Understanding the purpose of Baptism?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#121 May 15, 2013
What I am saying, shouldn’t what we do, be biblically sound/based? I see things in the RCC that are not taught in the revealed Word. If such were in practice, you would see it spoken of once the Bible was canonized. The Bible is void of YOUR sacred tradition. If such were going on, I find it very odd that nothing was wrote about it.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#122 May 15, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
Mike, since you firmly believe the Catholic Church to be THE CHURCH, do you know any Catholic willing to debate these issues on TV? The Church of Christ in the Martinsville VA area have live TV shows that air in 2 different States, plus the debate could be posted on YouTube. Matter of fact, the guy Mark on here, is one of the men who have a show on TV in Martinsville, VA.
I live further South. I don't anyone up there. You can search for Catholic Apologetics. One name I know is Robert Sungenis. Another is John Martignoni. There are many out there and growing as the hordes of Protestant Pastors and Theologians are crossing the Tiber. They are energizing evangelism in the Church.

I would ask just one question. Prove the COC was started at Pentecost by giving the name of person that belonged to the COC from 100 AD to 1800 AD

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#123 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I live further South. I don't anyone up there. You can search for Catholic Apologetics. One name I know is Robert Sungenis. Another is John Martignoni. There are many out there and growing as the hordes of Protestant Pastors and Theologians are crossing the Tiber. They are energizing evangelism in the Church.
I would ask just one question. Prove the COC was started at Pentecost by giving the name of person that belonged to the COC from 100 AD to 1800 AD
I’m very familiar John Martignoni. I’m on his mailing list and get his articles, debates. etc. I will Google Robert Sungenis. I seriously doubt any of the men would do a live debate in Martinsville.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#124 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I live further South. I don't anyone up there. You can search for Catholic Apologetics. One name I know is Robert Sungenis. Another is John Martignoni. There are many out there and growing as the hordes of Protestant Pastors and Theologians are crossing the Tiber. They are energizing evangelism in the Church.
I would ask just one question. Prove the COC was started at Pentecost by giving the name of person that belonged to the COC from 100 AD to 1800 AD
Currently, John Martignoni is discussing Matt Slick’s http://carm.org/matt-slick teaching which I find interesting because I disagree with both sides on certain issues. John’s arguments mirror your arguments pretty much.

Question: if you didn’t have the so-called Historical paths, where would you get sacred tradition?

I contend that the Bible contains all we need to know. The revealed Word mirrors the teachings of the apostles BEFORE the Word was canonized. You cannot find support for many RCC teachings- thus, I count them as dung. I believe the RCC to be a departure of the real Church which we read in revealed/inspired Scripture.
Mark

Danville, VA

#125 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Mark; I can give you the names of Catholics from now back to 1st Century.
I have asked this question to a number of COCs without an answer.
Please give one the name of one person in the COC that I can research that existed between 100 AD to 1800 AD.
If you cannot do this , you should stop saying the COC was created at Pentecost.
Every reliable historical source says the COC was create around 1800 by a former Methodist.
Prove me wrong with facts.
Jesus stated He would build "His church"
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Paul states the foundation is "Christ" (not Peter)
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Peter was an elder in the church of Christ.(not a "Pope" as Rcc teaches)

1Pe 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Peter was also married.(which the Rcc forbids of it's "Pope")
Mt 8:14 ¶ And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Jesus states, Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

If I want to grow California grapes in Virginia do I have to have a vine that stretches all the way from Virginia to California or couldn't I simply plant the same kind of seed and produce the same kind of grape?

I do not read of the word of God (the seed) ever producing a "Roman Catholic" "Baptist" "Methodist" etc. etc. etc.
The word of God (the seed) produces only one kind of fruit.

Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

"they were called Christians" (NOT Rcc)

Ac 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Paul almost persuaded Agrippa to become "a Christian" (NOT Rcc)

1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

The name which gives glory to God is "Christian" (NOT Rcc)

You my friend have the burden of proof to show this community where anyone in the New Testament of Gods word was ever referred to as a "Roman Catholic" I don't base my salvation on man made history books.
Mark

Danville, VA

#126 May 15, 2013
Earl Kiser wrote:
To Mark. I can trace my roots back to the apostles through history, can you? Point in history your Church.
Earl, you just lied and you know it.
The apostles NEVER were called "Roman Catholics" (Acts 11:26)
The apostles NEVER tried to persuade anyone to become "Roman Catholic" (Acts 26:28)
The apostles NEVER told anyone that the name that glorifies God is "Roman Catholic" (1Pet.4:16)

If you want to base your eternal salvation on man made history books that is fine but when they conflict with what the bible says that is where I draw the line.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#127 May 15, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus stated He would build "His church"
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Paul states the foundation is "Christ" (not Peter)
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Peter was an elder in the church of Christ.(not a "Pope" as Rcc teaches)
1Pe 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Peter was also married.(which the Rcc forbids of it's "Pope")
Mt 8:14 ¶ And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Jesus states, Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
If I want to grow California grapes in Virginia do I have to have a vine that stretches all the way from Virginia to California or couldn't I simply plant the same kind of seed and produce the same kind of grape?
I do not read of the word of God (the seed) ever producing a "Roman Catholic" "Baptist" "Methodist" etc. etc. etc.
The word of God (the seed) produces only one kind of fruit.
Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
"they were called Christians" (NOT Rcc)
Ac 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
Paul almost persuaded Agrippa to become "a Christian" (NOT Rcc)
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
The name which gives glory to God is "Christian" (NOT Rcc)
You my friend have the burden of proof to show this community where anyone in the New Testament of Gods word was ever referred to as a "Roman Catholic" I don't base my salvation on man made history books.
I don't know how to partial quote and respond but will try to respond to all.

1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the presbyters* among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Presbyters: the officially appointed leaders and teachers of the Christian community (cf. 1 Tm 5:17–18; Ti 1:5–8; Jas 5:14). PRIESTS

Peter was married? What happened to her. Only 2 things. She was dead because she is not mentioned, his mother-in-law was. Or Peter left her, because Jesus told the disciples to leave everything behind and follow him.

Are you trying to create a Parable for a Parable? That's weird and using verses in the wrong way.

11g “This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God.h 12Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. 14As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit. 15But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit through perseverance.

J
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#128 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Mark; I can give you the names of Catholics from now back to 1st Century.
I have asked this question to a number of COCs without an answer.
Please give one the name of one person in the COC that I can research that existed between 100 AD to 1800 AD.
If you cannot do this , you should stop saying the COC was created at Pentecost.
Every reliable historical source says the COC was create around 1800 by a former Methodist.
Prove me wrong with facts.
Get your history right Alexander Campbell and Thomas his father were Scottish Presbyterian, not a Methodist. They both were water baptized by a baptist preacher by the name of Mathias Luce.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#129 May 15, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus stated He would build "His church"
Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Paul states the foundation is "Christ" (not Peter)
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Peter was an elder in the church of Christ.(not a "Pope" as Rcc teaches)
1Pe 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Peter was also married.(which the Rcc forbids of it's "Pope")
Mt 8:14 ¶ And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Jesus states, Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
If I want to grow California grapes in Virginia do I have to have a vine that stretches all the way from Virginia to California or couldn't I simply plant the same kind of seed and produce the same kind of grape?
I do not read of the word of God (the seed) ever producing a "Roman Catholic" "Baptist" "Methodist" etc. etc. etc.
The word of God (the seed) produces only one kind of fruit.
Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
"they were called Christians" (NOT Rcc)
Ac 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
Paul almost persuaded Agrippa to become "a Christian" (NOT Rcc)
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
The name which gives glory to God is "Christian" (NOT Rcc)
You my friend have the burden of proof to show this community where anyone in the New Testament of Gods word was ever referred to as a "Roman Catholic" I don't base my salvation on man made history books.
Continued.

Jesus stated he would build 'His Churchs'

Mt16:18 18k And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Lets rewrite this in the way you want it to read and see how it sounds.

And I say to you, you are Peter and upon me I will build my Church. Why even mention Peter and even change his name from Cephas?

Christians? I don't see an issue. They are followers of Jesus' teachings.

Burden? First of the Bible is not the only word of God. It is the written word of God Paul said told Bishop Timothy to obey him from his letters and the traditions he taught him by.

The Church existed without a Bible for 350 years, 100 years longer than America has been a country. The CC created the Bible in 382 AD. The books of the NT is God's word because some Catholics, led by the Holy Spirit, voted on them at the Council of Rome. There were about 300 to pick from by then.

Church of Christ. The fact your founder, in 1800, found a verse with the words church and Christ in it to give him some leverage was pretty smart for a man made Church.

You don't base your salvation on history books because you can't.

Please just name one COC member from 100 AD to 1800 AD that can be researched. I have been asking COCs for a couple of years now. The only answer I got from one guy turned out to be a pagan Roman historian.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#130 May 15, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Get your history right Alexander Campbell and Thomas his father were Scottish Presbyterian, not a Methodist. They both were water baptized by a baptist preacher by the name of Mathias Luce.
You are right I had Methodist on my mind. I should have checked first. I am getting old.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#131 May 15, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right I had Methodist on my mind. I should have checked first. I am getting old.
I figured as much, I do the sane thing:-) Good thing our righteousness comes from Christ...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#132 May 15, 2013
I just thought of something interesting, having Mike on here unites the rest of us in a way that has never happened before. I even find myself agreeing with Mark.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#133 May 15, 2013
From Mark:
Earl, the church of Christ began on the day of Pentecost which you can read about in Acts chapter two...Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

This happened some three to six hundred years after Christ established His church. You cannot trace the Roman Catholic church back to Pentecost.

From Mike:
Mark; I can give you the names of Catholics from now back to 1st Century.

I have asked this question to a number of COCs without an answer.

Please give one the name of one person in the COC that I can research that existed between 100 AD to 1800 AD.

If you cannot do this , you should stop saying the COC was created at Pentecost.

Every reliable historical source says the COC was create around 1800 by a former Methodist.

Prove me wrong with facts.

From Earl Kiser:
To Mark. I can trace my roots back to the apostles through history, can you? Point in history your Church.

From Dave P to all involved parties-the above is an example of foolishness. First of all, the churches of Christ as we know them today started in the 1800s. Bobby knows "Restoration History" better than I do. The Campbells, Barton Stone, Walter Scott, Cane Ridge, Scottish Presbyterians, etc. Bobby is correct. For the modern coc to claim a line back to Pentecost is ridiculous and possibly dishonest, as many people know better. The church did begin at Pentecost; it is catholic or universal; but it isn't CATHOLIC nor is it the COC. All who obey the gospel are part of it.

To our catholic friends: no doubt you have the longest history-I will not dispute that, maybe orthodox will. But, what does it matter if you could trace your line back to Pentecost?

My line and heritage of faith goes WAY BEFORE Pentecost, Peter and the apostles. I am a son of Abraham according to Galatians 3:7. Some of my brothers and sisters are in Hebrews 11-Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Jacob, Moses and his parents, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and more. My family tree goes back to the beginning of history, not Pentecost. If you are in God's family, so does yours. Tracing a line back to Pentecost means nothing if you're not truly "in the family".

Read Paul's writings in Romans 9:6-8; and the comments of John the Baptist in Matthew 3:9. "Spiritual Heritage" and tracing history back to the apostles is the same kind of foolishness that brought judgment to OT Israel. Being a child of faith is what counts, not "I'm the oldest"! SMH.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#134 May 15, 2013
Mike P-1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the presbyters* among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Presbyters: the officially appointed leaders and teachers of the Christian community (cf. 1 Tm 5:17–18; Ti 1:5–8; Jas 5:14). PRIESTS

Peter was married? What happened to her. Only 2 things. She was dead because she is not mentioned, his mother-in-law was. Or Peter left her, because Jesus told the disciples to leave everything behind and follow him.

Let's use your terminology for a second. Peter was a presbyter, also called a bishop or an elder. You say Peter's wife either died or he left her. However, according to Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus, a bishop has to be "the husband of one wife". If Peter wasn't married when he wrote his first letter, he was scripturally unqualified to be a presbyter or elder. That, or catholic doctrine is wrong :)

I know which one I believe.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#135 May 16, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Both you and mike believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, is that statement that wrong?
Mike believes that the communion elements turns into the blood and body of Christ, is it true that you do not accept that teaching?
Both you and Mike believe that un confessed sin will send a person to hell, is that right? Both of you have different ideas of confession though. You confess in a prayer directly to the Father and Mike goes into a confessional booth and confesses to a catholic priest, is that right?
Do you believe that a person dies right after he is water baptized that he will have no sin to keep him out of heaven? Both you and Mike believe that.
So explain to me why you think my message is so far off base???
1. No Baptism is a necessary biblical condition for salvation, not mans condition Gods condition.

2. No I dont believe unconfessed sin will send one to hell.

3. The Father see no sin in the Christians life as Christ is the mercy seat. Confession of sin is to brothers and sisters.

4. I do not believe people have sin after baptism accounted to them. Paul was explained this in Acts.

5. You message does not match the bible.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#136 May 16, 2013
Sorry Bobby missed one No the bread and wine are not actually blood and flesh.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#137 May 16, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
1. No Baptism is a necessary biblical condition for salvation, not mans condition Gods condition.
2. No I dont believe unconfessed sin will send one to hell.
3. The Father see no sin in the Christians life as Christ is the mercy seat. Confession of sin is to brothers and sisters.
4. I do not believe people have sin after baptism accounted to them. Paul was explained this in Acts.
5. You message does not match the bible.
If you will admit it you agree more with Mike than you do with me. Both of you believe in a form of baptismal regeneration, with the difference being on the ways the baptism rite is administered. Both of you believe yours is the only true church...
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#138 May 16, 2013
Please pray for the tornado victims here in Texas!

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#139 May 16, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
If you will admit it you agree more with Mike than you do with me. Both of you believe in a form of baptismal regeneration, with the difference being on the ways the baptism rite is administered. Both of you believe yours is the only true church...
I really dont know nor care if I am closer to Bobby or Mike beliefs. I believe God has a special set apart people he calls his own and he did call it the church. The called out folk of God. They are described as, A royal Priesthood, Saints, a kingdom, a church, a body, And they were purchased by Christ himself.

Now you decide, if it is important for you, whom is closer in thoughts.

By the way I have no idea what the fancy word baptismal regeneration means, I do know what command the Christ made for me to be that special set apart people, and what it means to be that child of God.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#140 May 16, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Please pray for the tornado victims here in Texas!
NOrmally I find it hard to pray for Texans :), but in these cases it has been done.

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