit the Pope. Not relevant?
Did you ever post some relevant Pope directives yet? Maybe I missed them?

RCC, as LDS, counts membership quite loosely.

Numbers are not what matters, as the latter days will be noted by only a minority being able to endure sound doctrine - others - the majority, will seek people to tell them what they want to hear:-)

off to my first Pentecost celebration!:-)
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#177
May 18, 2013
 
Look at what Jesus said about His teachings, see the introduction, see 'the list'.

onediscipletoanother.org

God said:'Hear Him'. His words are recorded for our faith and trust in believing the truth.
Bobby

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#178
May 18, 2013
 

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Bobby wrote:
I am beginning to see why so many people refuse to believe in God? If knowing the truth is this difficult why bother. That is exactly the way all one true churches come across-as though I have no chance to go to be with the Lord without them.
"He has then established a Supreme Court, a Supreme Judge in the Church of the Living God. " Catholic Father Damen, author of One True Church
"The Church is the ground and the pillar of the truth, and the moment you take away the authority of the Church of God you induce all kinds of errors and blasphemous doctrines. Do we not see it?" Catholic Father Damen
"The Catholic has divine faith, and why? Because the Catholic says:'I believe in such and such a thing.' Why?'Because the Church teaches me so.' And why do you believe the Church?'Because God has commanded me to believe the teaching of the Church, and God has threatened me with damnation if I do not believe the Church....So then, when I believe what the Church teaches I believe what God teaches." Catholic FAther Damen
Don't worry if you believe yours is the one true church this article includes you...
http://www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm
Catholic means universal but you will not allow for a universal church it must be yours or the hiway. I think you are an enemy of the true church. For many years I have heard talk and read sites calling the cc the mother of harlots and I said to myself that cannot be true. You are working hard to change my mind. The more I learn about catholism the less I am inclined to consider it.

The Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix, petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

I can not find it anywhere in scripture...
Dave P

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#179
May 18, 2013
 
Agree Bobby. Have much more on this the next few days.

Rule #1 of "Evangelizing by the one TRUE churches" must be to alienate as many of the people you are trying to convert as possible. Our coc boys here do it very well. The RCC appears to be good at it as well.

Bringing the truth of beliefs out into the spotlight has a way of opening our eyes doesn't it?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

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#180
May 19, 2013
 

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Dave P wrote:
Agree Bobby. Have much more on this the next few days.
Rule #1 of "Evangelizing by the one TRUE churches" must be to alienate as many of the people you are trying to convert as possible. Our coc boys here do it very well. The RCC appears to be good at it as well.
Bringing the truth of beliefs out into the spotlight has a way of opening our eyes doesn't it?
Dave: Evangelizing by Protestants is be accepted as normal. Evangelizing by Catholics shocks people in the Bible belt.

"Catholics are that group that is normally considered not Christians and like I told Bobby are to be seen and not hear.

I hope bringing the Truth into the spotlight opens your eyes. That means a seed is being planted.

I am not sure what Church you go to but you say you preach there.

Are you not ready to say that you have the full Truth in your Church and you want everybody to join so everybody can go to heaven if they believe that, and not just for counting butts in the seat and if the collections are up or down.

I can't see if you don't think you have the total truth, why you stay in that Church?

I think the CC has the full truth. It is the only Church started by Jesus and the Apostles.

I want you, your family and your friends all to convert. It is awesome to eat the body and drink the blood of Christ. The feeling of leaving the confessional with the sacrament of penance is like being clean like a freshly bather baby.

You will hear more scripture read in on Mass that in month of a protestant Church. It truly is the real Bible Church.

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